Nottingham station fire

[Ken.W]

Wires down at KX made this impossible today. Major disruption at KX until Sunday morning for OHLE repairs.

A pair of 313s managed to entangle themselves in the wires in Hornsey's Down platform.

Took half an hour from Finsbury Park into Kings X, 5 of the main-line platforms occupied by GN sets dumped after their services cancelled, so nothing else could get in,had to wait of other trains departing.

[great central]

In the days of old London passengers would be told to travel by Grantham when the MML had problems but I suppose in todays wonderful privatised highly broken up and disjointed railway such a simple solution has long been forgotten.

I think a simple search on EMT website or other social media would have found the answer to your comment. Ticket restrictions lifted and travel by pretty much any operator and route!!!

Tickets also valid tomorrow or available for refund, even non-refundable ones due to the serious nature of the disruption.

Some people are very quick to condemn things on social media yet a simple search on the very same platforms (!) can show their condemnation is at best ill judged. The railway and businesses around Nottingham station have pulled together magnificently today in my experience, not to mention the emergency services for a prompt response which limited, although serious, the damage.

[Gwiwer]

NR currently expressing hope that a limited or possibly full XC service will be possible from (an unspecified time on) Saturday morning but with no disabled access nor any of the normal station facilities. Subject to safety checks at this stage. No suggestion of EMT returning just yet.

[runs as required]

I do hope the recently refurbished Grade II faience tiled station frontage hasn't been compromised by the fire. It must be a weighty construction carried on a substantial,( I assume, given the building date), metal girder structure.

The street level station frontage would be a huge loss to Nottingham, whereas new design platform buildings might improve passenger  experience rather like the relationship between new and old at Kings+

 

dh

[RThompson]

There was a limited service run by XC between Beeston and Derby on Friday with a class 170 as I was sent down to deal with some of the replacement bus services, but not driving for a change. Unfortunately my planned postage of orders went out the window and this happens quite often for me.

Edited January 13, 2018 by RThompson

[roythebus]

Various railway FB groups report platforms 1-5 open but with no lifts available and limited passenger facilities, delays possible to all services for a couple of days more due to stock and crews being in the wrong places.

[melmerby]

Various railway FB groups report platforms 1-5 open but with no lifts available and limited passenger facilities, delays possible to all services for a couple of days more due to stock and crews being in the wrong places.

Platforms 1 to 5 are indeed open as viewing any of the train tracking websites will show.

 

Plenty of delays and some cancellations

Train 1R66 booked for platform 7 was held at signals until platform 3 was clear.

 

Keith

Edited January 13, 2018 by melmerby

[Gwiwer]

That is a remarkable recovery from a serious situation. Clearly it will be some time until full repairs are effcted but at least it is possible to travel to or from the station again within 24 hours of the fire breaking out. Full credit due to all involved.

[pete_mcfarlane]

The Evening post has some photos from inside the station. 

http://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/nottingham-train-station-fire-open-1047660

[Mallard60022]

Think this displays the exacting conditions Firefighters deal with. Meanwhile Notts CC are attempting to reduce many Stations (note Fire Stations) staffing to 'on call' and not full time. If this was 'deliberate' (rather than randomly stupid) Arson then all the more thought needs to go into staff reductions in Emergency Services.

Phil 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Think this displays the exacting conditions Firefighters deal with. Meanwhile Notts CC are attempting to reduce many Stations (note Fire Stations) staffing to 'on call' and not full time. If this was 'deliberate' (rather than randomly stupid) Arson then all the more thought needs to go into staff reductions in Emergency Services.

Phil

At the risk of straying into politics, the same is going on in Derbyshire. If the authorities get there way there will be no full time fire cover in Glossop and probably Matlock as well. Estimated response time for our area will be 13 to 14 minutes. If you crash your car on the Snake and need to be rescued it will be longer as they have to go past us.

When my Dad was a fireman about 50 years ago you were in trouble if you didn't get to the furthest end of your patch in under 8 minutes when the Home Office Inspector called.

[runs as required]

At the risk of straying into politics, the same is going on in Derbyshire. If the authorities get there way there will be no full time fire cover in Glossop ....

When my Dad was a fireman about 50 years ago you were in trouble if you didn't get to the furthest end of your patch in under 8 minutes when the Home Office Inspector called.

The most exciting badge to get in the 1st Taxal, Whaley Bridge Scout troop (within the dark Peak) in the late 40s early 50s was the Fireman's badge.

Our 'village' Fire Station was incredibly welcoming ; they allowed us young lads all manner and kind of (probably now deemed far too dangerous) experiences.

dh

[phil-b259]

At the risk of straying into politics, the same is going on in Derbyshire. If the authorities get there way there will be no full time fire cover in Glossop and probably Matlock as well. Estimated response time for our area will be 13 to 14 minutes. If you crash your car on the Snake and need to be rescued it will be longer as they have to go past us.

When my Dad was a fireman about 50 years ago you were in trouble if you didn't get to the furthest end of your patch in under 8 minutes when the Home Office Inspector called.

 

Fire authorities are mainly funded by Council tax payers. As we all know low council tax (and below inflation increases) are held up as the pinnacle of good governance by the media and Political parties - which ignores the reality that if average inflation is X, then it must increase by at least that amount every year if Council tax funded services are to remain at previous levels.

 

In short, if you are that aggrieved by cuts to fire service provision, I assume you will have equal destain for those who caused the situation in the first place by peddling the 'low tax' c**p - and would have no problem with increases in Council Tax to maintain previous levels of cover?

[The Stationmaster]

Think this displays the exacting conditions Firefighters deal with. Meanwhile Notts CC are attempting to reduce many Stations (note Fire Stations) staffing to 'on call' and not full time. If this was 'deliberate' (rather than randomly stupid) Arson then all the more thought needs to go into staff reductions in Emergency Services.

Phil 

 

I don't think there's much wrong with Retained Firemen to be honest but it really relates to the time they have to get to a call which comes down to the area they cover.  We have always had a Retained Fire Service locally (and my father was part of it for several decades) and they could usually get the engine out within 4-5 minutes, at most, of being called with a crew large enough to tackle most jobs which a single engine would attend.  In fact if we go back a few decades they successfully tackled, without any casualties being incurred by themselves or people caught by the fire, a large hotel fire, another in a large (for those days ) block of flats, the old gasworks going up, and a carpet warehouse going up - all without assistance being brought in from the nearest full time station (7 miles away).

 

Today they are also on standby to act as additional cover for major incidents over quite a wide area - definitely up to 20 miles away although that is nothing compared with what they covered during the last war when they went as far afield as Southampton, Birmingham, Coventry and London to name just some of the places they attended during the blitz.

[Titan]

but I suppose in todays wonderful privatised highly broken up and disjointed railway such a simple solution has long been forgotten.

 

The response by the railway has been superb. I hope that Butler Henderson, and jonny777 who agreed are eating a big portion of humble pie!

 

I was at Derby at 07.55 or thereabouts that morning intending to travel to Birmingham and contingency plans were already kicking in to good effect. Busses were starting to arrive at the rear entrance, which is well suited to getting quickly on to the A52 dual carriageway direct to Nottingham. Cross country services were terminating at Derby, and the 170's being doubled up to six cars to offer extra capacity. An extra voyager was found, as well to supplement the 170's, presumably coming from the depot near Burton on Trent.

 

I think at that time some of the East Midlands Nottingham trains had also been diverted to Derby - basically Derby was heaving with arriving/departing trains.

 

East Midlands parkway is now certainly earning its keep. Four Mainline platforms and very easy access for busses straight on to the A453 dual carriageway direct to Nottingham, means that only a small delay for Nottingham passengers from here will be incurred, whilst relieving pressure on the platforms in Nottingham and allowing what must be pretty much a normal service from Derby now.

 

I fail to see how this response could possibly have been bettered, it certainly could not have been achieved in BR days as they did not have the benefit of East Midlands parkway!

Edited January 13, 2018 by Titan

[Mallard60022]

I don't think there's much wrong with Retained Firemen to be honest but it really relates to the time they have to get to a call which comes down to the area they cover.  We have always had a Retained Fire Service locally (and my father was part of it for several decades) and they could usually get the engine out within 4-5 minutes, at most, of being called with a crew large enough to tackle most jobs which a single engine would attend.  In fact if we go back a few decades they successfully tackled, without any casualties being incurred by themselves or people caught by the fire, a large hotel fire, another in a large (for those days ) block of flats, the old gasworks going up, and a carpet warehouse going up - all without assistance being brought in from the nearest full time station (7 miles away).

 

Today they are also on standby to act as additional cover for major incidents over quite a wide area - definitely up to 20 miles away although that is nothing compared with what they covered during the last war when they went as far afield as Southampton, Birmingham, Coventry and London to name just some of the places they attended during the blitz.

Of course. However Retford for example is part of the A1 response group. The problem up here is with the response times, especially in rural areas, recruitment and also lack of suitable equipment along with lack of consultation about where sensible modifications to cover can be made. Nottinghamshire is not a 'wealthy area' and so the problem is not easily solved. However this is political and that is the end of my comments. about this.

I understand that huge effort is being put into sorting services locally. The Robin Hood Line is where I would be interested in seeing how they make arrangements as Hucknall is a Tram Terminus for the City.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Fire authorities are mainly funded by Council tax payers. As we all know low council tax (and below inflation increases) are held up as the pinnacle of good governance by the media and Political parties - which ignores the reality that if average inflation is X, then it must increase by at least that amount every year if Council tax funded services are to remain at previous levels.

 

In short, if you are that aggrieved by cuts to fire service provision, I assume you will have equal destain for those who caused the situation in the first place by peddling the 'low tax' c**p - and would have no problem with increases in Council Tax to maintain previous levels of cover?

Correct.

Phil

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

In short, if you are that aggrieved by cuts to fire service provision, I assume you will have equal destain for those who caused the situation in the first place by peddling the 'low tax' c**p - and would have no problem with increases in Council Tax to maintain previous levels of cover?

Yes and Yes.

 

They've already wrecked our police to the extent that we have 2xPC  to cover an area of over 20,000 people. That's probably less than 50% of what it needs to give one team on duty 24/7. 

 

No further comments as I will start a political rant.

[duncan]

My brother lives in the deep country with the retained fire station 200 yds from the medical practice.  The requirement is 4 staff for the fire engine, which gave a problem when only 3 were able to arrive when the surgery fire alarm went off (false alarm).  They could not attend on pain of loosing their jobs.  The next station is over 30 (car) minutes along a single track road.

 

Whether they would be prepared to turn out an undermanned engine in a genuine emergency is another matter and possibly risk their own lives as under-crewed.

[62613]

Correct.

Phil

 

Fire authorities are mainly funded by Council tax payers. As we all know low council tax (and below inflation increases) are held up as the pinnacle of good governance by the media and Political parties - which ignores the reality that if average inflation is X, then it must increase by at least that amount every year if Council tax funded services are to remain at previous levels.

 

In short, if you are that aggrieved by cuts to fire service provision, I assume you will have equal destain for those who caused the situation in the first place by peddling the 'low tax' c**p - and would have no problem with increases in Council Tax to maintain previous levels of cover?

It's not so much Council Tax as central grant cuts. The majority of local government funds came from central government, at one point I believe as much as 85% in some cases. Over the last seven years this has been progressively withdrawn; the government would like to withdraw all central support by 2020. Meanwhile, Council Tax increases have been capped by law; if a local authority wants to increase its CT by more than 2% they have to hold a referendum of their CT payers. The increase last year of 6% was hypothecated on spending the increase for social care, and there wouldn't have been an increase at all this year or next.

[pete_mcfarlane]

The local MP has posted some photos on Facebook (which you should be able to see without an account). 

 

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10155404890666848&id=632526847

 

I've also seen a photo elsewhere of the 'smoke damage' to the footbridge which showed the pre-existing black marks caused by HST exhausts..... 

 

It's not so much Council Tax as central grant cuts. The majority of local government funds came from central government, at one point I believe as much as 85% in some cases. Over the last seven years this has been progressively withdrawn; the government would like to withdraw all central support by 2020. Meanwhile, Council Tax increases have been capped by law; if a local authority wants to increase its CT by more than 2% they have to hold a referendum of their CT payers. The increase last year of 6% was hypothecated on spending the increase for social care, and there wouldn't have been an increase at all this year or next.

 

The other problem with Nottingham is the large numbers of students living in the city centre, who don't pay council tax (and displace those who do) whilst placing greater demands on public services (more rubbish from multiple occupancy houses, more anti-social behaviour to be dealt with). Central Government makes up this difference in income to a certain point, but this has also gone down in recent years. I've not seem any solution to this beyond party political driven moaning at central Government. 

[Edwin_m]

The other problem with Nottingham is the large numbers of students living in the city centre, who don't pay council tax (and displace those who do) whilst placing greater demands on public services (more rubbish from multiple occupancy houses, more anti-social behaviour to be dealt with). Central Government makes up this difference in income to a certain point, but this has also gone down in recent years. I've not seem any solution to this beyond party political driven moaning at central Government. 

I'd say this is more part of the wider issue with Nottingham, the tightly-drawn boundary.  Many of the suburbs that the casual observer might think were in Nottingham are actually in Broxtowe or Rushcliffe, so compared to other cities Nottingham tends to have more than its fair share of "inner city" issues without some of the more affluent areas that would top up the coffers with council tax.  This also shows up in things like crime statistics, making it difficult to compare Nottingham with other places.  There are probably just as many students in other cities but again they would be over-counted as a percentage of the population of the city area.  This also means, incidentally, that the urban area of Nottingham is at least twice the population of Derby or Leicester (and much more by some measures) despite all three councils having similar populations. 

[jonny777]

The response by the railway has been superb. I hope that Butler Henderson, and jonny777 who agreed are eating a big portion of humble pie!

 

 

 

 

 

Not particularly, although I do like pies. 

 

My 'agree' was to the simplicity of the alternative route (Nottingham having two main stations in the past), but then I thought that the train from Marylebone would have originally gone over the GC bridge at Midland on its way to Victoria and that might not have been allowed even in those days with a fire so close. 

 

However, if people wish to get personal and play some kind of one-upmanship card on these threads, then that has been duly noted. 

Edited January 14, 2018 by jonny777

[Butler Henderson]

No need for humble pie IME. I've encountered far too many unnecessary bus trips IMO since privatisation when there has been a clear diversionary route available but not utilised, Good to see services restored quickly although intrigued as to why 5, along with 6, was out of use - damage to overbridge above?

[62613]

The local MP has posted some photos on Facebook (which you should be able to see without an account). 

 

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10155404890666848&id=632526847

 

I've also seen a photo elsewhere of the 'smoke damage' to the footbridge which showed the pre-existing black marks caused by HST exhausts..... 

 

 

The other problem with Nottingham is the large numbers of students living in the city centre, who don't pay council tax (and displace those who do) whilst placing greater demands on public services (more rubbish from multiple occupancy houses, more anti-social behaviour to be dealt with). Central Government makes up this difference in income to a certain point, but this has also gone down in recent years. I've not seem any solution to this beyond party political driven moaning at central Government. 

But it's perfectly legitimate to moan at central government withdrawing part of local government's income, then restricting their ability to make up the difference, especially when central government has at the same time loaded local government with extra responsibilities. The services (libraries, parks, etc.,) should still be provided, we all think, but as they're non-essential services, they go first, so that the mandatory ones (e.g., social care) can be maintained.