JLTRT

[delticfan]

Looks like my dream of a decent Deltic model is even further into the future now! Boo hoo! and as for an EM1 dream on....

[N15class]

 

 

Why spend upwards of 600 quid on a locomotive kit (once you add wheels motor finish etc) when you can get RTR for half that ?

 

Many enjoy building things. There is great pleasure in the knowledge that you have built something. Anyway not one loco or coach I want is RTR so the price is irrelevant.

 

Losing any part of our modelling world is always sad news whether relevant to you or not.

Edited February 25, 2018 by N15class

[polybear]

It would've been useful (if practical) if JLTRT could have put out a statement informing everyone that they were shutting down in x months and inviting "last orders".  Alan Gibson did something similar (whilst still actively looking for a buyer - which fortunately was successful) and sales went thru' the roof.

[Kubes]

Sometimes it's not about the destination it's about the journey and that's what you can get with a scratch build or a kit but which you rarely if ever find with rtr. Not dissing rtr, I love my Dapol Terriers but when you build something yourself you can reach a mental place which is quite special.

Kubes

[Hal Nail]

Some very valid points in support of kits but the point he was actually making, whether we like it or not, is clearly there aren't enough of us buying them!

[Regularity]

There is an old saw: the best way to make a small fortune out of model railways, is to start with a big fortune.

[purplepiepete]

'Why spend upwards of 600 quid on a locomotive kit (once you add wheels motor finish etc) when you can get RTR for half that?'

 

Because I enjoy modelling?

 

Agree 100%, but a few of us aren't going to sustain the kit industry who are no doubt faced with spiralling costs and shrinking sales. I hope that the specialists survive as cottage industries

(as many start out) however can anyone provide cheap/reasonable quality/easy build/entry level kits (as the likes of Airfix once did) these days ? 

Edited February 26, 2018 by purplepiepete

[MarcD]

We are working on one at the moment its a GER/LNER/BR 0-4-0 Tram loco. We were going to do it as RTR only but there hasn't been the demand so it might just be a kit. 3D printed super structure and a bolt together chassis in nickel silver. It wont be cheep mind as the time it has taken to develop and the cost of production means that it will be in the £300 bracket. But it will be glue and screw. Only soldering would be the contacts to the motor.

 

Marc  

[purplepiepete]

BTW if anyone wants a Timber Tracks kit before they also stop trading this year check this out :

 

http://www.timbertracks.co.uk

[Redkiterail]

It would've been useful (if practical) if JLTRT could have put out a statement informing everyone that they were shutting down in x months and inviting "last orders".  Alan Gibson did something similar (whilst still actively looking for a buyer - which fortunately was successful) and sales went thru' the roof.

I believe the kits are built to order so there maybe no actual stock to sale for last order also this is going through a court process not a sale to other party which may change what can and cant be done

[Andy Siddall]

This is sad news indeed as I am sure that many were looking to purchase and build JLTRT kits as and when funds became available which is the problem with RTR.

 

I personally see this as a wider debate than just JLTRT going by the wayside in that RTR is built using a batch system whereby stock is brought to the market in limited numbers and once it has gone then that is it. should one wish to purchase a previously produced model at a later date then they have to look at  the second hand market or hope that a manufacturer will make another batch, therefore if you want a loco or item of stock the best option to secure it is to buy it when it is released on pre-order. An other issue is if say you want a class 37/5 for your steel train then the only option is to purchase a brand new 37 model and modify it to that sub class.

 

The kit manufacturer on the other hand is more likely to produce a kit over a number of years and while selling fewer numbers is more likely to be a help to people who are budgeting to buy stock or cannot afford to purchase an item when it comes to market for a limited amount of time. While some locos like the Heljan 60 appear to have not sold too well and there are still some available new stock, they will eventually sell and anyone wanting a 60 after that point will either be out of luck as with low sales Heljan are unlikely to produce another batch, the alternative,  try to find one on the second hand market.

 

I often read here that 'kits cost too much' or 'I do not have the skills / cannot build kits'. Skills are something that accrue during a lifetime and everyone who does build has to start with a first kit, mine is a terrible mess but I still keep it (diagonal chimney and all) to remind me of how I started all those years ago, I couldn't build kits when I started either but I can look back at what I have built and see where my skills have improved and 30 years later I am still improving...I hope!

As for finances then we are all in different boats and it is a case of each to their own but the kit built loco is truly yours and even though you may pay a little more you will have a unique loco and may have gained just a little more skill to help build the next one.

 

Apologies that this has turned into a long winded, soap box inspired rant but I have seen this situation coming for a little while but am shocked as I did not expect it to come so soon. Hopefully something shall rise out of the ashes of Just Like The Real Thing, we shall have to watch this space and see.

 

Cheers

 

 

Andy

Edited February 26, 2018 by Andy Siddall

[Captain Kernow]

To those that procrastinated etc, tough.

A cautionary tale for all who procrastinate, no matter what it is that you are procrastinating about. I would include myself in that grouping.

[purplepiepete]

A cautionary tale for all who procrastinate, no matter what it is that you are procrastinating about. I would include myself in that grouping.

 

“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.”

― Charles Dickens, David Copperfield

[admiles]

A cautionary tale for all who procrastinate, no matter what it is that you are procrastinating about. I would include myself in that grouping.

 

Sometimes it is financially enforced procrastination......not voluntary.

[purplepiepete]

Sometimes it is financially enforced procrastination......not voluntary.

 

very true and ebay is a wonderful thing for those of us in this situation ! Sadly this doesn't help the struggling kit suppliers........

[30801]

very true and ebay is a wonderful thing for those of us in this situation ! 

 

I don't think it is....

Unstarted JLTRT kits will probably start selling for above RRP soon if they aren't already.

[djparkins]

This is sad news indeed as I am sure that many were looking to purchase and build JLTRT kits as and when funds became available which is the problem with RTR.

 

I personally see this as a wider debate than just JLTRT going by the wayside in that RTR is built using a batch system whereby stock is brought to the market in limited numbers and once it has gone then that is it. should one wish to purchase a previously produced model at a later date then they have to look at  the second hand market or hope that a manufacturer will make another batch, therefore if you want a loco or item of stock the best option to secure it is to buy it when it is released on pre-order. An other issue is if say you want a class 37/5 for your steel train then the only option is to purchase a brand new 37 model and modify it to that sub class.

 

The kit manufacturer on the other hand is more likely to produce a kit over a number of years and while selling fewer numbers is more likely to be a help to people who are budgeting to buy stock or cannot afford to purchase an item when it comes to market for a limited amount of time. While some locos like the Heljan 60 appear to have not sold too well and there are still some available new stock, they will eventually sell and anyone wanting a 60 after that point will either be out of luck as with low sales Heljan are unlikely to produce another batch, the alternative,  try to find one on the second hand market.

 

I often read here that 'kits cost too much' or 'I do not have the skills / cannot build kits'. Skills are something that accrue during a lifetime and everyone who does build has to start with a first kit, mine is a terrible mess but I still keep it (diagonal chimney and all) to remind me of how I started all those years ago, I couldn't build kits when I started either but I can look back at what I have built and see where my skills have improved and 30 years later I am still improving...I hope!

As for finances then we are all in different boats and it is a case of each to their own but the kit built loco is truly yours and even though you may pay a little more you will have a unique loco and may have gained just a little more skill to help build the next one.

 

Apologies that this has turned into a long winded, soap box inspired rant but I have seen this situation coming for a little while but am shocked as I did not expect it to come so soon. Hopefully something shall rise out of the ashes of Just Like The Real Thing, we shall have to watch this space and see.

 

Cheers

 

 

Andy

 

Andy -

 

Thank you for a very thoughtful contribution to this thread. If I may, I'd like to take a little time to try and pull together some of the points raised in previous posts from the point of view of both a modeller, and of a 7mm kit manufacturer.

 

Firstly, to develop Andy's point about gaining skills over the years, as your modelling progresses. I fully agree. I took the decision to model in 7mm back in 1974/5 after buying a 3H wagon kit. This I made in an evening and fitted Jackson wheels to it. I was hooked. Then the first Slaters MR wagons came out. No more 3H after that! Then I started to build Westdale coaches and get into etched kits, as the first Metalmodels, Mallard Models and Colin Waite kits appeared, and that was it. Once I had built etched kits I no longer wanted to build anything else. There were many 'pain-barriers' to go through but these were as nothing to the satisfaction gained. My models were my own, and everyone else's were different and that was what mattered - I had stamped my individuality upon them.

 

That is one hobby and I'd call that modelling. Buying and running RTR is another hobby in some ways - although some posts on here allude to a happy marriage of the two. Whether just buying and running RTR is modelling is something I'll let others decide, but that it does not allow for, nor encourage, any personal development and growth as a modeller is surely undeniable.

 

As my own skills improved I got commisions and built up a business making models for others, but that was like hard work to me! - and so I got into kit production in 1979, and have made a living at it ever since, but expanding into other areas such as military kits [which interested me every bit as much as railways] was an essential part of surviving as purely a manufacturer.

 

So - moving onto that side of things, I would like to make the following observations based on the thirty nine years that have since elapsed. Now it may be that the ethos behind JLTRT was that if you could release kits that were easier to build than etched kits then you would dramatically increase your market. I see that - and no doubt it did, but obviously not by enough. I would think it might have added an extra 40% to the number of kits you might sell - but even if it was 100%, it would not have been enough, given the development costs that have been cited for some of these kits elsewhere. And this is the critical issue.

 

The way I have always approached this problem is as follows. I decide on the subject and then assess the total number of sales I think I'll acheive over a five year period [anything more is a bonus] - and I always take a pessimistic rather than an optimistic view on this. So if I decide that I'll sell 100 kits tops, then the development costs have to be in proportion to the sales and the cost of boxing each kit and of all the other costs [including allowing for VAT]. The setting of a price for the kit will also determine the likelihood of reaching that projected sales figure, and once this balancing act has been calculated, you have your budget. This budget will tell you how much you can spend on deveopment costs for a kit and how much the components of the kit must cost [and NOT exceed] because there has to be a good proportion of meat left on the bone for the manufacturer at the end of it all. That mark-up is sacrosanct if you have a wife, family and hungry border collies. I have NEVER spent more that £1500.00 on developing any kit, and that is how I've survived. To keep within a figure like this you must do all the work yourself [or have decent slaves!]. And if all this means that you can only produce metal kits - then so be it.

 

We all have to operate in a free market economy [other than the North Korean arm of my company!]. On this basis the likes of Slaters, myself, DJH and PRMRP could hardly complain when JLTRT came into the market and had the inevitable knock-on effect upon our sales. It didn't impact on me so much, as only 10-15% of my income was from railway kits anyway, and even those sales held up pretty well. By the same token however, JLTRT cannot complain when, in turn, they see their products duplicated by Heljan and Dapol etc. What goes around comes around. Competitive geese for the competitive gander!

 

It has been mentioned that if JLTRT had sold more kits they might have survived. Not necessarily. If you are losing money with each kit you sell then it is better to sell none.

 

It has been mentioned in a previous posting that what O Gauge needs are entry-level Airfix-like kits [and presumably at much lower prices than JLTRT!]. Well I'd say great, but you will need to find 10-20,000 'O-gaugers' all wanting the same loco in order to make it pay - dream on! I wish anyone good luck in finding those 10-20,000 7mm modellers. You'd have more chance of flying to the moon on a helium-filled party balloon.

 

David Parkins

Modern Motive Power

www.djparkins.com

Edited March 8, 2018 by djparkins

[purplepiepete]

I don't think it is....

Unstarted JLTRT kits will probably start selling for above RRP soon if they aren't already.

 

I was thinking more in general terms however you are probably correct re JLTRT as it's down to supply and demand. In my experience these kits have never been commonplace on the secondhand market

(and believe me I have looked) so I guess they will still achieve a good price. Given that they were made to order it seems very unlikely that someone will have a stock of these 'to clear'. In the event that these

resurface in the future (after all the steam loco kits were originally Mitchell/Chowbent/Underhill etc) I guess this could change ?

[Hal Nail]

 

It has been mentioned that if JLTRT had sold more kits they might have survived. Not necessarily. If you are losing money with each kit you sell then it is better to sell none.

 

David Parkins

Modern Motive Power

www.djparkins.com

 

Thanks David - very interesting to hear from a manufacturer's angle.

 

Good point above: I think we all rather assumed that each kit sold did at least make some positive contribution - however you may well be right!

Having said that it isn't just their diesel kits of course - we've also (at least currently) lost some other ranges as well and I still hope that the likes of the ex Malcolm Mitchell etched kits can be salvaged in time.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Hal Nail

[37114]

Sad news, I had planned to buy a split box class 37 from JLTRT in the next couple of years. The Heljan model is nowhere near as good as the JLTRT model and costs not much less unfortunately..

[Captain Cuttle]

Sad news, I had planned to buy a split box class 37 from JLTRT in the next couple of years. The Heljan model is nowhere near as good as the JLTRT model and costs not much less unfortunately..

Yes i agree but if someone else is building it for you then it costs a lot more. I have discussed this with other active  modellers but they reckon the kits are just too dear to start with and this is not just locos. The Mk 2a-c coaches are not cheap and also have the wrong seats, the C variant has the wrong roof vents and in the BSO and BFK  the guards compartment is taken from a Mk 1.

People like Heljan as they can be improved with after market replacement parts.

 

Alan

[djparkins]

Good point above: I think we all rather assumed that each kit sold did at least make some positive contribution - however you may well be right!

 

 

Just to clarify - what I mean't was that possibly the price of each kit may not have been profitable when you also factor in the development costs, spread over the total likely to be sold of that particular subject. I don't doubt that the purchase price more than covered the cost of the materials in the box, but as I outlined above, the trick to survival is to get your development/tooling costs back as well - and to make a profit on top. That is the only way you can sustain things long-term.

 

Regards

 

DJP/MMP

[MarcD]

This is not a winge as it is a question that has been asked by some of the people who come to the stand at shows. I would say ""customers but they have a tendency not to buy anything and therefore don't technically qualify as "Customers". 

 

The price the customer is charged for a kit is directly related to the cost manufacture.  

 

The costs brake down of the price of a £50 kit for a production run of 30 wagons

 

• Art work for etched parts £2.50
• Moulds for cast parts £2.50
• cost of patterns £3
• Brass parts £5
• Resin parts £5
• 3D prinited parts £5
• buffers £5
• couplings £2.50
• box £1
• wire £0.50
•  
• Total cost £32

 

Then you have to take out

• Insurance £400 per year,
• cost of shows £400 per year,
• cost accommodation/food at shows £1000,
• fuel to get to shows £1000
• Heating a workshop £200 

We might get £5 per kit if we are lucky so that is £150 per 30

it takes about 50 hours to design and manufacture 30 kits  so my hourly rate is about £3 per hour. 

 

Speaking for myself if I work one day a week for ASDA stacking shelves on the minimum wage £7.50 I would take home more than I would working 2.5 days a week manufacturing kits. I manufacture partly as I enjoy building kits that I can't buy, but I'm always asking myself why I do it.

 

So if people want cheaper kits then good luck with the maths and getting someone to manufacture them for you. 

 

Marc

[Arun Sharma]

Sad news, I had planned to buy a split box class 37 from JLTRT in the next couple of years. The Heljan model is nowhere near as good as the JLTRT model and costs not much less unfortunately..

The other problem with the Heljan split box class 37 is the gear train - The last Gauge 0 Guild summary published on their forum was that out of 57 models, 25 had split Delrin gears requiring replacement! I'd go with the DJH kit.

[F-UnitMad]

...other active  modellers ... reckon the kits are just too dear to start with and this is not just locos.

Seems to me that JLTRT has fallen between several stools, maybe?

The kits are much more expensive than etched brass kits, even adding the usual wheels/gears/motors to the 'metal' kits. Adding wheels/gears/motors to JLTRT kits put them way over Heljan prices as well; they could be more accurate than HJ locos, but if a modeller's funds are lacking, then detail packs such as from Pete Harvey can work wonders on an HJ loco, without getting close to the total JLTRT cost, & is the sort of thing I suspect many of us now doing O scale, did years ago to our 4mm Hornby & Lima models.

Then there's duplication, & JLTRT have been up against that almost from the off, & with even cheaper R-T-R offerings recently such as Minerva 57xx/8750 pannier tanks, & Dapol 08, again if someone is Time- & Money- Poor, for me the choice is a no-brainer (even if I'm waiting for Dapol to do a late-version 08. It's not a 'must have' class for me).

In fact I think shortage of time & money may figure more in the way O Scale is shifting towards R-T-R, than lack of skills. After all, if most O Scalers started in the smaller scales, so aren't complete novices, & JLTRT kits are supposedly far simpler to build than etched brass kits; why weren't they selling like proverbial hot cakes? Price has to be a big factor.

I'm not saying "they should have been cheaper" - if that was the price they had to be, then so be it, but the subsequent market at that price clearly wasn't large enough to sustain the Company.