JLTRT

[truffy]

The tone that implies modellers who don't or can't build kits are lazy or worthless makes no account for their personal circumstances.

 

I read another post on RMweb yesterday that said something similar, but the thread was locked, so I couldn't respond.

 

Here and now probably isn't either. I think I might blog a soapbox. Possibly not today, for it has been a looooong day ending with wine.

Edited February 27, 2018 by truffy

[Craigw]

When Little Loco Co started rereleasing the old Right Price 03 and 04 kits I had five or six times the number of enquiries about producing them ready-built. Right then I knew where the market was.

 

Good kits are enjoyable to build and own, but it is a significant investment in time and skills, and if you're not able - for whatever reason - to make that investment, kits are not a cheap or convenient option. The tone that implies modellers who don't or can't build kits are lazy or worthless makes no account for their personal circumstances.

 

It's not just fluids and electricity that follow the path of least resistance, people do too.

 

If your personal circumstances dictate that you cannot or will not build kits is their any need to remind people of it day in and day out? 

 

Seriously, this post is about a manufacturer that ceased trading and it is filled with comments by the perpetually offended who never supported them anyway.

 

Have I been tempted by 7mm scale? Many times, but I made the decision long ago that the 20 or so feet of space I have available to me was better suited to 4mm scale with what I like. So, I kit and scratch build in that scale.

 

That aside, the loss of this range is a huge blow. 

 

regards,

 

Craig W

[polybear]

0 Gauge Kits don't have to be expensive:

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/0%20Gauge%20Locomotives.html

[Regularity]

No being offensive.

Wasn’t aimed at anyone.

It was a statement of facts: Railway Modelling requires a combination of time, money and skill. If you haven’t got any of those, you ain’t going to managed to get any done.

 

But I suppose that just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so can offence be easily taken.

[F-UnitMad]

If your personal circumstances dictate that you cannot or will not build kits is their any need to remind people of it day in and day out? 

 

Seriously, this post is about a manufacturer that ceased trading and it is filled with comments by the perpetually offended who never supported them anyway.

 

Must be reading a different Thread to me, then??

[The Nth Degree]

If your personal circumstances dictate that you cannot or will not build kits is their any need to remind people of it day in and day out? 

 

Seriously, this post is about a manufacturer that ceased trading and it is filled with comments by the perpetually offended who never supported them anyway.

 

Have I been tempted by 7mm scale? Many times, but I made the decision long ago that the 20 or so feet of space I have available to me was better suited to 4mm scale with what I like. So, I kit and scratch build in that scale.

 

That aside, the loss of this range is a huge blow. 

 

regards,

 

Craig W

Sorry Craig, I don't understand the relationship between my post and your response.

 

I'm not personally aware of people reminding others about time or skills. I've also owned several JLTRT kits, although I only built one of them. And yes, I agree, the loss of JLTRT is a big blow to the scale.

[jjb1970]

What? Pointing out the obvious?

No, for pointing out the obvious in a rather conceited and unpleasant way.

[Craigw]

No, for pointing out the obvious in a rather conceited and unpleasant way.

 

No, he pointed out the obvious in an obvious way. You being upset by seeing it pointed out does not make the message any less correct.

 

Craig W 

[Regularity]

For clarity, it wasn’t my intention to offend anyone, and for any offence taken, I apologise.

[Horsetan]

I don't really know, but maybe it  will be not only a 7mm hole. With David Geen retiring aren't the rights in the Mitchell 4mm kits reverting to PW too?

 

They're supposed to. So those will presumably be lost too.

[gismorail]

I purchased one of the first Class 40 kits when they were first released and got loads of advice from Mr Waterman when I got it and even phoned the factory a couple of times during the course of the construction and everyone was so helpful it helped to give me the confidence to complete the build. It did take me about six months but the whole thing went together a real treat to build ....... it now sits in a glass cabinet when not being run and is totally my pride and joy ...... thanks JLTRT just wish I'd bought a Class 24 now  

 

Anyone got one for sale please..... pretty please..... 

[Jol Wilkinson]

If your personal circumstances dictate that you cannot or will not build kits is their any need to remind people of it day in and day out? 

 

Seriously, this post is about a manufacturer that ceased trading and it is filled with comments by the perpetually offended who never supported them anyway.

 

Have I been tempted by 7mm scale? Many times, but I made the decision long ago that the 20 or so feet of space I have available to me was better suited to 4mm scale with what I like. So, I kit and scratch build in that scale.

 

That aside, the loss of this range is a huge blow. 

 

regards,

 

Craig W

Craig,

 

there is a difference between cannot and will not. Increasingly "will not" is the reality, although people choose to disguise it as "can not".

 

If you are genuinely constrained from having the time to acquire the skills, the time to make a model, a physical disability that prevents you, etc. then that is most unfortunate. But if you simply aren't interested and can't be bothered, then your modelling becomes limited by what the RTR manufacturers can/will produce. And the cost issue is something of a red herring with many people. They will spend whatever their budget allows. If someone would rather buy two or three readily available RTR locos, than one different kit built one, then that is the buyers choice.

 

 

They're supposed to. So those will presumably be lost too.

If the rights revert to PW, what is to stop him from selling them to another trader? Presumably he bought the rights from Malcolm Mitchell and opted to sell the 4mm rights for a period of time to DG. If he can get another lump of cash for doing the same thing for the MM 4mm kits, then why not. For that matter he could do the same with other products in the JLTRT range, where the tooling exists with a third party (e.g.an etch or casting company) and producing new product is actually fairly straightforward (with certain caveats).

[jim.snowdon]

Craig,

 

If the rights revert to PW, what is to stop him from selling them to another trader? Presumably he bought the rights from Malcolm Mitchell and opted to sell the 4mm rights for a period of time to DG. If he can get another lump of cash for doing the same thing for the MM 4mm kits, then why not. For that matter he could do the same with other products in the JLTRT range, where the tooling exists with a third party (e.g.an etch or casting company) and producing new product is actually fairly straightforward (with certain caveats).

It rather depends whether the rights belong to PW in a personal capacity or to Just Like The Real Thing Ltd. If the latter, and that is likely to be the case with any tooling, then control has passed to the Receiver, who can sell them off to raise such funds as are needed to pay off the creditors.

 

Jim

[Regularity]

Increasingly "will not" is the reality, although people choose to disguise it as "can not".

Easy way to find out: ask if they have ever tried, and if they have, how quickly they gave up.

 

There is always the risk of what I still think of as the “Tony Wright effect”, where the wrong type of kit is used. Tony likes to build robust models in pretty short order, and is very good at this. By his own admission about 30 years ago when reviewing the Pro-Scale V2 etched kit, something with multiple etched layers and lots of small, fine details is going to take too long for Tony, as he will always be thinking that he could have built several cast metal kits in the same time.

 

There is nothing wrong with that (although I wondered at the time why he had been asked to review it!) but it creates real problems in a limited market. There simply may not be enough “demand” for two versions of the same thing, but conversely, people have different preferences when it comes to levels of detail, complexity of construction, materials used and indeed how the kit was designed in the first place!

 

I got the impression that the JLTRT range managed to get things just right in this respect (albeit at a cost), so it is an even bigger shame that it has gone.

[Guest teacupteacup]

I've already commented that the loss of the range is a huge blow to the hobby.  I have a long term plan to build a 7mm layout, using JLTRT 20/26/27/37's.

 

I know Heljan make/made 3 of those, and whilst the 20 and 26 are good, the 37 doesn't look right to me (bodyside details/windows too far down?).  Plus I enjoy building kits. 

 

Likewise I know that there are metal kits for all of those on the market, but that is where I feel the JLTRT loss is a blow.  I just cannot build metal kits.  I've tried many many times over the years in 4mm and 7mm scales spending hundreds of pounds, but just cannot get an acceptable result.  I like my model railways to look right, doesnt need to be exactly right, but my results with metal kits just didnt look right. 

 

Its all down to my lack of skills with a soldering iron.  I've had a professional kitbuilder teach and encourage me, but I just cannot do it, so I've accepted defeat! 

 

Plastic kits I love building, I've never built a resin kit but have one in the wings (4mm) and I think I'll get on ok with it.  JLTRT were a way for me to start planning my future 7mm layout.  Hopefully another range will appear that will appear to me, if not, hopefully RTR will provide me with what I need.

 

I relation to an earlier post, I can be short of time, money and skill, but I dont find its the end of modelling for me.  I buy what I can, when I can, I develop my skills as much as I can and my time is split between work, family and other hobbies. 

[298]

Good kits are enjoyable to build and own, but it is a significant investment in time and skills, and if you're not able - for whatever reason - to make that investment, kits are not a cheap or convenient option. The tone that implies modellers who don't or can't build kits are lazy or worthless makes no account for their personal circumstances.

It's not just fluids and electricity that follow the path of least resistance, people do too.

The swingometer would suggest that JLTRT sales were decreasing due to established O scale modellers turning to imported RTR in addition to newcomers coming straight in at that level. I too have stood in front of Antics window and gazed in amazement at a bizarrely liveried Dapol O gauge loco, PO wagons and Austin 7 van and wondered about building a Micro layout, before closing that thought and adding it to the top ten of projects I'll never build.

 

Unfortunately I think the O gauge community has rather shot itself in the foot with a reliance on RTR, as at a show recently I witnessed what must have also been an Antics window epiphany, but unfortunately born with badly lit flat earth baseboards sat on wonky trestles. Any such layout in a smaller scale would have not been allowed out, but this was O so it must have been good....

[ROSSPOP]

Unfortunately I think the O gauge community has rather shot itself in the foot with a reliance on RTR, as at a show recently I witnessed what must have also been an Antics window epiphany, but unfortunately born with badly lit flat earth baseboards sat on wonky trestles. Any such layout in a smaller scale would have not been allowed out, but this was O so it must have been good....

 

Unfortunately having moved over from 4mm  to 7mm modelling for the past decade , that is all too common and will be demonstrated this weekend at GOG Spring show where there will be  masses of quality O Guage trade stands ( sadly without JLTRT, I shall miss them) but only  4 layouts, three of which are mediocre........... in my opinion,of course.....

Edited February 28, 2018 by ROSSPOP

[The Nth Degree]

The swingometer would suggest that JLTRT sales were decreasing due to established O scale modellers turning to imported RTR in addition to newcomers coming straight in at that level. I too have stood in front of Antics window and gazed in amazement at a bizarrely liveried Dapol O gauge loco, PO wagons and Austin 7 van and wondered about building a Micro layout, before closing that thought and adding it to the top ten of projects I'll never build.

 

Unfortunately I think the O gauge community has rather shot itself in the foot with a reliance on RTR, as at a show recently I witnessed what must have also been an Antics window epiphany, but unfortunately born with badly lit flat earth baseboards sat on wonky trestles. Any such layout in a smaller scale would have not been allowed out, but this was O so it must have been good....

I would firmly, but respectfully disagree with that assumption.

 

I don't doubt that RTR products have had an impact on kit sales, but I would doubt that would be enough to close down a business with a quality product like JLTRT. Model railway kits are, and always will be, an extremely limited-volume product in a very small market. 100 units sold of any kit is optimistic and generally regarded as pretty good going. One hundred! RTR products can sell 10 times that amount in O gauge, and more for some products.

 

We won't know what the exact circumstances were for JLTRTs closure, but I would hazard a guess that acquiring (and paying for) very expensive plant and machinery to produce products of very low volume would go a long way to explain the circumstances. That is quite a continual heavy overhead that had to be met every month.

 

I would guess, and I stress it is a guess, that RTR products accounted for a drop of 5-10% or so of kit sales. You have to take into account that most RTR sales would have been made regardless of whether a kit was available. Builders of kits, however you view it personally, are very few in number and it is nobody's fault.

[Horsetan]

....If the rights revert to PW, what is to stop him from selling them to another trader? Presumably he bought the rights from Malcolm Mitchell and opted to sell the 4mm rights for a period of time to DG. If he can get another lump of cash for doing the same thing for the MM 4mm kits, then why not. .....

We'll see. Would be nice if Brassmasters were in the running for something like that, but their hands are very full....

[Clearwater]

If the rights revert to PW, what is to stop him from selling them to another trader? Presumably he bought the rights from Malcolm Mitchell and opted to sell the 4mm rights for a period of time to DG. If he can get another lump of cash for doing the same thing for the MM 4mm kits, then why not. For that matter he could do the same with other products in the JLTRT range, where the tooling exists with a third party (e.g.an etch or casting company) and producing new product is actually fairly straightforward (with certain caveats).

Perhaps time for London Road to expand its range into the GWR? There's a definite gap in the kit market for pre grouping GWR locos, particularly some of the more workaday types.

[Bob Reid]

Everyone is making an awful lot of assumptions when the only facts we know relate to the company that produced the models. Not necessarily the same as the owner of the rights.

​[Edit] to add - don't forget this part from the "orses mouth" In the coming months,I expect to announce new plans, so watch this space. I believe there is a small niche for a high quality designer and manufacture,and that will likely be my focus. The best models for discerning modellers and collectors.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Bob Reid

[Dava]

Unfortunately having moved over from 4mm  to 7mm modelling for the past decade , that is all too common and will be demonstrated this weekend at GOG Spring show where there will be  masses of quality O Guage trade stands ( sadly without JLTRT, I shall miss them) but only  4 layouts, three of which are mediocre........... in my opinion,of course.....

You have to be pretty motivated to show a layout at the GOG Kettering or Doncaster shows, with a very early start and mainly being the sideshow to blokes doing their shopping. Especially with the weather this weekend. If your layout is better, please offer it for a future show.

 

Dava

[Captain Cuttle]

I would firmly, but respectfully disagree with that assumption.

 

I don't doubt that RTR products have had an impact on kit sales, but I would doubt that would be enough to close down a business with a quality product like JLTRT. Model railway kits are, and always will be, an extremely limited-volume product in a very small market. 100 units sold of any kit is optimistic and generally regarded as pretty good going. One hundred! RTR products can sell 10 times that amount in O gauge, and more for some products.

 

We won't know what the exact circumstances were for JLTRTs closure, but I would hazard a guess that acquiring (and paying for) very expensive plant and machinery to produce products of very low volume would go a long way to explain the circumstances. That is quite a continual heavy overhead that had to be met every month.

 

I would guess, and I stress it is a guess, that RTR products accounted for a drop of 5-10% or so of kit sales. You have to take into account that most RTR sales would have been made regardless of whether a kit was available. Builders of kits, however you view it personally, are very few in number and it is nobody's fault.

Why would they continue to bring out new kits year after year when the evidence shows they have been continually losing money?

 

regards

 

Alan

[Marshall5]

Why would they continue to bring out new kits year after year when the evidence shows they have been continually losing money?

 

regards

 

Alan

Maybe because PW wanted them for Leamington?

Ray.

[Regularity]

It is quite possible that PW’s costs/losses would have been greater if he hadn’t made the range available...

 

But maybe the likely sales had peaked: there was a real thirst for the range when it was introduced, but that will have been sated a while ago, regardless of RTR availability, and supporting such a large range was producing ever decreasing returns.