RTR vs Kits... Economics, Variety and Quality: a discussion.

[sem34090]

And the quality is none-too-shabby either.

 

The plastic kits concept was a suggestion, however those of you with greater experience than I are pointing out the flaws, which is fair enough.

[JSpencer]

I do quite a bit of RTR bashing.

 

As for 3D printing, I have recently done CAD for an LSWR Adams G6, in 4mm, including chassis, for £16.75.

 

Without the chassis, it's £11.20.

 

So it doesn't have to be expensive.

 That is way forwards.

[sem34090]

Those prices are before I add a markup so that I actually get some money from them, but even so I could charge £30 and I'd still consider that reasonable for a kit that includes a chassis.

 

I'm probably going to charge about £25.

[Phil Parker]

Those prices are before I add a markup so that I actually get some money from them, but even so I could charge £30 and I'd still consider that reasonable for a kit that includes a chassis.

 

I'm probably going to charge about £25.

 

Which motor, wheels and gears have you designed the chassis to accept?

[sem34090]

That will be worked out once I have the chassis here to muck about with. That's why it isn't on sale yet.

[Phil Parker]

That will be worked out once I have the chassis here to muck about with. That's why it isn't on sale yet.

 

Surely that is fundamental to the design? You need to allow the appropriate space for the gearbox at the very least since this is going to have to fit between the frames. Also, unless you print in metal, you'll need bearings. It would be possible to fit these into a plastic chassis - I've done it with the Hornby 0-4-0 when I ftted Romfords to a Percy. 

[sem34090]

I have left as much space as possible within the body itself, and have based the initial chassis dimensions (i.e. chassis width and frame thickness) on a couple of kitbuilt locos I have, plus a file for a chassis (for an NLR 4-4-0 Tank) very kindly sent to me about a year ago by one of the members of this forum. the axle-hole diameter has been based on a set of Romfords (For a GWR City) that I was kindly given, again about a year ago, with some space left. When the chassis arrives I will be investigating what needs improving, and will then adjust the CAD as required. The chassis is available for sale, but I have made it clear in the description that it has yet to be test-printed and as such adjustments may be made in the future.

[hayfield]

Some people seemingly only read into a post what they want to read into it!

 

Most of the people I was referring to take great satisfaction from building kits, including plastic wagon and military kits. They produce some fine work, but the cost of loco kits puts them off, and it makes little sense for them to build them. People my age often have a severely limited income, and this is the younger end of the hobby where I feel no encouragement is being given for us to build kits. The more elderly members of the hobby seem to traditionally associate the younger end with everything-out-of-the-box 'Heritage Railways' (Run what you want) or modern scenes. Well, I know of at least one other person my age who models pre-grouping and a considerable number who model roughly 1935 - 1947, and many of them build wagon kits or building kits, even scratchbuilding of both.

 

As an example, and I don't wish this to be a personal criticism, but whenever I've approached the wizard models stand at a show I have been completely ignored when attempting to politely ask a question about one of their products, yet the proprietor is more than happy to talk to older members. So I never have purchased any LBSCR signal components from him. I found this with a few other traders at the last expoEM  I visited, a fantastic show with modelling to aspire to and some beautiful examples of kit and scratchbuilding, but some more or less thought I would know nothing and did not warrant their time or even conversation.

 

 

I am at the other end of the age spectrum from you, he has never talked to me either, so you are not alone, nor is it an age thing. I think in fact he is quite a shy person

[adb968008]

Surely that is fundamental to the design? You need to allow the appropriate space for the gearbox at the very least since this is going to have to fit between the frames. Also, unless you print in metal, you'll need bearings.

 

Silver foil in a cup shape in each axle grove, bent flat along the keeper plate to prevent movement.

To much use..it’s disposable and easily replaced.

 

Wheels need to be insulated though.

 

I did this on a model I had 20 years ago and just recently sold it, when I checked it before ebay It, the foil was still good, only double folded. I’ve several others which I’ve improvised using foil, I was thinking to do the recent Hornby 14xx rear wheels the same way to give it half mm, but I just got the spring instead.

Edited March 8, 2018 by adb968008

[TheSignalEngineer]

Coming into this thread a bit late but my experience has been some RTR out of the box, others renumbering to suit the area, livery variations, RTR bashing e.g. no top feed Airfix 14xx body, 64xx to 74xx. For wagons there are some essentials for my area only currently available kits or recently being produced such as the Boplate E, Plate, rivetted minerals, Banana vans, Mica B.

Coaching stock is even thinner on the ground e.g. the some of the most common LMS stock was Open Thirds which I am now cobbling up from Comet sides with RTR parts where possible. I've done a Period 2 Pull-push from RTR parts but what I need is a GWR panelled autocoach and suburbans.

To round up my opinion is that RTR is good at giving a flavour of the railway from about WW2 up to present but if you want a complete picture of something specific you need to do some bashing and kit building.

Edited March 8, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[The Johnster]

Noticed this thread, and there has been a mention of 3D printing. Despite what some say, it is the future, and I suspect there will be a drift towards r2r and 3D printing, and away from limited interest (and high development cost) kits. 3D printing might even stimulate interest in model building, as it is a nice half way stage, and might give someone the confidence to build a kit.

 

Look back to the 60s, and Wills loco kits were designed to fit r2r chassis. It did not stop someone building a chassis, and some feel more confident in that than scatchbuilding a loco body.

 

As this is under the Hornby section, it might be interesting to see if big companies pick up on the 3d printing market, not just as tool for prototyping. As long as they dont just listen to those who want a finished model. Some might not be able to build, or paint a model to the level they want, but I sometimes feel they are expecting too much. If they want, what are in effect profesionally built models, they they should expect to pay the price. People grumble that r2r costs too much, but it is in reality very good valued.

 

I don't know if it is just railway modelling, but I have noticed no decline in new plastic injection models for military modellers, production in both China and the Ukraine.

 

3D printing is very likely the future, but it's not here properly yet.  I use the very good Modelu 3D prints, which certainly prove the potential, but for commercial use in a loco or rolling stock kit we are talking about designing in the method and order of assembly with regard to the fact that amateur modellers will be building it, and this is no advance or even difference over plastic, whitemetal, resin, or brass kits; a kit is a kit, and stands or falls by ease of assembly and the ability of the modeller to attain a decent standard of finished product.  

 

Many of us are scared of soldering (my own efforts seem to vary according to atmospheric pressure, and are never wonderful), and have had enough bad experiences to realise that, whatever those who can solder properly say.  Unless you have a fair degree of predictable skill in soldering, anything other than a resin or plastic kit is going to be a bit of a gamble, and the high price of the finished model with no guarantee of success is bound to make good RTR more attractive to you.

 

I think there may be a future for 3D printed plastic kits with high quality parts, retailing at about £50 for a loco complete with can motor, wheels, gears, and pickups, say £20 for a coach, and £10 for wagons.  But painting, lining, and numbering will still be left to the modeller (the latter two items could of course be included as decals or transfers in the kit, Airfix style).  Perhaps such items as bogies, standard boilers and other standard parts, and underframe details could be made available to order Modelu style.

 

But, to be honest, I doubt if I will embark on another kit at my time of life.  Kits are expensive, difficult to source, my numbering skills are not what they were, and RTR can supply the bulk of my needs.  That said, if Dapol are thinking of releasing a 4mm scale Diagram N auto trailer in kit form, put me down for one please!  And I still need to build a Ratio GWR 4-wheel brake 3rd to complete a workman's rake.

Edited March 8, 2018 by The Johnster

[Big James]

Coming into this late. I would like to do kit building but doing some weeks 40+ hours a week in shift work leaves me little time to build kits and little energy to work on anything but the scenery. Except on the rare occasions I have 2 days off on the trot. I’m now on holiday for 2 weeks and I’ve done more work on the layout in the last 3 days then I have in the last 3 months. So for me RTR is a boon.

 

Big james

Edited March 8, 2018 by Big James

[Clearwater]

Wizard tend to be busy at shows so an in depth conversation may be difficult to have as understandably the proprietor is focused on immediate sales and not giving advice. However, I’ve found that

A) whenever I’ve emailed them, I’ve got a prompt response to any specific questions

B) when I’ve sat down with demonstrators at shows, then they’ve been helpful about answering queries. Often better at the slightly smaller larger shows - eg railex/scaleforum which have the array of trade but not the crowds of eg Warley. You may need to be patient to wait your turn mind!

C) start a thread here with specific kit building questions and no doubt you’ll get a flood of replies from those who do build kits

 

The LocoBuilder on YouTube (Grob1234 on here) is also a good watch and learn source

 

David

[hayfield]

I understand your point, Phil, but I and others I know don't have £180 to spend on a kit. It's a hard enough push for £99 to get the RTR edition.

 

Like all things you can buy new items, which you have to pay the going rate

 

However for those who wish to dip a toe into this market just keep your eyes open and look for opportunities on the 2nd hand market, they will not drop into your lap as simply if they are easy for you to find they are also simple for others to find. As I have said before each week eBay sells poorly made (complete) whitemetal loco kits for not much money, a little time spent returning them to a kit of parts will give the modeller an excellent low cost introduction to kit building.

 

This would be a good example, as it uses a RTR chassis. In the future you could upgrade the chassis to an etched one

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4mm-SCALE-WHITE-METAL-KIT-BUILT-SOUTHERN-RAILWAY-CLASS-Q-0-6-0-TENDER/112844115012?hash=item1a46088c44:g:Ok8AAOSwd8FamBKT

 

Better still just needs a Hornby old style Jinty chassis, again in the future an etched one could be built

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wills-Finecast-GWR-2251-Loco-And-Tender-Kit/312082693367?hash=item48a993fcf7:g:PNwAAOSwk2taoEHn

 

I have just bought an unmade 7 mm scale GWR etched brass Siphon F for £13 + postage, I took an educated punt on a badly produced listing. It has 1 kilo of brass etchings !!

[Jol Wilkinson]

That will be worked out once I have the chassis here to muck about with. That's why it isn't on sale yet.

 

Which seems like an odd way to go about designing something. Designing a loco "kit" without knowing what wheels are available to match the prototype, then ensuring you have clearances for  the wheels, motor and drive system is surely fundamental to the design process.

[sem34090]

My own version was designed around an RTR chassis.

 

However, I also ordered a chassis to enable me to refine the design.

 

You have to remember I've never built a chassis to date, so I wanted the physical chassis in my hands to experiment with. If it needs large changes, then I will withdraw it from sale. At the moment I am fairly confident (I did consult a number of people for advice, and took elements of the design from a successful 3D printed chassis.) that it will work.

Edited March 8, 2018 by sem34090

[JSpencer]

Which seems like an odd way to go about designing something. Designing a loco "kit" without knowing what wheels are available to match the prototype, then ensuring you have clearances for  the wheels, motor and drive system is surely fundamental to the design process.

That always struck me as an after thought on most white metal kits I,ve ever built. My Bugatti nosed Cock of the North, lovely huge model, motor space smaller than a penny!

[TheSignalEngineer]

Like all things you can buy new items, which you have to pay the going rate

 

However for those who wish to dip a toe into this market just keep your eyes open and look for opportunities on the 2nd hand market, they will not drop into your lap as simply if they are easy for you to find they are also simple for others to find. As I have said before each week eBay sells poorly made (complete) whitemetal loco kits for not much money, a little time spent returning them to a kit of parts will give the modeller an excellent low cost introduction to kit building.

 

Quite a few of my wagon fleet came like that. Six minerals from Airfix, Parkside and Cambrian kits cost me £6 plus a pack of Hornby wheels, some bearings and a few replacement couplings. I got an LMS CCT and GWR Python complete but needing rebuilds for £7 the pair and a Jinty with damaged exhauster but otherwise excellent made a steam brake only version for £30, a bit of filler and a respray. Edited March 8, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[Clive Mortimore]

Earlier I mentioned scratch building, have a look at what Scott is doing, and he doesn't seem to want to spend a lot of money. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129965-myour-carriage-scratch-building-thread/

[sem34090]

A rather inspiring thread! I shall have to investigate that one further...

[jjb1970]

I think the difficulty here is that we are talking about two different "markets". The military and aviation market (you can add the static car and motor bike kit sector as well, to some degree) are, I believe, much more international. Tamiya, for example, are able to sell their products worldwide because they are excellent kits of items that are known and seen worldwide. UK railway subjects probably have a rather more limited appeal. Many of these kits are also not cheap. A friend and his grown up son model scale WW2 warships, kits costing several hundreds of pounds, with the same for the exquisite detailing packs.

The day of the two bob Airfix kit, bought in the local toy shop or Woolworths are long gone, replaced by the likes of Lego quick, easy, versatile, reusable, etc. that appeal to today's children and parents.

We are therefore more dependant, for UK model railways on what has usually been referred to as a cottage or kitchen table industry. Most are very small businesses, where the proprietor does everything from design, through producing/sourcing the product, packing, etc, etc. They don't always have the skills to produce packaging artwork, heavily illustrated instructions, etc. that larger companies can. I know from experience of running a model shop some years ago, what the German or Japanese manufacturers would provide in the R/C aircraft or boat kits, what Tamiya, Revell,and others would do. Even there, the UK producers did not match up in terms of product quality, instructions, packaging, etc. but relied on lower price to get sales.

So we have to recognise that the UK market is probably not capable of supporting the sort of kits people have said they would like. Prices would be too high, because sales volumes aren't big enough. Our demands for low cost, quick and easy results, means that the majority of modellers will continue, increasingly, look to the RTR manufacturers to supply what they want, produced by cheap overseas manufacturing.

Those that want to build their own models, create something different, will continue to kit build, kit bash, scratchbuild, adapt RTR, etc. It would be great if things were "better", but I don't see how the economics of this hobby, the skill sets of most modellers (and their unwillingness in many cases to improve them) and the emphasis given to RTR in the media, on internet forums, etc. is likely to encourage any significant change in what we currently have.

I don't dispute any of that, but unfortunately it doesn't really matter. If people expectations are based on experiences with the very professionally produced plastic kits made by the big Asian manufacturers or even the new generation Airfix kits (Airfix have been producing some superb kits) then if people try railway kits and find they are not of the same standard despite being a lot more expensive they are not really going to have an especially positive impression.

 

Something that kit makers could put more effort into which could perhaps make a big difference at relatively low cost is to provide good, comprehensive instructions. A lot of the high end mixed media military vehicle kits are aimed at accomplished modellers yet they still provide comprehensive instructions. Over the years I've fitted quite a lot of upgrade kits to big engines and various engineering systems and despite those kits being supplied for fitting by trained and certificated engineers they came with detailed instructions. To me, good instructions are a must, regardless of any other arguments. Like I say, I'd rather scratch build than try and figure out how some of the white metal and brass kits I've seen friends trying to build go together.

[Coach bogie]

 

Something that kit makers could put more effort into which could perhaps make a big difference at relatively low cost is to provide good, comprehensive instructions. A lot of the high end mixed media military vehicle kits are aimed at accomplished modellers yet they still provide comprehensive instructions. Over the years I've fitted quite a lot of upgrade kits to big engines and various engineering systems and despite those kits being supplied for fitting by trained and certificated engineers they came with detailed instructions. To me, good instructions are a must, regardless of any other arguments. Like I say, I'd rather scratch build than try and figure out how some of the white metal and brass kits I've seen friends trying to build go together.

 And how many kit builders actually read the instructions if there were being honest with themselves?

 

Mike wiltshire

[Phil Parker]

Something that kit makers could put more effort into which could perhaps make a big difference at relatively low cost is to provide good, comprehensive instructions. A lot of the high end mixed media military vehicle kits are aimed at accomplished modellers yet they still provide comprehensive instructions. Over the years I've fitted quite a lot of upgrade kits to big engines and various engineering systems and despite those kits being supplied for fitting by trained and certificated engineers they came with detailed instructions. To me, good instructions are a must, regardless of any other arguments. Like I say, I'd rather scratch build than try and figure out how some of the white metal and brass kits I've seen friends trying to build go together.

 

There speaks someone who's never written instructions I suspect! Good instructions take a LOT of time to produce.

 

Most of the kitmakers in the UK are one-man-bands. Tamiya etc. will have a team of people who just do this all day, but don't have to design and manufacture the bits in the box, or buy the box itself. The numbers of kits sold justify this. If you are going to be lucky to shift 100 units, spending a week drawing and writing instructions will add at least £10 to each model sold. The UK market is very price sensitive and won't stand for this. Sell abroad (impossible for a OO model) and you have a better chance as Europe and US are less fixated on the lowest price. 

 

You also really want someone to write the instructions who can look at the model with a fresh pair of eyes, putting themselves in the position of the builder, not someone who has lived with the project for months or years and can easily ignore some of the wrinkles in the design. That means your kit manufacturer has to ship a kit to someone else and pay them to build it, adding even more to the overall cost. It's a good thing to do, but probably pushes the price up so far no-one will buy it. A good example is the DJH Beginners kit which does have excellent instructions, but at a price the OP considered far too high. 

 

Another example would be any partwork model. Those come with fully illustrated step-by-step instructions. At a cost that you will see from elsewhere on this forum, has potential buyers spitting feathers.

[Phil Parker]

Those prices are before I add a markup so that I actually get some money from them, but even so I could charge £30 and I'd still consider that reasonable for a kit that includes a chassis.

 

I'm probably going to charge about £25.

 

How many hours did it take to do the CAD? How many hours for all the development including the chassis?

 

How many do you expect to sell?

 

How much did you cost your time at on an hourly rate? 

 

I'm guessing that the last figure is £0 - Which means this is a hobby and not a business. All the product prices so far mentioned would be a lot lower is everyone would work for free. Sadly, Tesco are a bit funny when you get to the checkout and say, "I've got no money but you can see a really neat model kit I've developed."

 

I'm not saying you are wrong - far from it, many of our cottage industries started as hobbies - but there are overheads everyone has to consider that add to the final price. For a start, if you make any money, the tax man will want his cut!

[hayfield]

Mike

 

Look at the instructions that were around in the 60's/70's, or those supplied with Airfix kits

 

I am building a Roxey 7mm loco kit, whilst it is reasonably comprehensive, still lacking in places, though to some extent quite long enough, its all about getting a balance. 

 

The trouble is the instructions have to cover both modellers varying ability to construct, also depth/lack of knowledge of the subject in hand