Another lets have ago at Virgin

[Oldddudders]

But if no-one will enforce it what is the point

 

And there are oodles of byelaws, railway and otherwise, which never get enforced. ISTR a BR byelaw forbidding playing of musical instruments on railway property, obviously that extended in modern parlance to transistor radios, ghetto blasters etc. . Yet every traincrew messroom in recent years had a tv. 

['CHARD]

But if no-one will enforce it what is the point

 

I get that loud and clear. And here's an example from this morning why more often than not everybody, traincrew included, choose to turn the other cheek.

 

First off peak service between two provincial cities, a relatively full 2-car train - probably 70% occupancy.

 

On departure, loud 'grime/ rap' sounds start up.  Blank it out for a minute or two, then it's clearly not an ignored ring-tone or a mistake plugging-in earphones.  Turn round to see where and who it's from - can't identify the source. 

 

It continues, with short breaks as the person skips tracks, for a good fifteen minutes.  By this time another passenger has clearly had enough and swaps carriages.  I stand up at this point and look behind me, more intently this time. 

 

I'm fixed with the returning feral stare of a young woman whose partner is the 'music' fan.  The look was so 'out-there' it was chilling.  He starts muttering, but helpfully his phone rings - pausing the noise.  He takes the call, and without any sense of awareness, conducts a conversation on speaker-phone with his mum/ probation lady/ 'cousin'-sister* during which he says:

 

'Some **** just looked at me on the train, if he does it again I'll ****** shank the ****.' 

 

Now I don't shock easily, but I found this alarming.  The entire rest of the carriage was suddenly absorbed in its own business.  It felt than any escalation would be yours truly against feral couple, not great odds.  He then sauntered off to the toilet whence the whole train filled with a fug of skunk.  My zero tolerance of narcotics is well known as a career railwayperson, but this was simply not the time. He subsequently lurked in the vestibule, with the music at a reduced volume.  I would place good money on his being off on a visit to a magistrates' appointment in Nottingham.

 

 

 

'shank' - verb - 'To violently stab someone with the intent of causing serious damage.' (Source - Urban Dictionary)

 

 

* choose any

[Killybegs]

There's also the knock on effect. I was on a train last week. An elderly couple got on to find their reserved seats taken. The incumbents refused to move so they came and sat in a couple of free seats behind me. At the next stop a middle aged couple got on and told the elderly couple to get out of their seats. The latter explained the situation but the newcomers were having none of it and became quite abusive. The elderly couple were therefore forced to try and find another pair of seats on a crowded train.

[caradoc]

Chard and Killybegs highlight the problem challenging anyone whose behaviour on a train (or elsewhere) is wrong; You can never know whether they are a decent person who has made a simple mistake or a nutter who will assault you as soon as look at you. Regarding reserved seats occupied by someone else, the on-train staff should sort this out on being made aware, but what they can do if someone simply refuses to move, I'm not sure, and I don't envy anyone having to remonstrate with such people for the reason above. Perhaps the modern day solution is to take their photo and threaten to shame them on Facebook, Twitter etc, but even that act could result in violence.

['CHARD]

Chard and Killybegs highlight the problem challenging anyone whose behaviour on a train (or elsewhere) is wrong; You can never know whether they are a decent person who has made a simple mistake or a nutter who will assault you as soon as look at you. Regarding reserved seats occupied by someone else, the on-train staff should sort this out on being made aware, but what they can do if someone simply refuses to move, I'm not sure, and I don't envy anyone having to remonstrate with such people for the reason above. Perhaps the modern day solution is to take their photo and threaten to shame them on Facebook, Twitter etc, but even that act could result in violence.

 

I formed the impression that had I turned my phone in their direction, it would have been kicked from my hand with instantaneous fury.  I was in text contact with a friend throughout, to whom I owe gratitude for basically recommending that I remain calm and not engage.

 

My ultimate reflection on these denizens of the wastes of Kyle* was that by assuming the role of 'Entertainment Captain' for the carriage, this pathetic specimen was exerting control over one situation, whereas in the entire remainder of his life, everything was resolutely outwith his control.

 

 

 

* Jeremy Kyle

[LBRJ]

One does have to ask the question (well I do) as to where on earth the Guard is hiding during these incidents? Though given that we are talking about Branson Rail maybe the job title is now Transit Host /  Hostess?

 

In times when the role itself is under threat one would think it was the best time to show what "safety" really means on a daily basis.

['CHARD]

One does have to ask the question (well I do) as to where on earth the Guard is hiding during these incidents? Though given that we are talking about Branson Rail maybe the job title is now Transit Host /  Hostess?

 

In times when the role itself is under threat one would think it was the best time to show what "safety" really means on a daily basis.

 

On the above occasion, the train was late running and carrying 1 1/2 services' worth of pax.  The ''guard' undertook his revenue protection duties diligently, but whilst he was so-doing, this nearby herbert had muted his entertainment. 

 

They were travelling on valid tickets as well, so didn't draw any adverse.

[phil-b259]

One does have to ask the question (well I do) as to where on earth the Guard is hiding during these incidents? Though given that we are talking about Branson Rail maybe the job title is now Transit Host /  Hostess?

 

In times when the role itself is under threat one would think it was the best time to show what "safety" really means on a daily basis.

 

And what exactly is the Guard supposed to do when faced with an uncooperative passenger?* - they are not Police officers complete with CS spray and the right to manhandle persons suspected of wrongdoing.

 

A search through various industry reports will show that spitting, threats, punches and sometimes more violent actions are not unknown against traincrew who are trying to enforce the rules.

 

* Other than request BTP attendance - and realistically they won't be bothered unless said passenger refuses to buy a ticket, actually assaults someone or could be considered a terrorist threat.

 

Some stats

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwix1az0k6PZAhWILsAKHfeeBA0QFgg4MAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.networkrail.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F11%2FStation-staff-assaults-2015-16.xlsx&usg=AOvVaw3CRHmGUL1p6H9fPefKriGD

[LBRJ]

And what exactly is the Guard supposed to do when faced with an uncooperative passenger?* - they are not Police officers complete with CS spray and the right to manhandle persons suspected of wrongdoing.

 

A search through various industry reports will show that spitting, threats, punches and sometimes more violent actions are not unknown against traincrew who are trying to enforce the rules.

 

* Other than request BTP attendance - and realistically they won't be bothered unless said passenger refuses to buy a ticket, actually assaults someone or could be considered a terrorist threat.

 

Some stats

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwix1az0k6PZAhWILsAKHfeeBA0QFgg4MAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.networkrail.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F11%2FStation-staff-assaults-2015-16.xlsx&usg=AOvVaw3CRHmGUL1p6H9fPefKriGD

 

Dealing with highly uncooperative passengers is part of the job, I suppose what you may call a skill is how you do that.

 

I have witnessed the hostility and threats of violence, waving of bottles towards Guards; hell I even know one guy who was mugged on his own train at knifepoint ! ( at Burnage 1999ish)

But somebody has to attempt to maintain order as best as possible and that someone should be the Guard, not leave the Px to sort themselves out

[phil-b259]

Dealing with highly uncooperative passengers is part of the job, I suppose what you may call a skill is how you do that.

 

I have witnessed the hostility and threats of violence, waving of bottles towards Guards; hell I even know one guy who was mugged on his own train at knifepoint ! ( at Burnage 1999ish)

But somebody has to attempt to maintain order as best as possible and that someone should be the Guard, not leave the Px to sort themselves out

 

However as noted in post 32 the Guard actually had no cause to do anything in this case, as the individual in question turned their music down when the Guard was about and had a valid ticket. If, as was suspected said person was on their way to court then it wouldn't go down well to end up in trouble with officialdom as it were.

Edited February 13, 2018 by phil-b259

[royaloak]

On my facebook page yesterday a picture of a sight impaired person with his dog came up ,he was sitting in the vestibule and proceeded to slag off Branson for allowing him to travel this way.Turned out the conductor had failed to clear the appropriate seating area for him because passengers would not move ,but I could see an empty seat in the coach behind him.Most of the replies were having a go at Branson but I pointed out that if he was on advance ticket with seat reservation or a walk on with the same he had the seat by right. Had he forwarned the operator of his needs and had he done the same to the station.    If no seat was available in standard I would have thought he would have the oportunity to go to first class but he obviously chose to have a rant about Branson as though he was on the train. Quite a few posters said they did not believe him and said he had no need to sit in the vestibule.

If only you were there to resolve the matter!

[The Stationmaster]

And what exactly is the Guard supposed to do when faced with an uncooperative passenger?* - they are not Police officers complete with CS spray and the right to manhandle persons suspected of wrongdoing.

 

A search through various industry reports will show that spitting, threats, punches and sometimes more violent actions are not unknown against traincrew who are trying to enforce the rules.

 

* Other than request BTP attendance - and realistically they won't be bothered unless said passenger refuses to buy a ticket, actually assaults someone or could be considered a terrorist threat.

 

Some stats

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwix1az0k6PZAhWILsAKHfeeBA0QFgg4MAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.networkrail.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F11%2FStation-staff-assaults-2015-16.xlsx&usg=AOvVaw3CRHmGUL1p6H9fPefKriGD

 

I agree re potential threat (and actual attacks or injuries to railway staff who were simply doing their job) but the Guard, or any authorised person has every right to request the person to move, to take details of their name and address if it is believed a Byelaw offence has been committed and the miscreant 'may be removed by an authorised person using reasonable force'.  In other words the Gurard, Conductor or any other aunthorised person is wholly within the provisions of the Byelaws if they chose to eject the miscreant from the train at its next stop.

 

Many times I'm sure staff won't do it out of a sense of self-preservation (wholly understandably) but they have the power to do it - if they happen to know the Byelaws of course.

[Bernard Lamb]

Rock and a hard place. If you open up first class to others, is the first-class-fare-payer entitled to a refund? He/she might well think so. 

 

London Midland always did. That is why I asked the question.

At what point does safety hold sway over upsetting a few people who pay the premium fare?

Bernard

[LBRJ]

Byelaw V was or  still is the handy cover all one for scrote removal.

 

"No person shall enter or remain on the Railway if, in the reasonable opinion of an Authorised Person he is in an unfit or improper condition........."

Edited February 13, 2018 by LBRJ

[dunwurken]

Does anyone know if the 61016 number to report matters to BTP is London only or does it apply throughout the UK.

It would have come in handy a year or so ago when a drunk oil rig worker dropped his trousers in front of young kids near Dundee. Guard spoke to the guy but he was too wasted to care. No sign of BTP at Dundee. Presumably if they had been called train or witnesses would have been delayed whilst statements taken.

Do all guards not carry a mobile phone with which they could contact BTP direct?

Malcolm

[great central]

Does anyone know if the 61016 number to report matters to BTP is London only or does it apply throughout the UK.

It would have come in handy a year or so ago when a drunk oil rig worker dropped his trousers in front of young kids near Dundee. Guard spoke to the guy but he was too wasted to care. No sign of BTP at Dundee. Presumably if they had been called train or witnesses would have been delayed whilst statements taken.

Do all guards not carry a mobile phone with which they could contact BTP direct?

Malcolm

Yes they do respond and quickly. A colleague sent them a message about something. Quickly followed by a returned phone call and follow up action.

Regarding other comments, yes we may have bylaws on our side but,................

Won't say anything more

[lmsforever]

Yes London Midland were very good at refunds ,was going to the NEC couple of years back in first class but the guard declassed it at Rugby people round me looked miffed but when I reached home emailed with details and recieved refund a week later.But noticed many times standard class passengers got in to first and were a damned nuisance as first joynees at later stations often had to stand.

[MarkC]

It's worse now on some trains where seats can be reserved after the train's set off. You can sit down at an unreserved seat and someone will come along later and expect you to move. I can see that one getting nasty at some point, if it hasn't already. If it's paper tickets and there's nothing there I'd probably move if someone showed me they had a reservation for a seat I was in but no ticket, people do sometimes go and pull them out. Moving for someone with a genuine need for a seat's a different matter altogether, just basic good manners.

 

This is a VERY BAD IDEA - and should have been kicked into the long grass as soon as some clever person dreamed it up

 

[Bernard Lamb]

Yes London Midland were very good at refunds ,was going to the NEC couple of years back in first class but the guard declassed it at Rugby people round me looked miffed but when I reached home emailed with details and recieved refund a week later.But noticed many times standard class passengers got in to first and were a damned nuisance as first joynees at later stations often had to stand.

 

It does depend on the actual journey.

Very few people travel from the last two stops going into Euston so it is hardly going to deprive many, if any, people of a seat.

Allowing say twenty people to stand in the first class area does make a heck of a difference to passenger comfort when there are well over a hundred people standing in a four coach train.

Jobsworths will always be jobsworths I suppose. But in this day and age I would hope that a more enlightened attitude would prevail.

A good job I am not a candle stick maker !

Bernard 

Bernard.

[Mad McCann]

61016 will work across the UK since BTP has a single control centre in Birmingham. The biggest problem BTP has always faced has been small numbers. It was always something that annoyed the front line personnel as it meant we weren't always able to provide the service people expected. For example, I could often be the only officer on duty in my station area and if I was already committed to an incident or investigation, I clearly wouldn't be able to attend a subsequent call. In those situations, we were forced to rely on a first response from the local force and of course with them also under staffing level pressures and heavy commitments there was no guarantee that their assistance would be available either.

[chrisd]

Being an infrequent traveller nowadays and usually EXD-PAD accompanied by young family, can someone please explain to me the status of the paper reservation slips in the back of the seat? Does everything hinge on them? Does having a seat reservation on a ticket not mean anything?

 

A couple of weeks ago we were heading back from a weekend in London with reservations for 4 of us, including 2 young children, around a table. Sunday afternoon. Kept waiting for a platform to be displayed until 3 minutes before scheduled departure, although I correctly guessed the platform from the PA calls going out for the (missing?) train manager to report to platform 8! Battling through the ensuing melee, we finally got ourselves settled in the correct seats. A glance at the paper reservations however indicated that they were all for the up train; our seats having been reserved from Taunton to Paddington. Sat waiting for 15 minutes to then be told that the front end of our HST was beyond repair and that we were all needed on platform 1 immediately.

 

Now it’s not that easy to persuade a 4 and 5 year old that they need to get all dressed up again, put away the sticker books and jump off the train again to run around the station. Hence we were one of the last to board the replacement train. Entering our coach, we saw a few familiar faces from 10 minutes before, but not the couple happily ensconced at our table. When politely asked to vacate, they pointed out the lack of reservation cards as proof that they could sit there. After some heated discussion, we eventually won the day, but I still can’t understand how they thought the reservation tickets would be correct on the replacement service with 5 minutes notice if they weren’t even correct on the original set.

 

So what is the meaning of these bits of paper stuck in the seat? Information only? Doesn’t a reservation in your ticket count for anything?

Edited February 13, 2018 by chrisd

[brianusa]

Incidents like these mentioned will never be solved especially in fixed rake trains.  The only solution would be to add another rake which would be anathema to the railway company, even if one could be found.  Its nothing new, such problems were around when another coach or two could be shunted on the back but still a lot of time there were standees taking up room in the corridor.  Nowadays such things as platform length come into play and problems apparently will be getting worse according to the pundits so don't look for easy solutions.

 

Brian.

[Coryton]

Now it’s not that easy to persuade a 4 and 5 year old that they need to get all dressed up again, put away the sticker books and jump off the train again to run around the station. Hence we were one of the last to board the replacement train. Entering our coach, we saw a few familiar faces from 10 minutes before, but not the couple happily ensconced at our table. When politely asked to vacate, they pointed out the lack of reservation cards as proof that they could sit there. After some heated discussion, we eventually won the day, but I still can’t understand how they thought the reservation tickets would be correct on the replacement service with 5 minutes notice if they weren’t even correct on the original set.

 

So what is the meaning of these bits of paper stuck in the seat? Information only? Doesn’t a reservation in your ticket count for anything?

 

Frustrating indeed. I had a similar situation once when being told on arrival into Edinburgh that the train wasn't going onto Aberdeen as planned but we all needed to change. Cue some rapid sweeping up of all the child-entertaining clutter on the table (and frustration at the lack of notice of a change that must have been planned some time in advance because the replacement train was already there on the platform waiting for us). Fortunately there was no lack of table seats on the second train, reservations or no.

 

Anyway, the rule seems to be that in the absence of tickets on the seats, it's a free for all, but for some reason it's rarely made clear when this happens what people should do - usually there is just an apology for the lack of reservations or a statement that there are no reservations on the train, which is a bit ambiguous. I wouldn't try to get people out of my 'reserved' seat in the absence of a ticket on the seat, but I probably wouldn't fight too hard to keep one without a ticket if someone turned up with a reservation unless they were insisting on it when there were other perfectly good seats available.

 

There's no right answer - not having your reserved seat is frustrating, but then again so is sitting in a seat which then turns out to be reserved but you had no way of knowing.

 

Someone above mentioned electronic seat reservations that appear en-route and that this couldn't happen with paper tickets. Actually it can, and I've seen it, once. The guard came round after the train had left the first station and started putting the reservations out. Now - again there's no right way for this - if you don't put them out people miss out on their reservations for the whole trip, but if you do then people who got on at the start find they're sitting in what they thought was a free seat that turns out not to be. However, in my opinion going round quietly putting them behind people's backs and hoping they wouldn't notice rather than making an announcement to explain was not the right approach. The guard got some stick from someone who saw what he was doing and not unreasonably so.

 

I think the most amusing seat reservation incident I saw was two people who seemed to have reservations for the same seat. The newcomer attempted to get the incumbent to move on the grounds that the label said seat 41 (or whatever it was) matching his reservation ticket, and the incumbent's said 41A so must have been for a seat somewhere else. (It was, of course, an airline seat, hence the A).

[LBRJ]

The paper tickets are just an indication that that seat (s) is reserved.

The one you have with you is the one that matters, if of course you do have it with you

 

The situation you described with a replacement train is somewhat awkward though  - One hopes good sense will prevail....... Mind you the seats on HSTs are all laid out the same in each coach as far as I know.

Try sorting it all out on a 150 when the reservations were for a 158!!

[Coryton]

The paper tickets are just an indication that that seat (s) is reserved.

The one you have with you is the one that matters, if of course you do have it with you

 

That may be the rule (it would be nice to see it written somewhere).

 

However the impression staff have generally given when I've been on a train without the tickets on seats is that reservations are not applicable.

 

They will often say something like "There are no reservations on the train" rather than apologise for the lack of reservation tickets on the seats.

I don't think I've ever heard an announcement to say that people should give up their seats to someone who can show a reservation for them.