JLTRT

[jjb1970]

I think a well built and painted JLRT kit will be better than an equivalent Heljan or Dapol equivalent, the problem is that few have the skills to match the overall build and finish of RTR. So for most modellers it is likely that a kit with the potential to be better will cost more, require a lot of effort and deliver a final model which is worse. An alternative would be to commission a pro-builder to make the kit and paint it, but if you get a genuinely good pro-builder then that is going to take the price way, way beyond something like a Heljan model.

 

These kits were not cheap, the reason for the cost isn't really the point as to a consumer a price of several hundred pounds for a kit is serious money. People can but a plastic kit of an aircraft or military vehicle and if it doesn't end that well they've lost a few quid but it's low enough to take a punt and if it ends up a disaster they haven't lost much. Several hundred quid for a locomotive kit is another thing entirely. And RTR models are very good, reading some opinions people might be forgiven for thinking RTR models were terrible but most of them are very good and if they're cheaper and a safer buy it is not really surprising that they are preferred by many (most).

[BlackRat]

And when my JLTRT Class 37 with twin ABC motor/gearbox bogies is complete with extra detailing packs and all manner of spoiling embellishments and sits in its custom made carry box ready for exhibiting, I shall not once rue the fact I could have had three RTR products in lieu. Instead I shall think of all the cottage businesses I've supported and one man bands I've chatted to/ made friends with and all the new skills I've learnt along the way. 

 

And... move away from the soapbox.

Good for you!

[djparkins]

In fact I think shortage of time & money may figure more in the way O Scale is shifting towards R-T-R, than lack of skills. After all, if most O Scalers started in the smaller scales, so aren't complete novices, & JLTRT kits are supposedly far simpler to build than etched brass kits; why weren't they selling like proverbial hot cakes? Price has to be a big factor.

I'm not saying "they should have been cheaper" - if that was the price they had to be, then so be it, but the subsequent market at that price clearly wasn't large enough to sustain the Company.

 

F Unit -

 

This is all true - but as I alluded to in my previous post - there just aren't enough 7mm modellers out there, period. OK you may sell more units at a lower price - but it still wouldn't be enough and you would lose even more money into the bargain!

 

You might not want to consider this - and it is possible that visions of soldering irons, rivetting tools and folding bars may give many of you nightmares and cold sweats - but you may find out that in the end it is only those more traditional kits that are sustainable, given their relatively low tooling costs in relation to the thin covering of 7mm modellers on the hillside.

 

Is it possibly time for a reality check?!

 

Regards,

 

DJP/MMP

[F-UnitMad]

F Unit -

 

This is all true - but as I alluded to in my previous post - there just aren't enough 7mm modellers out there, period. OK you may sell more units at a lower price - but it still wouldn't be enough and you would lose even more money into the bargain!

 

I think we're in agreement, aren't we? As I said, I wasn't saying JLTRT kits should have been cheaper, just that at the price they were, the market was too small.

You might not want to consider this - and it is possible that visions of soldering irons, rivetting tools and folding bars may give many of you nightmares and cold sweats - but you may find out that in the end it is only those more traditional kits that are sustainable, given their relatively low tooling costs in relation to the thin covering of 7mm modellers on the hillside.

 

I did consider etched kits. I even built two. Admittedly the kits I chose (because they were Classes I wanted) might not have been the best kits out there, but I did pick up the associated skills, & also found that being short of spare time, having to devote all of that time to those kits, over the course of many months, & to the exclusion of any other modelling at all, wasn't that satisfying to me personally.

That's why I haven't done any more, & probably why one of those kits still isn't fully finished several years later, & the other was sold, because despite my best efforts, I wasn't happy with the end result, which really managed to look almost, but not quite, totally unlike the real thing at all.

[2ManySpams]

I think a well built and painted JLRT kit will be better than an equivalent Heljan or Dapol equivalent, the problem is that few have the skills to match the overall build and finish of RTR. So for most modellers it is likely that a kit with the potential to be better will cost more, require a lot of effort and deliver a final model which is worse. An alternative would be to commission a pro-builder to make the kit and paint it, but if you get a genuinely good pro-builder then that is going to take the price way, way beyond something like a Heljan model.

 

These kits were not cheap, the reason for the cost isn't really the point as to a consumer a price of several hundred pounds for a kit is serious money. People can but a plastic kit of an aircraft or military vehicle and if it doesn't end that well they've lost a few quid but it's low enough to take a punt and if it ends up a disaster they haven't lost much. Several hundred quid for a locomotive kit is another thing entirely. And RTR models are very good, reading some opinions people might be forgiven for thinking RTR models were terrible but most of them are very good and if they're cheaper and a safer buy it is not really surprising that they are preferred by many (most).

Unfortunately that's probably quite an accurate summary.

[N15class]

I think the I want now attitude today does not help the gaining of kit scratch building skills. Long gone unfortunately when most boys started throwing plastic airfix etc kits together at a rather tender age. I know my first was a five. Probably more finger prints than details at the end. Then the progression through to boats planes cars or trains. Or a mixture of any. My first proper models were aircraft. Now you go buy a box with shaped foam in it that assembles in minutes and it's called modelling. As for cost I as a single parent bringing up 4 kids and working. I found loco kits or scratch building a very cheap way to model. If a £350 took a year to build it made a cheap hobby £1 a day. Yes if you want everything tomorrow then it does become very expensive.

Rant over

 

Back to JLTRT, I am sure it's not the end of PW's live with kits. The ex Mitchell kits will be around again they are good can't be much development cost left to recover if anything. Unless the rights etc were over paid.

[Regularity]

I did consider etched kits. I even built two. Admittedly the kits I chose (because they were Classes I wanted) might not have been the best kits out there, but I did pick up the associated skills, & also found that being short of spare time, having to devote all of that time to those kits, over the course of many months, & to the exclusion of any other modelling at all, wasn't that satisfying to me personally.

That's why I haven't done any more, & probably why one of those kits still isn't fully finished several years later, & the other was sold, because despite my best efforts, I wasn't happy with the end result, which really managed to look almost, but not quite, totally unlike the real thing at all.

To say that you weren’t happy with the kit you did finish reflects some very high standards, Jordan. I have yet to see another instance of that kit finished well enough to compare with yours, indeed most commentators felt the kit was all but unbuildable, and that you had achieved the impossible, for the model actually looked like a representation of the prototype. I would rephrase your last sentence: managed to look almost, but not quite, totally like the real thing.

 

But you have finally explained what it was that you didn’t like: being short of spare time, having to devote all of that time to those kits, over the course of many months, & to the exclusion of any other modelling at all, wasn't that satisfying.

Some might say, “Why not put it aside for a week or two and do something else?” But I think I might guess the reason: you would have never picked it up again, so glad to going on and it was now being completed not because of the pleasure of it, but because it had become a nagging imperative. I can understand completely how that would take the joy from the hobby, and only salute you for seeing it through, especially to the high standard you achieved at the end. I would have given up long before then!

 

Interesting, too, that you describe yourself as both time and money poor: I think this is an increasing problem as for the past 10 years we have seen economic “stagflation” (prices go up, wages stay the same, so we are poorer in real terms) and the real pain (NHS and other services) has only justed started.

 

Maybe if we weren’t going directly from civilisation to barbarism without the usual periods of hedonistic excess and decline in between, then the future for manufacturers such as JLTRT wouldn’t be quite so bleak?

[d600]

I like jltrt kits but just can’t afford them and to be honest if I was going to spend £400 on a loco I’d rather buy a rtr one lights,dcc ready etc it’s only companies like Dapol,ixon etc making smaller cheaper rtr o gauge locos that made me change to o gauge it is a shame tho has I did use jltrt for parts to upgrade brass kits‍♂.

[Ian G]

I put the blame on cheap RTR locos with crap plastic gear drive, I picked up a Cl 22 last year as I could not wait for Steve Beattie to recondition his Cl 22 kit, yes they are expensive, but looking around all the mods on the Heljan locos it works out about the same price in the end.

 

Ian G

[purplepiepete]

I think a well built and painted JLRT kit will be better than an equivalent Heljan or Dapol equivalent, the problem is that few have the skills to match the overall build and finish of RTR. So for most modellers it is likely that a kit with the potential to be better will cost more, require a lot of effort and deliver a final model which is worse. An alternative would be to commission a pro-builder to make the kit and paint it, but if you get a genuinely good pro-builder then that is going to take the price way, way beyond something like a Heljan model.

 

These kits were not cheap, the reason for the cost isn't really the point as to a consumer a price of several hundred pounds for a kit is serious money. People can but a plastic kit of an aircraft or military vehicle and if it doesn't end that well they've lost a few quid but it's low enough to take a punt and if it ends up a disaster they haven't lost much. Several hundred quid for a locomotive kit is another thing entirely. And RTR models are very good, reading some opinions people might be forgiven for thinking RTR models were terrible but most of them are very good and if they're cheaper and a safer buy it is not really surprising that they are preferred by many (most).

 

Well said and I would add that there some very good and also very poor quality kits out there. I have bought a number of both over the years, my favourite being those of mixed media i.e resin/etched etc - the former Underhill kits being an excellent example of these from many years ago. There is also nothing worse than being confronted with a mass of etched parts and totally inadequate instructions with a few poor quality sketches leaving the builder to guess what goes where. I can quote some examples but seasoned kit builders will know which these are.

 

The point is that a good quality kit not only requires decent well made parts it also requires comprehensive assembly details  for the novice who has spent a wage packet on a kit. To solder/bend/form and construct a body and straight chassis is no mean feat and really requires jigs and bending bars as well as good quality soldering equipment.

 

Personally I think the future is in 3D printing although it's in it's infancy and will be a while before it replaces high quality lost wax castings. As for cheap etched brass kits it's really a case of you get what you pay for and if that floats your boat then so be it.

[Poggy1165]

I have to say that the JLTRT diesel kits looked very tempting, even to me as a dyed in the wool steam bod. Had I been rich enough to regard their price as petty cash, I should certainly have bought and built one, just for the crack. 

 

Mr Waterman had an exceedingly attractive L&Y loco at Doncaster in resin/plastic/whatever, that looked good and would doubtless have been a cinch to build. I would really have been tempted to buy one of those; but if they can't be produced at a price that people like me can afford, and at the same time gives a fair return to the producer, it's just a dead end, isn't it?

[Regularity]

A JLTRT kit for a loco was what, £500? Add in any extra bits such as wheels, motors, and you are still going to come in at under £700?

 

That’s less that £2 a day saved up over a year, which is less than many people’s caffeine habit costs them.

 

How is that expensive? It just means that whilst dreaming about building a layout, if you start saving £15 a week, you build up some savings, buy something (wood, track, etc) and carry on saving whilst putting the purchases to good use. Plus, you can always request money rather than presents at Christmas and Birthdays.

 

Given the quality results possible, and the reasonableness of their price when saved up for, these were never expensive kits. They just seemed that way to people who confuse buying with modelling.

 

if they can't be produced at a price that people like me can afford, and at the same time gives a fair return to the producer, it's just a dead end, isn't it?

Now that is a balanced view, which suggests that you have accepted that you will go without, buy a cheaper kit (if one is available) or build from scratch. Edited February 27, 2018 by Regularity

[Captain Cuttle]

A JLTRT kit for a loco was what, £500? Add in any extra bits such as wheels, motors, and you are still going to come in at under £700?

 

That’s less that £2 a day saved up over a year, which is less than many people’s caffeine habit costs them.

 

How is that expensive? It just means that whilst dreaming about building a layout, if you start saving £15 a week, you build up some savings, buy something (wood, track, etc) and carry on saving whilst putting the purchases to good use. Plus, you can always request money rather than presents at Christmas and Birthdays.

 

Given the quality results possible, and the reasonableness of their price when saved up for, these were never expensive kits. They just seemed that way to people who confuse buying with modelling.

 

Now that is a balanced view, which suggests that you have accepted that you will go without, buy a cheaper kit (if one is available) or build from scratch.

And so have a lot of other modellers which is a shame as they are very good kits but if you have to get them built and you dont have the skills or the time or the cash then it works out expensive. So thats why on Ebay most weeks you will see a variety of older part built mainly diesel locos sold at very reasonable prices  to notice there is a market there.

[Regularity]

...and you dont have the skills or the time or the cash then...

...then I think you are in the wrong scale, if not the wrong hobby!

 

Skill requires time, but time can be replaced with money (which is used to buy someone else’s time, effectively).

If you lack all three, then you need to sort your life out, big time, ‘cos you are comprehensively effed.

 

You can have beer tastes even with champagne money, but the converse is incompossible.*

 

* A lovely word coined by Ambrose Bierce.**

** Google him.

[jjb1970]

...then I think you are in the wrong scale, if not the wrong hobby!

 

Skill requires time, but time can be replaced with money (which is used to buy someone else’s time, effectively).

If you lack all three, then you need to sort your life out, big time, ‘cos you are comprehensively effed.

 

You can have beer tastes even with champagne money, but the converse is incompossible.*

 

* A lovely word coined by Ambrose Bierce.**

** Google him.

Is there really any need for that?

[ROSSPOP]

So... when I was a poorly poorly paid student in the 1970`s....

 

I saved up for one Kay`s complete GWR loco kit and one length of 00 track ( already had an old H&M Clipper controller)

 

It took months to glue it/screw it together and eventually got it to run reasonably well with perseverance (and not the etched kit variety)

 

Then I was inspired by a single advert and photo of an etched Mallard Models GWR Duke kit....saved a bit more for an Antex soldering iron, Bakers Fluid, and some cheap solder from Safeways (remember them?)

 

Determined to build it ....I taught myself to solder on an old dinner tray at the kitchen table...... took ages.

 

Are inspiration and determination out of date these days ????

[purplepiepete]

A JLTRT kit for a loco was what, £500? Add in any extra bits such as wheels, motors, and you are still going to come in at under £700?

 

That’s less that £2 a day saved up over a year, which is less than many people’s caffeine habit costs them.

 

How is that expensive? It just means that whilst dreaming about building a layout, if you start saving £15 a week, you build up some savings, buy something (wood, track, etc) and carry on saving whilst putting the purchases to good use. Plus, you can always request money rather than presents at Christmas and Birthdays.

 

Given the quality results possible, and the reasonableness of their price when saved up for, these were never expensive kits. They just seemed that way to people who confuse buying with modelling.

 

Now that is a balanced view, which suggests that you have accepted that you will go without, buy a cheaper kit (if one is available) or build from scratch.

 

Good arguments and fair points but few people put cash in a savings tin these days and I suggest that, if so inclined, most people would pay for big ticket purchases by credit card anyway thus making any 'reasonable purchase' accessible.  Clearly in the case of JLTRT they weren't inclined.

Edited February 27, 2018 by purplepiepete

[N15class]

So... when I was a poorly poorly paid student in the 1970`s....

 

I saved up for one Kay`s complete GWR loco kit and one length of 00 track ( already had an old H&M Clipper controller)

 

It took months to glue it/screw it together and eventually got it to run reasonably well with perseverance (and not the etched kit variety)

 

Then I was inspired by a single advert and photo of an etched Mallard Models GWR Duke kit....saved a bit more for an Antex soldering iron, Bakers Fluid, and some cheap solder from Safeways (remember them?)

 

Determined to build it ....I taught myself to solder on an old dinner tray at the kitchen table...... took ages.

 

Are inspiration and determination out of date these days ????

 

That's the way I learnt. But in our instant world no one wants to put the time in to learn the skills, if not right first time they can't do it, not look at why it was wrong, and have another go.

[Hal Nail]

So... when I was a poorly poorly paid student in the 1970`s....

 

 

Hang on a minute.... students got paid????!!!!

[Bucoops]

Hang on a minute.... students got paid????!!!!

 

Medical experiments?

[Regularity]

Is there really any need for that?

What? Pointing out the obvious?

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

If anyone salvages the diesel parts tooling there is ready market of RTR O gauge owners crying out for detail parts & bodies....probably a much bigger market than the original kits!

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

What? Pointing out the obvious?

No being offensive.

[ROSSPOP]

Hang on a minute.... students got paid????!!!!

 

 

Oh Yes......

 

Provided you gained your O levels..... if you were poor... you got a Grant from your local council

Those were the days.........

 

....er    so the tax payer paid for my hobby........... oops!

Edited February 27, 2018 by ROSSPOP

[The Nth Degree]

When Little Loco Co started rereleasing the old Right Price 03 and 04 kits I had five or six times the number of enquiries about producing them ready-built. Right then I knew where the market was.

 

Good kits are enjoyable to build and own, but it is a significant investment in time and skills, and if you're not able - for whatever reason - to make that investment, kits are not a cheap or convenient option. The tone that implies modellers who don't or can't build kits are lazy or worthless makes no account for their personal circumstances.

 

It's not just fluids and electricity that follow the path of least resistance, people do too.