RTR vs Kits... Economics, Variety and Quality: a discussion.

[dibber25]

Unless your time has no value then yes it does. I've taken thousands for magazines and very few don't benefit from a clean up and tweaks in editing software. A dozen photos can easily eat half a day...

 

Regardless of cost, any kit should have a good set of instructions, with or without step-by-step photographs. One of the things which has destroyed the kit market and given the hobby over to ready-to-run to such a large extent, is the poor nature of instructions in kits. In more than 50 years in this hobby I can't think of any locomotive kit that I've built or seen, that had adequate, good quality instructions. I can, however, remember the worst - an MTK Class 73. The instructions consisted of one side of a sheet of paper with a hand drawn (scribbled) diagram of the parts and the written instruction "Have good photos for best detail". The problem with most kits was that they were one-man band cottage industry products. The guy who designed and manufactured them, knew how they went together but he wasn't necessarily good at explaining it to others, and unfortunately the better kits often required above average skill levels to build them. (CJL)

[brossard]

I think the best kit I've seen for instructions was the Masterclass BR Mk 1 CCT etched kit by Chriss Higgs.  (http://masterclass-models.blogspot.ca/)  The instructions themselves were pretty good, but there were references to Flickr albums containing excellent pictures of the build in progress and of the prototype.  While I never built this kit, I did do the JLTRT CCT.  The instructions were quite poor and ironically I found the the 4mm kit instructions and pictures extremely helpful.  Don't worry I found a buyer for the 4mm kit and it has gone to a good home.

 

Then again, there are kit manufacturers who assume that the buyer is experienced and conversant with the prototype, so only the merest of instruction is necessary.

 

John

[Clive Mortimore]

Unless your time has no value then yes it does. I've taken thousands for magazines and very few don't benefit from a clean up and tweaks in editing software. A dozen photos can easily eat half a day...

Sorry but even a reasonable photo taken on a phone and not edited to a magazine standard is better than a photocopy of a photocopy which the sentence telling you how to assemble the valve gear was on a fold on the now lost original typed instructions. 

 

Many of the photos taken by the modellers on here are not cleaned up or tweaked but they show what the person posting is doing with his/her models. That as a standard is better than the instructions found with most kits. And surely if you wish to sell another kit time spent making sure the modeller does not put the kit to one side, as I have, surely to give clear instructions and a picture is better than five or six waffley sentences is an investment.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[PatB]

Jim McGeown of Connoisseur not only provides excellent instructions, he also does a variety of "how-to" booklets on stuff like soldering, mechanisms etc. All available as free downloads from his website. It can be done.

[brossard]

Quite right Pat.  I recently built one Jims kits and it was most enjoyable.

 

John

[2ManySpams]

Another vote for Jim's kits and instructions. I've also got in the build pile a Finney7 Bulleid Light Pacific kit. The guys that have taken over this range have IMO done a superb job of revisiting the original Martin Finney kits, improving them and producing absolutely top notch, step by step photo-based instructions. Two cases I'm aware of showing it can be done.

 

On the flip side there are IMO too many kits out there with poor instructions, etched parts that don't fit or are incorrect, and awful quality castings.

 

Now the old hands have the knowledge, skills and tools to tackle these awful kits but what about the newcomer? The newcomer needs early successes to continue seeing worthwhile results from not inconsiderable investments in time and money. Early fails help promote the idea that kit building is only for an elite few and supports folk turning towards RTR.

 

My first encounter with 7mm kits was one from Agenoria. Not a cheap kit but certainly one that left much to be desired. Constant setbacks from that build left me with the conclusion that I wasn't suited to kit building. The kit got put to one side and the whole idea of a 7mm layout almost abandoned. Jim from Connoisseur came to the rescue and his excellent kit made me realise that the previous failings weren't all mine and gave me the confidence to continue with Pencarrow.

 

Whilst it is often said on forums that folk today are lazy, don't want to learn new skills and want everything handed to them on a plate, I strongly believe that the manufacturers of poor kits have a lot to answer for in the reported drop in popularity of kit building.

[jjb1970]

I think it depends on what kit producers and their enthusiasts want. If they are happy to exist in a declining niche of modelling which will probably die out to all intents and purposes then none of the things mentioned in this thread matter.

 

If people want to grow the kit segment and encourage more people to build kits then that is only going to happen if kits are produced to high standards, which includes usable instructions.

 

The presence of good RTR doesn't have to mean that kits die. I make military vehicle kits, the fact that there are lots of excellent die-cast model tanks now, better finished than most kits ever end up like hasn't killed kits. There are still plenty of people who enjoy making things, Hobbycraft still finds plenty of customers for craft materials. If kits are well produced there is still a good market for them in other model hobbies.

Edited March 10, 2018 by jjb1970

[hayfield]

Regardless of cost, any kit should have a good set of instructions, with or without step-by-step photographs. One of the things which has destroyed the kit market and given the hobby over to ready-to-run to such a large extent, is the poor nature of instructions in kits. In more than 50 years in this hobby I can't think of any locomotive kit that I've built or seen, that had adequate, good quality instructions. I can, however, remember the worst - an MTK Class 73. The instructions consisted of one side of a sheet of paper with a hand drawn (scribbled) diagram of the parts and the written instruction "Have good photos for best detail". The problem with most kits was that they were one-man band cottage industry products. The guy who designed and manufactured them, knew how they went together but he wasn't necessarily good at explaining it to others, and unfortunately the better kits often required above average skill levels to build them. (CJL)

 

 

MTK !!!!

 

It is rumored that the undertakers had a heck of a job trying to get the lid to fit the coffin

Edited March 10, 2018 by hayfield

[2ManySpams]

Regarding instructions, I think these are some of the best:

 

http://www.finney7.co.uk/Instructions%20Page.htm

 

Seeing photos of the kit being built also gives you an element of confidence the kit does actually go together. The chap who did the test build for the Bulleids also covered the build step by step on a forum. 

 

Some will argue that takes time and effort but I wonder what impact this increased visibility had on sales? I was certainly in a long queue to collect mine at a show. Effort in = sales out?

[hayfield]

I would think the kit manufacturers are on a hiding to nothing trying to get a set of instructions which all levels can use, Wills (Finecast) send a set of generic as well as a product specific guide.

 

A few things come to mind,

 

1 Having a generic set of detailed instructions either product specific or generic available for novice builders

 

2 The novice builder investing in one of Mr Rice's books to supplement the companies instructions

 

3 Perhaps the Manufacturers could rate their products in degrees of difficulty, even if they feel they have no kits in the range that fits one or more catagories

 

4 Motor mounts/gear boxes, most manufacturers seem happy to supply items which are difficult to mesh. High Level Models seem to be the exception, as I find they both go together easily and work. Its a great pity manufacturers do not either raise their game or supply ready meshed gear boxes as for me this is one of the achilles heels of kit building 

[Clearwater]

Being able to download instructions in advance of purchase is helpful. Comet’s guides are useful in this regards too albeit they look a generation before in terms of presentation. Having a pdf is great - you can zoom in, doesn’t matter if you lose, you can print multiple times if you want to annotate different parts of the diagram etc.

 

David

[BMacdermott]

It is perhaps a codicil to the negative that rtr models are expensive.  But in addition to the models just being expensive, it leads to all layouts of a particular subject looking the same because people don't want to risk spoiling (devaluing) their expensive model.  I am not sure quite how you phrase that but perhaps you could say the rtr negative "leads to a sameness in model layouts".  Even that is not quite fair because a lot of it is down to the high price and those who buy cheap second hand or remaindered stock may not be so constrained.

Thanks Andy

 

I already have the statement below under 'KIt Positives' (but I have added to 'RTR Positives' that they facilitate cut-n-shuts etc).

 

Brian

 

Enable layouts to ‘look different’ to many on the exhibition circuit.

[BMacdermott]

Brian,

 

what's the objective of this? 

 

Jol

Hello Jol

 

The purpose - as stated in my posting - is to sum up the comments into a clear, concise, balanced report. Readers can make what they make of it.

 

If anything comes of this, I sincerely hope kit makers will heed the comments about instructions. I know that I have ruined a number of wagon kits because of poor instructions or diagrams.

 

Brian

[Jol Wilkinson]

I think it depends on what kit producers and their enthusiasts want. If they are happy to exist in a declining niche of modelling which will probably die out to all intents and purposes then none of the things mentioned in this thread matter.

 

If people want to grow the kit segment and encourage more people to build kits then that is only going to happen if kits are produced to high standards, which includes usable instructions.

 

The presence of good RTR doesn't have to mean that kits die. I make military vehicle kits, the fact that there are lots of excellent die-cast model tanks now, better finished than most kits ever end up like hasn't killed kits. There are still plenty of people who enjoy making things, Hobbycraft still finds plenty of customers for craft materials. If kits are well produced there is still a good market for them in other model hobbies.

 

Those kit producers that I know (all very small businesses in the grand scheme of model railways) do not set out to produce poor products or instructions (although one believes his kits are so straightforward you don't need them). Many started out to create kits they wanted for their own modelling and found sufficient interest in what they had produced to make it viable to manufacture and sell what they had designed, Other produced a small batch to cover their initial cost and then stopped as it wasn't worth the effort to produce any more for what was an insignificant income for the time it took.

 

So what we have is a group of Small Suppliers, many of whom continue because their is a demand but not because it is a highly profitable business. Most customers accept that and if those businesses stop producing, they will miss those products. where the original owner has retired, that many ranges new owners surely proves a demand exists, albeit small compared to tehe production volumes of the RTR manufacturers.. Of the 4mm ranges available when I started out building models over forty years ago a number have gone, probably the most notable being K's. Nucast, Millholme and  Wills still exist in new hands. New producers have come into the market but in the last twenty years only, as far memory serves, only D&S closed although limited runs of some kits are still produced. Of course there may be others and I am sure someone will rush to fill in the gaps.

 

Instructions are an issue, both for the writer and kit builder. Having designed a number of kits and bits I know how difficult it is to decide how much content to put in and sometimes Pareto's Law is too easily to apply. Ten A4 pages of text, three or four of isometric drawings, parts list, numbered etch outline and scale drawing of the model. Assembly photos would be great but would add a considerable time and cost, both in taking and "tuning" them as well as getting the instructions printed at a satisfactory print standard. Example of exceptional instructions have been quoted but I know those are usually for 7mm kits. There is generally more margin in 7mm kits to support greater investment in the instructions and in some cases, such as Finney kits, that was be spread over 4mm and 7mm versions although even those don't have any photographic content.

 

Comparing UK kit suppliers instruction with those of large scale international operations such as Tamiya, Revell, Airfix, etc. isn't realistic. Yes, it would be great to have something comparable but it isn't really economically viable for our small suppliers. That isn't to say that there isn't room for improvement and some very practical and worthwhile suggestions have been put forward.

 

As for Hobbycraft being a barometer of creative hobby interest, our local store has very little of the traditional boy's and men's hobbies content and when ever I have visited to get some Humbrol paint , very rarely do I see another male in there. 

 

Perhaps what this topic illustrates is that this hobby has effectively divided into two sectors. Those who are happy with RTR products and which suit their modelling requirement's for whatever reasons and those who enjoy the satisfaction gained from building their own models. To persuade someone to move from RTR to kits is probably increasingly difficult, because of the improvements in RTR, the death of the traditional high street model shop (where kits, bits, advice and guidance were available) and internet forums and media providing considerable exposure to RTR products. The kit producers don't have the resources to compete with the latter, but do usually provide good support to their customers with advice and guidance. Some do it though face to face contact at exhibitions, by email or phone, a few through forums such as RMweb.

 

If kit building is slowly dying, then that is probably more as a result of "modellers" increasingly not being interested in building their own models, than the existing kit suppliers failing to supply cheap, simple kits. Brian's draft "The Positives and Negatives of Kits and RTR" has some telling views quoted in it. E.g, under Kit Negatives "Kit builders need to develop skills" rather than under Kit Positives "Promotes the development of new skills".

[bike2steam]

I would think the kit manufacturers are on a hiding to nothing trying to get a set of instructions which all levels can use, Wills (Finecast) send a set of generic as well as a product specific guide.

 

A few things come to mind,

 

1 Having a generic set of detailed instructions either product specific or generic available for novice builders

 

2 The novice builder investing in one of Mr Rice's books to supplement the companies instructions

 

3 Perhaps the Manufacturers could rate their products in degrees of difficulty, even if they feel they have no kits in the range that fits one or more catagories

 

4 Motor mounts/gear boxes, most manufacturers seem happy to supply items which are difficult to mesh. High Level Models seem to be the exception, as I find they both go together easily and work. Its a great pity manufacturers do not either raise their game or supply ready meshed gear boxes as for me this is one of the achilles heels of kit building 

 

I'd also include, for 2) the old Tony Wright book published by Irwell Press (1998), and for 4) similar to what Slater's used (?) to do with O gauge when I dabbled in it 20 to 25 years ago. 

[BMacdermott]

 

If kit building is slowly dying, then that is probably more as a result of "modellers" increasingly not being interested in building their own models, than the existing kit suppliers failing to supply cheap, simple kits. Brian's draft "The Positives and Negatives of Kits and RTR" has some telling views quoted in it. E.g, under Kit Negatives "Kit builders need to develop skills" rather than under Kit Positives "Promotes the development of new skills".

Hello Jol

 

You have misquoted me and put a different slant on the matter. What I actually said was:

Kit builders need to develop skills over time.

 

The key factor there is 'over time'. I agree that it is great to develop such skills for all sorts of reasons...but many simply don't have time. I will, however, gladly add a note to 'KIt Positives' to that effect.

 

Brian

[jjb1970]

If kit building is slowly dying, then that is probably more as a result of "modellers" increasingly not being interested in building their own models, than the existing kit suppliers failing to supply cheap, simple kits. Brian's draft "The Positives and Negatives of Kits and RTR" has some telling views quoted in it. E.g, under Kit Negatives "Kit builders need to develop skills" rather than under Kit Positives "Promotes the development of new skills".

 

But is that the case? As I noted before, the presence of a lot of superbly done diecast aircraft and military vehicle models has not killed off plastic kits. The availability of high performance ready built R/C cars does not seem to have killed R/C kits. And despite a lot of comment about people today not liking to build things and wanting to lift things out of a box, arts and crafts are thriving in many areas. My wife does sugar craft and confectionary and cross stitch and does some amazing things. I should be a natural candidate for model railway kits as I make plastic kits, love trains and have probably above average metal working skills as a result of professional experience in engineering yet after having dipped a toe in railway kits I decided it wasn't my cup of tea. I probably have the skills, but as I've said a couple of times I'd rather start from scratch than battle with a bad kit.

 

I think people need to recognise that some of the kits out there are a big part of the problem, arguably more so than whether or not people have the skills or confidence to have a go. If people thought that kits went together well and came with good instructions then they might be more willing to have a go? Otherwise why do people take up all sorts of other demanding hobbies that require a lot of application and skills development, including sports? Certainly if Tamiya, Trumpeter, Dragon, Airfix, Revell etc kits were produced to the standard of some of the railway kits I still see then I wouldn't build those either (I avoid vac-form assisted scratchbuild kits like the plagues).

 

Again, if it is a closed hobby and producers just make a few extra kits after serving their own needs then none of this matters, however people can't complain or dismiss those who stick to RTR if kits don't match the expectations of those who might otherwise be interested.

Edited March 10, 2018 by jjb1970

[Paul Cram]

But is that the case? As I noted before, the presence of a lot of superbly done diecast aircraft and military vehicle models has not killed off plastic kits. The availability of high performance ready built R/C cars does not seem to have killed R/C kits. And despite a lot of comment about people today not liking to build things and wanting to lift things out of a box, arts and crafts are thriving in many areas. My wife does sugar craft and confectionary and cross stitch and does some amazing things. I should be a natural candidate for model railway kits as I make plastic kits, love trains and have probably above average metal working skills as a result of professional experience in engineering yet after having dipped a toe in railway kits I decided it wasn't my cup of tea. I probably have the skills, but as I've said a couple of times I'd rather start from scratch than battle with a bad kit.

 

I think people need to recognise that some of the kits out there are a big part of the problem, arguably more so than whether or not people have the skills or confidence to have a go. If people thought that kits went together well and came with good instructions then they might be more willing to have a go? Otherwise why do people take up all sorts of other demanding hobbies that require a lot of application and skills development, including sports? Certainly if Tamiya, Trumpeter, Dragon, Airfix, Revell etc kits were produced to the standard of some of the railway kits I still see then I wouldn't build those either (I avoid vac-form assisted scratchbuild kits like the plagues).

 

Again, if it is a closed hobby and producers just make a few extra kits after serving their own needs then none of this matters, however people can't complain or dismiss those who stick to RTR if kits don't match the expectations of those who might otherwise be interested.

As I don't know which kits you have tried to build it is difficult to know where the problem lies, however comparing the kits of large scale suppliers with kits of cottage industries is like comparing apples with pears. The small scale producers are not trying to make a living from production of kits. If people want to make kits they will if not they won't. No one is saying they should but it is no point them bemoaning the lack of locomotives to model a particular region if the RTR boys don't see it as a worthwhile model. As always there is a choice and all those of us who make kits do is point out the alternative.

 

It does seem strange that some who claim not to have the time to make kitrs seem to spemd hours on formums psoting comments but that is their choice.

[Craigw]

 

The presence of good RTR doesn't have to mean that kits die. I make military vehicle kits, the fact that there are lots of excellent die-cast model tanks now, better finished than most kits ever end up like hasn't killed kits. There are still plenty of people who enjoy making things, Hobbycraft still finds plenty of customers for craft materials. If kits are well produced there is still a good market for them in other model hobbies.

 

The markets are fundamentally different though.

 

A good chunk of the railway modelling fraternity are interested in operating trains and that is the main thing they want to do. In the past, they built kits - or had them built - because there was nothing else.  Now, there is a tremendous amount of good RTR and they do not have to kit build so they don't.

 

Military Modelling is mostly about building the model. Some build out of the box, but a healthy number of people will get the reference books and after market parts to ensure that the Pz.Kpfw IV Ausf. H is correct for the tank in 6 Kompanie of Panzer Regiment 12 of 12SS Panzer Division Hitler Jugend.

 

The two are not comparable.

 

Incidentally, there is also discussion in Military Modelling of the ageing demographics.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Willie Whizz]

Unless your time has no value then yes it does. I've taken thousands for magazines and very few don't benefit from a clean up and tweaks in editing software. A dozen photos can easily eat half a day...

 

Then let the "half a day" be eaten, and chalk it up along with the other R & D costs of producing your kit in the first place, if you are even keeping track.

 

We keep being told as an excuse that many smaller kit producers don't seriously operate as a business, but do it 'for love' or whatever.  Can't have it both ways, Phil.  If it has already taken them many weeks to reaearch, design and produce then what's another day spent producing useable instructions, in the great scheme of things?

[hayfield]

I'd also include, for 2) the old Tony Wright book published by Irwell Press (1998), and for 4) similar to what Slater's used (?) to do with O gauge when I dabbled in it 20 to 25 years ago. 

 

Sorry not to include this one which I am not aware of, I can see why some are so shy of building expensive kits, but there is a lot of learning before you should get to this stage. Plus just keep your eyes open for oppertunities

 

At my local shop 2 days ago I spied a laser cut goods shed for £6, I have been wanting to try out this medium for quite some time. The kit is completely untouched and looking online has a price of £36. Now I can try out both building and painting techniques before buying a couple of larger scale kits. At £6 less than a couple of pints at my local and better for my waistline  

[BMacdermott]

 

It does seem strange that some who claim not to have the time to make kitrs seem to spemd hours on formums psoting comments but that is their choice.

 

Hello Paul

 

There is a difference between 'time per se' and 'appropriate time'.

 

I am one that 'doesn't have time' due to caring activities. I am writing this as my disabled wife is currently 'safe' - but she might not be in a few moments if she needs to move from room to room and has a risk of falling. Hence, having a soldering iron in one hand and a tube of glue in the other is not an option.

 

Brian

[Clearwater]

Tony Wright’s book is still available I believe. I brought a copy a year or so ago. It is currently enthralling a younger generation:

 

 

However, I think he’s a little small yet to be allowed too near a soldering iron, knife or other tool!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hello Jol

 

You have misquoted me and put a different slant on the matter. What I actually said was:

Kit builders need to develop skills over time.

 

The key factor there is 'over time'. I agree that it is great to develop such skills for all sorts of reasons...but many simply don't have time. I will, however, gladly add a note to 'KIt Positives' to that effect.

 

Brian

 

I disagree Brian,

 

the key factor is acquiring skills, whether quickly or over time. RTR requires very little skill, but learning kit building skills requires more commitment. It is often the desire or the will to learn those skills that is often lacking, as I have found when talking to modellers at shows when helping one of the kit producers. Perhaps the culture of many clubs also doesn't lend it self to model making, as I know from personal experience.

 

However, I feel I am very much in a minority is supporting that aspect of model railways so will retire and nothing further to this thread.

 

Jol

[dibber25]

MTK !!!!

 

It is rumored that the undertakers had a heck of a job trying to get the lid to fit the coffin

 

That is SO old!! but still funny. We should film Dave Lowery and me talking about MTK! Colin Massingham was certainly one of the great characters of this hobby (incredibly hard-working and affable) and when I lived in Old Windsor, his shop in Slough was my closest 'model railway shop'. I still have his first loco kit - the Class 24 with two Tri-ang motor bogies. It wasn't a bad kit for its day but unfortunately it all went downhill from there - casting patterns made from Plastic Padding etc. Mind you, the early 'new boys' in RTR weren't much better. I still have a letter to a retailer from a UK RTR manufacturer explaining why he couldn't spray 'OO' coaches because the weather was damp! Maybe I should write a book........ (CJL)