RTR vs Kits... Economics, Variety and Quality: a discussion.

[Clearwater]

To amplify Phil’s point, if you take your proposed price point and calculate your gross profit (sales minus cost of materials and production) ie excluding what you may want to make yourself per unit (for simplicity ignoring any amortisation costs of machines, software licences, ground rent etc), and take that gross profit and divide it by your pre tax salary to give you an idea of how many units you need to sell each and every year to maintain your standard of living. that will be an awful lot of £5/£10 items...

[bike2steam]

 And how many kit builders actually read the instructions if there were being honest with themselves?

 

Mike wiltshire

 

Yep, after you've done a few dozen loco kits you get into a routine.

[coachmann]

I produced cast parts to help a company really develop the RTR metal coach range back in the early 1980's. The LMS bogie was the most popular for a time, then one of the GWR bogies or the SR 8'. Everytime I ordered more spins, the butter mountain of bogies that didn't sell so well got bigger. Producing railway and bus accessories involved a lot of outlay, a lot of packing, invoicing and labeling and drives to the post. All I was doing was lining the pockets of casters, wheel and bearing makers and the post office, not to mention carrying stock for someone else to dip into when it pleased them. Bottom line......Not commercial. This applies to most kit producers. Buyers probably do not fully appreciate the implications.

 

I still carry stocks of LMS bogies, MR 8', 9' and 10' of several varieties, LNWR deepframe and Bulbiron in 8' and 9', but who wants bogie kits these days. Even with etched top plates and plastic-centre wheels, they are heavy. The hobby has moved on.

Edited March 9, 2018 by coachmann

[Jol Wilkinson]

The originator of this topic has started a similar one in a different, more appropriate,  "zone";

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/132049-plastic-locomotive-kits-a-discussion-and-views-to-the-future/

 

Those of you that have contributed here, may wish to take look and possibly get a sense of deja vu.

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

There has been much discussion so I thought it might be helpful to present a 'summing up table' - but please note that this is a V1 Draft Only. I would very much like your input as to anything I may have missed, under-stated or over-stated.

 

After a day or two, I will re-present the table with amends in red. This could then be used by new readers considering kits or RTR as an 'executive summary' - in other words, it cuts to the chase.

 

Those of you who know me from running similar ventures on (what was) MREmag will know that I do my utmost to remain impartial and present the facts. Please do not accuse me of bias in any direction! This is a working draft.

 

Many thanks

 

Brian

 

PS I'll spell 'Positives' correctly on the PDF next draft!

The Positves and Negatives of KIts and RTR V1 Draft 9.3.18.pdf

Edited March 9, 2018 by BMacdermott

[TheSignalEngineer]

 And how many kit builders actually read the instructions if there were being honest with themselves?

 

Mike wiltshire

See my signature line below.

[Phil Parker]

The originator of this topic has started a similar one in a different, more appropriate,  "zone";

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/132049-plastic-locomotive-kits-a-discussion-and-views-to-the-future/

 

Those of you that have contributed here, may wish to take look and possibly get a sense of deja vu.

Not quite. The realities of kit making and costing are being even more "vigorously" considered. I suspect third thread cannot be far away...

[The Johnster]

 And how many kit builders actually read the instructions if there were being honest with themselves?

 

Mike wiltshire

 

I always read the instructions assiduously.  It enables me to get it wrong with complete accuracy...

[Mad McCann]

T

I produced cast parts to help a company really develop the RTR metal coach range back in the early 1980's. The LMS bogie was the most popular for a time, then one of the GWR bogies or the SR 8'. Everytime I ordered more spins, the butter mountain of bogies that didn't sell so well got bigger. Producing railway and bus accessories involved a lot of outlay, a lot of packing, invoicing and labeling and drives to the post. All I was doing was lining the pockets of casters, wheel and bearing makers and the post office, not to mention carrying stock for someone else to dip into when it pleased them. Bottom line......Not commercial. This applies to most kit producers. Buyers probably do not fully appreciate the implications.

 

I still carry stocks of LMS bogies, MR 8', 9' and 10' of several varieties, LNWR deepframe and Bulbiron in 8' and 9', but who wants bogie kits these days. Even with etched top plates and plastic-centre wheels, they are heavy. The hobby has moved on.[/quote

 

To be fair, Larry, I can use better bogies than what Bachmann are putting under the portholes and inspection saloon these days.

I could probably still make good use of that stock!

 

D4

[Andy Hayter]

 I would very much like your input as to anything I may have missed, under-stated or over-stated.

 

 

Many thanks

 

Brian

 

 

 

 

 

That looks like a very fair summary Brian.

 

One point I might add is that the cost of new rtr can be a major disincentive to using these models as donors for cut and shut projects, or even re-liveries and minor alterations.

[Coach bogie]

Yep, after you've done a few dozen loco kits you get into a routine.

I was just curious. I was sending out some kits recently and the purchaser was not bothered about the instructions, just the historical notes. I must admit, I have not looked at the fine print for some time.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[BMacdermott]

That looks like a very fair summary Brian.

 

One point I might add is that the cost of new rtr can be a major disincentive to using these models as donors for cut and shut projects, or even re-liveries and minor alterations.

 

Thanks Andy.

 

Can you suggest a form of words that I can use to cover that, please? It's not really a negative of RTR, nor is it a positive of kits... as it's RTR(!). Hope you see the predicament.

 

Brian

[adb968008]

Hello everyone

 

There has been much discussion so I thought it might be helpful to present a 'summing up table' - but please note that this is a V1 Draft Only. I would very much like your input as to anything I may have missed, under-stated or over-stated.

 

After a day or two, I will re-present the table with amends in red. This could then be used by new readers considering kits or RTR as an 'executive summary' - in other words, it cuts to the chase.

 

Those of you who know me from running similar ventures on (what was) MREmag will know that I do my utmost to remain impartial and present the facts. Please do not accuse me of bias in any direction! This is a working draft.

 

Many thanks

 

Brian

 

PS I'll spell 'Positives' correctly on the PDF next draft!

Negatives for kits:

 

Paint finish.. dependant on skills of modeller / scarcity & costs of specialist to do this professionally.

risk of uncertain outcome with a kit (break something, lose bits etc)

Edited March 9, 2018 by adb968008

[BMacdermott]

Hello again Andy...just had a thought.

 

Is it a positive for RTR? (I already have a 'RTR negative' that states that RTR can be expensive.)

 

Brian

[BMacdermott]

Negatives for kits:

 

Paint finish.. dependant on skills of modeller / scarcity & costs of specialist to do this professionally.

risk of uncertain outcome with a kit (break something, lose bits etc)

Hello adb

 

I already have down that 'skill takes time to acquire', but am happy to add these two:

 

Risk of uncertain outcome (breakage, irrevocably gluing a wrong part upside down, nothing to show for your money if it goes wrong);

Cost of handing a part-finished kit to an (increasingly scarce) professional for completion.

 

I haven't referred to 'loss of parts' above as many kit providers seem happy enough 'to help out' when needed. However, it does become a problem if the kit is no longer produced etc.

 

Brian

[sem34090]

The second topic was to extract my idea, so that there wasn't multiple topics going on here.

 

The new topic allows that concept to be explored and probably shot down.

 

I don't really intend to set up a 'third topic'.

[Andy Hayter]

Thanks Andy.

 

Can you suggest a form of words that I can use to cover that, please? It's not really a negative of RTR, nor is it a positive of kits... as it's RTR(!). Hope you see the predicament.

 

Brian

 

It is perhaps a codicil to the negative that rtr models are expensive.  But in addition to the models just being expensive, it leads to all layouts of a particular subject looking the same because people don't want to risk spoiling (devaluing) their expensive model.  I am not sure quite how you phrase that but perhaps you could say the rtr negative "leads to a sameness in model layouts".  Even that is not quite fair because a lot of it is down to the high price and those who buy cheap second hand or remaindered stock may not be so constrained.

[hayfield]

Hello adb

 

I already have down that 'skill takes time to acquire', but am happy to add these two:

 

Risk of uncertain outcome (breakage, irrevocably gluing a wrong part upside down, nothing to show for your money if it goes wrong);

Cost of handing a part-finished kit to an (increasingly scarce) professional for completion.

 

I haven't referred to 'loss of parts' above as many kit providers seem happy enough 'to help out' when needed. However, it does become a problem if the kit is no longer produced etc.

 

Brian

 

Brian (at the risk of teaching grandma to suck eggs, though it may assist others)

 

The thing to do is to build up your skill base, by not starting with anything complicated. whilst it may be terribly unfashionable buy a second hand (cheap) small kit built loco (possibly with a RTR chassis), de-construct it and rebuild it, if unhappy with the results, then do it again. Try kit bashing with a plastic building, anything to both build your confidence and increase skills, this will also teach you problem solving skills, or get some card or plastic and just make something, no matter how simple 

 

On the other hand, if you make a simple metal loco kit, especially if its soldered, If you mess up with the paint job, you can strip the paint and do it again. Phoenix paints do a plastic friendly paint stripper. Another alternative is to buy a cheap plastic loco or loco body and repaint it.

[adb968008]

Hello adb

 

I already have down that 'skill takes time to acquire', but am happy to add these two:

 

Risk of uncertain outcome (breakage, irrevocably gluing a wrong part upside down, nothing to show for your money if it goes wrong);

Cost of handing a part-finished kit to an (increasingly scarce) professional for completion.

 

I haven't referred to 'loss of parts' above as many kit providers seem happy enough 'to help out' when needed. However, it does become a problem if the kit is no longer produced etc.

 

Brian

Hi Brian

 

I assume this is for research purposes, I guess the point I am trying to make, is kits, unlike rtr are mostly unpainted.

 

The risk is you build an excellent model... but have no way to put a decent paint job on it... or at worst make a painted hash of a very good model. This is a big weakness to kits, that rtr does not suffer from.

 

In my mind, painting is a far more delicate skill than model making itself, and a bad kit can be recovered by a great paint job, but it isn’t true in vice versa.

 

It’s a barrier to entry, if you know your going to fluff the paint finish, don’t bother to start the kit. Sadly that mantra is mine and a great many kits I’ve walked on past knowing I wouldn’t be able to replicate the paint job to do it justice, at least not in the next few years...

Edited March 9, 2018 by adb968008

[Willie Whizz]

"Ignoring the instructions" is a perfectly valid approach for those who've already built a dozen or more broadly similar models.

 

For a comparative newcomer, though, provision of a decent set of instructions is essential, vital even, if they are to have a fighting chance of making a proper job of any particular kit so as to get it to look right and run right.

 

Failure to be able to complete a kit to at least a reasonable standard is an expensive matter these days.  So expensive that the novice modeller may well be put-off making the attempt again.  Hence all these reports of a decline in kit-building that are so much bemoaned on here.  In that case, manufacturers' unwillingness or inability to take the necessary steps and, yes, incur the necessary costs to provide satisfactory instructions is, in the longer-term, shooting themselves in the foot.  A novice modeller who cannot complete your kit and therefore gives-up that aspect of the hobby is not going to be around to purchase another of your offerings later - and another - and even another if they really get the bug.  So your overall sales will remain low anyway, for reasons which have little to do with the obscurity or otherwise of the prototypes.

 

I am sorry if it offends anybody, but I will shed few tears for the demise of manufacturers of crap kits with crap instructions; in the modern world they have been largely the agents of their own demise.

[jjb1970]

I read the instructions before doing anything when building plastic kits, then use them during the build. If people don't use them that is their choice and it's true that experienced kit builders can often work without instructions or can improve the assembly method (although that depends on the complexity of the kit, I'm not sure you could do the more complex kits without instructions, at least not without going down quite a few blind alleys). However, the instructions should be there, they should be usable and tell you what you need to know about how the bits go together. Companies like Tamiya clearly put a lot of effort into their instruction sheets. I once built one of their high performance R/C cars to pass time on a ship and despite the vast number of parts, the complexity (4WD, limited slip diffs, oil filled dampers etc) and having to source servos and radio equipment separately the thing was a joy to put together and with the instructions being almost idiot proof.

[Mad McCann]

Instructions: indeed, the make or break of many a kit. From personal experience I can tell you that there are some older kits whose instructions weren’t even worth looking at for all the good they did.

However, at the opposite end of the scale you have guys like Chris Gibbon and Pete Stanger who produce excellent, well designed and produced instructions that pretty much take you by the hand and lead you through the process which if you follow it exactly will lead you to success.

No connection other than as a satisfied customer.

 

Good instruction makes building easy. The quality of the instructions in a kit are capable of inspiring confidence when done correctly. I’ve had plenty of experience of the other kind too which is why I only started proper kit building 9 years ago...

 

D4

[Clive Mortimore]

Any new kit these days should have clear photos of how the assembly should be followed. It doesn't cost anything to take photos with a digital camera, or to add them to text in a computer document (like Word). Save, copy to a memory stick, and take it to your friendly printer. 

 

There are too many kits that still have their instructions poorly photocopied from a typed manuscript. It is about time the manufacturers of these kits updated the instructions.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hello everyone

 

There has been much discussion so I thought it might be helpful to present a 'summing up table' - but please note that this is a V1 Draft Only. I would very much like your input as to anything I may have missed, under-stated or over-stated.

 

After a day or two, I will re-present the table with amends in red. This could then be used by new readers considering kits or RTR as an 'executive summary' - in other words, it cuts to the chase.

 

Those of you who know me from running similar ventures on (what was) MREmag will know that I do my utmost to remain impartial and present the facts. Please do not accuse me of bias in any direction! This is a working draft.

 

Many thanks

 

Brian

 

PS I'll spell 'Positives' correctly on the PDF next draft!

 

Brian,

 

what's the objective of this? 

 

Jol

[Phil Parker]

Any new kit these days should have clear photos of how the assembly should be followed. It doesn't cost anything to take photos with a digital camera,

Unless your time has no value then yes it does. I've taken thousands for magazines and very few don't benefit from a clean up and tweaks in editing software. A dozen photos can easily eat half a day...