How to commission a model locomotive ?

[brian777999]

I was not sure where to put this question and I apologise if this has been asked before : How does one commission a model locomotive ? Do they use the same factories as Bachmann and Hornby ? What sort of money would be required to even begin such a project ?

[Bernard Lamb]

This has been discussed on several threads.

Several companies advertise their facilities.

Try searching on Alibaba.

Bernard

[The Johnster]

Are we talking about commissioning a personal use finescale one-off for your own layout, built by a professional modeller, in which case it depends on how much money you have and how much of it you don't want any more in exchange for a high-spep loco, or a production run of models to be released on to the market at a price that will return a fair profit?  

[MarkSG]

Assuming we are talking about a product run commission, then the short answer is that if you have to ask, you aren't in a position to do it. There are plenty of Chinese (and other) factories that will produce a model to your design. But you will have to provide them with the design. And that is a huge part of the project.

 

That's why most retailer commissions aren't directly from the factory (although Hattons have moved in that direction with their Warwells). The first port of call, assuming you're not a designer yourself (and don't have the capabilities to scan a loco and provide the CAD files necessary to model it), would be one of the existing manufacturers that does commissions. Heljan, Dapol, Bachmann, DJM and Rapido are the most obvious choices there, although others may be interested. Tell them what you want, provide them with the money to make it, and they'll do it. There's nothing particularly rocket science about that; although it would be unusual for an individual or small organisation to commission something as pricey as a loco, wagon commissions are fairly common. Dapol even advertise themselves as a supplier of commissions on their website.

 

As for costs, well that's likely to be commercially confidential, so nobody who knows a precise figure is likely to tell you here. But to get a ballpark sum, look at any recent commission, take the number of models made and multiply by the RRP to give a total project budget. Of that, maybe 25% is what you'd need to fork out up front, the rest will be payable as the project unfolds - and, of course, part of the RRP is your profit.

Edited January 3, 2018 by MarkSG

[woodenhead]

If you read some of Dave Jones posts on his Crowdfunding threads you will get some idea of what is involved and some of the costs.

 

I'd say it takes a person with the ability to not only be able to manage the project but also have a good sense of commercial realities  - an eye for detail is one thing but too much of an eye will create a beautiful model but at an astronomical cost - an example is my favourite ex RMWeb member Adrian Swain of ABS models - he really has an eye for detail and as such his own models were highly regarded but he is unable to grasp some of the realities of mass market production that leads to compromises which he cannot accept.

[Edge]

All depends on what you're making.

 

If you're talking a brand new tank loco RTR at the moment would be somewhere in the region of £100,000 if covering a single tooling variant, but add several thousand each time you need to create a new tooling (e.g. certain members of the class had square windows). Medium tender locos would be somewhere around £130,000 and large tender locos could be up to £200,000 depending on spec. These are extreme ballpark figures, but they give some idea of the scope.

 

These apply to both OO and N incidentally.

 

If your commission is a wagon or new livery on a loco then the cost will be much lower. A few hundred to a few thousand for the wagons (depending on prototype and amount bought) and a few thousand for a special liveried locomotive.

 

In terms of who does it, Dave Jones at DJ Models appears to be the go to guy at the moment - he is dealing with a large number of commissions for various clients for both new toolings (O2, Beattie Will tank, Hattons 14xx, Steam Railmotor, Gate stock) and reliveries of his own stuff (Hattons' Austerity tanks) 

[HullCityB17]

Firstly I don't think you can commission one locomotive, wagon, or coach. You can only commission a batch of 250, 500, 1000 or something similar due to the high production costs. The more models you have made the cheaper the final cost should be depending how highly detailed the model is I guess.

Then there is all the designs, CAD & research. Molds that have to be produced and also pre-production model or test models that get produced and models that are made that end up rejected as no model is made 100% straight off the production line. Then you have to get colours and transfers the correct shade and in the correct position and need to be legible.

So, unless you are a Mulitmillionaire much like someone like Pete Waterman. You are prepared to risk vast amounts of money on a fantasy then, personally I wouldn't even think about it in a million years.

Personally I think Mr. Watermans Model Railway venture is very impressive. I don't have any connection to it or commissioning models.

[brian777999]

How are the molds made ? What sort of equipment is involved in that process ?

[Ozexpatriate]

Firstly I don't think you can commission one locomotive, wagon, or coach.

I'm sure you can - with the proviso that you are talking about a bespoke one off model, most likely made of brass by a professional model maker as described here:

 

Are we talking about commissioning a personal use finescale one-off for your own layout, built by a professional modeller, in which case it depends on how much money you have ...

[Ozexpatriate]

How are the molds made ? What sort of equipment is involved in that process ?

You appear to be asking about commercial plastic injection moulding. The process of making the tools (dies) for high volume plastics is something you will only find in a contract manufacturer of die-cast plastics. They are usually made of steel, but sometimes might include softer metal inserts (like aluminium) for particular details. Modifying the tools to correct errors is quite challenging. Scrapping them and starting over is very expensive.

 

Here's a basic Wikipedia page. A lot of expertise is required, not just to have the right shape, but to make sure the plastic flows and the tools release properly. The castings have to be designed, not just with the outside shape in mind, but to have structural integrity in the casting, release and assembly process.

 

I encourage you to look at Jason Shron's blogs for his Rapido Trains company. Jason often talks about (and provides photographs of) the tooling process in the Chinese companies that he collaborates with to build models for Rapido Trains. This one contains a photograph of the Royal Hudson tooling.

 

Depending on what you are casting there are many different moulding materials. If you are using white low melting point metals the very old school, traditional method is sand casting.

 

For low volume applications, 3D printing is becoming a viable alternative. The finish of 3D printed objects remains quite inferior to that obtained in commercial injection moulding but is significantly more accessible and easy to fix errors in the design.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[F-UnitMad]

So, unless you are a Mulitmillionaire much like someone like Pete Waterman...

It might be an 'urban myth' anecdote, but I think Pete Waterman has been quoted as saying that "the best way to make £1m in the model railway business is to start off with £10m..."

[LBRJ]

Assuming we are talking about a product run commission, then the short answer is that if you have to ask, you aren't in a position to do it.

 

Not true

I could do it ...but .....erm as F unit Mad says above me

[HullCityB17]

Not true

I could do it ...but .....erm as F unit Mad says above me

Well surely if that was the case then wouldn't you be already be creating commissions for people or in fact creating your own models?

[tomparryharry]

People shouldn't always appear negative. The engineers first mantra is "remove the phrase cant be done".

 

Funny really. A lot of people have said this down the years. yet, here we are...

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Sir TophamHatt]

...or a production run of models to be released on to the market at a price that will return a fair profit?  

 

If I had the money to do all the donkey work, I'd not be bothered about profit.

I'm more interested about getting that particular train on the layout than earning money from it, when taking into account the comissioning of locomotives.

[Clearwater]

If I had the money to do all the donkey work, I'd not be bothered about profit.

I'm more interested about getting that particular train on the layout than earning money from it, when taking into account the comissioning of locomotives.

If that’s your objective, you’re better off commissioning a loco builder to make the kit for you!

[Sir TophamHatt]

Ha ha - true.

But then if I wanted to make a fair bit of money, I'd buy an ice-cream van.

[rue_d_etropal]

People shouldn't always appear negative. The engineers first mantra is "remove the phrase cant be done".

 

Funny really. A lot of people have said this down the years. yet, here we are...

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

IAlthough sales people I have worke with would disagree I have actually found it better to be slightly negative, then go away and actually come up with something.

I find that if you promise someone you can produce something(I used to work in IT), and then don't manage to do so, the other person is not happy, and feels let down. They might be a bit disappointed initially when you say something is not possible, but are really pleased when you turn up with what they want, and chances are you will be asked again.

[alfsboy]

Its easy .You find a manufacturer or middle man who can smooth the journey .Plonk down your fiver and demand thats its delivered next month with every tiny detail included  and  fully  adjustable  track gauge  .iI you think that is daft ...try reading some  pugnacious overblown self important demands  on  this noble forum .Yeee ha.

[jjb1970]

For small batch production resin is a viable alternative to injection moulded plastic as it slashes cost, is doable without a lot of capital investment in equipment and the building expertise to use it and can give very good results. 3D printing is now pretty good too. Or, brass. There are still some brass manufacturers in South Korea and China capable of working to extraordinarily high standards, not cheap but for small more viable than trying to go down the plastic RTR route. If you just want a model for yourself then as others have said, commission a professional model builder to make you one. That may be expensive but it'll be a lot cheaper than trying to get into the model commissioning business.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Not true

I could do it ...but .....erm as F unit Mad says above me

Well surely if that was the case then wouldn't you be already be creating commissions for people or in fact creating your own models?

Not if already satisfactorily invested in a different business with relevant developed expertise in the technology, production, market, distribution, retailers, customer expectations, competitor positions, yada, yada, yada. If it ain't broke....

 

The biggest risk I would perceive is duplicating an item another business has well underway. Lacking their established position in the market, near total loss of investment could result. Before spending a penny I would want to spend a lot of time sounding out what other's plans might be, to de-risk the project as much as possible.