Lenz Standard+ or Zimo M600R DCC decoder?

[D1056WesternSultan]

I am currently trying to standardise on decoders across my diesel fleet since Bachmann have withdrawn their excellent 36-553 and 36-554 ESU based decoders. 

 

21 pin dcc ready locos are being fitted with the Lenz 21+ decoder and I am now seeking the best decoder for 8 pin fitted locos.

 

My fleet comprises Hornby, Bachmann and Heljan diesel locos all withe central mounted motors and therefore quiet a high current draw. 

 

I have tried the Zimo M600R in Bachman and Heljan locos and it works well but the lack of a simple Function crib sheet is putting me off them.  The Lenz standard+ is £2 cheaper than the Zimo and has much simpler instructions.

 

Which would you choose?

[Right Away]

My entire steam locomotive stud ranging from small tanks to Pacifics has run flawlessly with Lenz decoders for many years.

I should point out that I don't use "sound" or "stay alive". In my earlier forays into DCC, I tried other makes but at that time they couldn't hold a candle to the German ones. Doubtless, things have moved on quite a bit since then.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I have chosen Lenz Standard because to me DCC is a utility, and the lowest cost for the desired performance is therefore the goal. In such easy drives as these intrinsically smooth running mechanisms, there is no need for the extra 'motor taming' adjustments offered by the Zimo. (I too used the ESU based 36-553/554 when it was available cheap at circa £10, but when the price rose and the Lenz Standard appeared that finished its advantage. I never had the difficulties in speed curve limitations and address loss that some reported with these decoders, all mine were purchased pretty early in this decoder's availability which is the only factor that might be relevant.)There isn't a 21 pin Lenz standard is the shortcoming, I am quite happy hardwiring though.

 

If you have a monster to tame - like an older mechanism design -  then you may want the Zimo. I've had a small stash,  mostly MX64 and now supplemented by some MX600,  in this role, and they 'move on' as the old mechanisms get upgraded to something which the Lenz can handle.

[pauliebanger]

I would (do) choose ZIMO every time.

 

Paul

[RFS]

I have standardized on Lenz decoders having previously had Hornby, Bachmann, TCS and a couple of DCC Concepts decoders all of which were found wanting in different respects. I use automation with RR&Co and this requires decoders with accurate Back EMF across the entire speed range, and the TCS and DCC Concepts both had serious failings here. The Bachmann ones kept losing their address and the Hornby was too basic. 

 

Whilst the Lenz Standard+ is an excellent decoder I have also now a few Zimo ones (MX600R and MX634D) because

 

- there is no 6-pin or 21-pin Standard+

- the decoder is physically quite large and will not fit in some locos

- the 21-pin Silver (same basic firmware as the standard) has a problem with some Bachmann EMUs, especially 2-EPB and to a lesser extent 4-CEP, where these units generate interference from the lighting circuits on their PCBs. Hence some MX634Ds (2-EPBs) and MX600Rs (with 8/21 boards) in a couple of 4-CEPs.

 

I also managed to pick up a Lenz Decoder Programmer for a song off Ebay and have used this to keep all my Lenz decoders at current firmware level. There's updated firmware for Lenz decoders coming later this year which I will be able to take advantage of.

 

The Zimo decoder is excellent but the CVs are complex compared to the Lenz. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by RFS

[pauliebanger]

Can you give me an example of a CV which is more complex on a ZIMO than a Lenz, please?

 

One could consider ZIMO CVs to be more complex (whatever that means, each CV on all decoders consists of an identifying number and a value).

 

Or, one could applaud the huge range of CVs on offer which enables optimisation of performance in all cases. (OK, an individual might find this daunting to start with, but there's plenty of help available and at least the decoder will be up to any demands).

 

Compiling a simple crib sheet is pretty easy when you don't have much info to cover.

 

Highly customisable decoders have more detail to convey. That does not mean that all users will need to make changes to every one, simply that all possibilities need to be documented comprehensively.

 

ZIMO decoders have the progressive manual Brake Key function which many users find adds to the driving experience. (not much use to computer operated loco, though).

 

Paul

Edited March 2, 2018 by pauliebanger

[Torper]

I've standardised on Zimo, having compared it very favourably with a couple of cheaper makes when I started in DCC.  I have never regretted that decision and have found the decoders (including the new "cheap" one) to perform flawlessly with excellent loco control.  I'm not sure what people mean by Zimo CVs being more complex - I don't fiddle around much with the CVs other than 3 and 4, but if I felt so minded there are a lot of other CVs that can be used if required and that amount of choice can surely only be a good thing.  That's not to say, of course, that Lenz are not good as well - I've never tried them.

 

DT

[tender]

Can you give me an example of a CV which is more complex on a ZIMO than a Lenz, please?

 

One could consider ZIMO CVs to be more complex (whatever that means, each CV on all decoders consists of an identifying number and a value).

 

Or, one could applaud the huge range of CVs on offer which enables optimisation of performance in all cases. (OK, an individual might find this daunting to start with, but there's plenty of help available and at least the decoder will be up to any demands).

 

Compiling a simple crib sheet is pretty easy when you don't have much info to cover.

 

Highly customisable decoders have more detail to convey. That does not mean that all users will need to make changes to every one, simply that all possibilities need to be documented comprehensively.

 

ZIMO decoders have the progressive manual Brake Key function which many users find adds to the driving experience. (not much use to computer operated loco, though).

 

Paul

 

The problem i find with Zimo is the outdated english translated Manual on the website which usually runs about 3 years behind the latest decoder updates/releases. So some of the more recent CV adjustments are only available to those in the know. Doesn't stop me buying them though.

 

If anyone can point me to the latest (2018) Manual in English (if it exists) i'd be grateful.

Edited March 2, 2018 by tender

[The Fatadder]

I have standardised on the Zimo product for all my steam locos, really good decoder

 

Impressive quality of running and customisation, along with a small size

[RFS]

The problem I find with Zimo is the outdated English translated Manual on the website which usually runs about 3 years behind the latest decoder updates/releases. So some of the more recent CV adjustments are only available to those in the know. Doesn't stop me buying them though.

 

If anyone can point me to the latest (2018) Manual in English (if it exists) I'd be grateful.

 

This is the problem with Zimo - see http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/handbuch.htm

 

There are up-to-date manuals in German but the English ones are up to 2 years behind.

 

There is basically one manual covering many different models: I would find their documentation easier to use if there was one manual per decoder type, and the CV descriptions were at least in numerical order. 

[Sir TophamHatt]

I have tried the Zimo M600R in Bachman and Heljan locos and it works well but the lack of a simple Function crib sheet is putting me off them.  The Lenz standard+ is £2 cheaper than the Zimo and has much simpler instructions.

You've answered your own question

 

I try and stick to either one of these as they were recommended here.

Lenz Standard:

+ Clear comprehensive manual

- No decoder protection (sheeth?)

~ Plugged

 

Zimo MX600:

+ Small

+ Protected decoder

- Manual not great

~ No plug

 

There's probably more I could pull out, but in terms of performance, I can't notice the difference between them. Most, if not all my Lenz, I cut the plugs off to hardwire so it did seem a bit of a waste there - although I saved them in case I can convert them to blanking plugs.

 

As they're usually both around £20 each new, I usually stick to Lenz unless the loco has no space, in which case Zimo it is. There have been a couple of locos that I've used a few others and whether it's psychologically knowing they're different, or is the actual performance, but they don't run as well.

 

I should add, both types, I just wired them in and go. No tinkering with CVs really (yet).

 

Both are good - go with whatever is the cheapest, or fits.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Sir TophamHatt

[pauliebanger]

You've answered your own question

 

I try and stick to either one of these as they were recommended here.

Lenz Standard:

+ Clear comprehensive manual

- No decoder protection (sheeth?)

~ Plugged

 

Zimo MX600:

+ Small

+ Protected decoder

- Manual not great

~ No plug

 

There's probably more I could pull out, but in terms of performance, I can't notice the difference between them. Most, if not all my Lenz, I cut the plugs off to hardwire so it did seem a bit of a waste there - although I saved them in case I can convert them to blanking plugs.

 

As they're usually both around £20 each new, I usually stick to Lenz unless the loco has no space, in which case Zimo it is. There have been a couple of locos that I've used a few others and whether it's psychologically knowing they're different, or is the actual performance, but they don't run as well.

 

I should add, both types, I just wired them in and go. No tinkering with CVs really (yet).

 

Both are good - go with whatever is the cheapest, or fits.

 

ZIMO MX600 comes in three versions, all the same price. MX600, wires only, MX600R harness with an 8 pin plug (which you can cut off if you wish, or just get the MX600 in the first place), and MX600 PluX16, a no-wires plug-in version.

 

Where's the Brake Key function on Lenz decoders?

 

Paul

[RFS]

Where's the Brake Key function on Lenz decoders?

 

Paul

 

It doesn't, and it doesn't worry me as I have all the control I need from the Lenz decoder, the most important for me being the accurate Back EMF.  Zimo has this too, but some other makes are not so good. 

 

Whilst I'm happy with the performance of the Zimo they just have too many variables which is why I say they're complex, for example not only CVs #3 and #4 but also

 

#24 - acceleration trimming

#25 - deceleration trimming

#121 - exponential acceleration

#122 - exponential deceleration

#123 - adaptive acceleration and deceleration

#309 - brake key

#349 - brake time

#146 - compensation for gear backlash

 

etc. etc.

 

If you really feel the need to set all these for your locos, then that's fine. Personally I'm happy with the "basic" Lenz decoder. 

[Sir TophamHatt]

ZIMO MX600 comes in three versions, all the same price.

Hence the squiggle for both as it can be a minus if you have to cut it off, or a plus if you have DCC Ready Loco.

[Suzie]

Just because the CVs are there does not mean you have to change them! Just leave them at the default. Unlike Lenz the Zimo defaults tend to work well every time and rarely need to be changed to get good performance.

 

If you have DecoderPro or similar it should be a quite straight forward job to create a set of CVs to make the Zimo function mapping the same as the Lenz defaults rather than the Zimo defaults. I did this for a while before I standardized completely on Zimo - it will be easier now to remap the Lenz to be the same as Zimo since I have fewer Lenz now.

[pauliebanger]

It doesn't, and it doesn't worry me as I have all the control I need from the Lenz decoder, the most important for me being the accurate Back EMF.  Zimo has this too, but some other makes are not so good. 

 

Whilst I'm happy with the performance of the Zimo they just have too many variables which is why I say they're complex, for example not only CVs #3 and #4 but also

 

#24 - acceleration trimming

#25 - deceleration trimming

#121 - exponential acceleration

#122 - exponential deceleration

#123 - adaptive acceleration and deceleration

#309 - brake key

#349 - brake time

#146 - compensation for gear backlash

 

etc. etc.

 

If you really feel the need to set all these for your locos, then that's fine. Personally I'm happy with the "basic" Lenz decoder. 

 

 

None of these CVs are complex, they all consist of an ID (the CV number) and a value.

 

Not understanding what they are there for is a different matter. Asking questions here is a good way to find out.

 

If you are happy with the Lenz decoder because it does not have all the 'complications' of a ZIMO, then that's fine. Your money your choice.

 

But that's an entirely different thing than criticising ZIMO decoders for having too many options to choose from, which is what you have done.

 

ZIMO may have the facility to use any of the CVs you mention above, but there is normally no need to use them as ZIMO's default values are usually well chosen. In fact for some of the one's mentioned, ZIMO state in the manual that they are unlikely to be used very often. But, here's the difference, if you need the facility, it's there ready for you. If you don't have it available on your decoders, and need it, then you will be out of luck.

 

However,as an example gear backlash CV146, is there to compensate if you have fitted the decoder to a well used model with worn gears. Using decoders without this facility results in jerky starts, especially after a change of direction. If you would be happy with basic decdoers which don't give this  option and are happy for your models to operate in a jerky fashion as a result, that's fine.

 

It's when you start realising what the others leave out which makes ZIMO such outstanding performers across a very wide range of models.

 

CV 123 is an NMRA specified CV. It can be (i.e. optionally if you want to) used to temporarilly change inertia and momentum to improve running locos in consist.

 

Most of the above in most of my ZIMO decoders is at the default value set by ZIMO.

 

Then there are added value features like the manual brake key for a more life-like driving experience. How many locos don't have a brake control? Turning off the power is not the same thing at all.

 

Difiicult to set up? Rubbish.

 

CV309, Brake Key. The value here is the number of the F key you wish to use to control the brake function. The clue is in the name, really.

CV349, Brake time. To stop in a short time set low values.

 

I do always set CV309 and CV349 in all my decoders, coupled with a high value in CV4 which allows realistically long 'coasting' which can be controlled with the brakes for precise stopping distances. And because I do, i've become familiar with the settings to use. (OK, I did design this feature for ZIMO so I am a bit biased on this point).

 

So, if you are happy to pay the same price and get less for your money, go ahead.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

Edited March 3, 2018 by pauliebanger

[Torper]

If you really feel the need to set all these for your locos, then that's fine. Personally I'm happy with the "basic" Lenz decoder. 

 

For goodness sake, I use Zimo decoders and I've never touched any of the CVs you've mentioned (although in view of what Paul says I'm tempted to give Nos. 309 and 349 a try).  Basically, however, I usually set CV29 to 34, set CVs 3 and 4 to whatever I want them at the time, and otherwise leave well alone in the knowledge that the Zimo defaults will give excellent performance.

 

DT

[D1056WesternSultan]

Thank you all for your comments,suggestions and advice.  It looks as though there is very little to choose between the Zimo M600R and Lenz basic+ decoders and that it will come down to my choice. 

 

This begs the question then that is there really any need to standardise on a particular make or type of decoder but rather select a decoder to suit a particular loco.  I have to say that I have been delighted with the performance of both the Zimo M600R and teh Lenz Silver+21pin decoders so far fitted.

[Sir TophamHatt]

^ and this is why price is (really) the only factor I consider between them.

Unless I am specifically looking for a very small decoder.

 

The Zimo is smaller but slightly thicker I think, where as the Lenz is bigger but thinner. (might be wrong on that though.)

[Butler Henderson]

Lenz Standard+ is 25mm x 15.4mm x 3.5mm (source Coastal DCC)

Zimo MX600 is 25mm x 11mm x 2mm (source Digitrains)

 

Have always used the Lenz Standard where possible as it can usually be found relatively cheap for a decoder of its quality.

[Suzie]

The MX600 is a PluX-12 decoder so designed to fit in the designated space allocated for PluX-12, one of the nice features of the PluX decoder family is that decoders have a defined maximum size so regardless of manufacturer they will all fit. The versions with wires on just have the wires fitted in place of the PluX plug.

[NIK]

Hi Suzie,

 

I think you are referring to the Zimo MX600P12.

There is also the MX600 (wires but no plug) and the MX600R (wire harness and 8 pin plug).

 

At present I pick my decoders to suit my locos - so size, current capacity, motor control, socket, functions, stay alive, advanced consisting, consist function control, DCC uncouplers, servos, smoke generation features may come into play.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[peterfgf]

I've found the Lenz Stnadard v2 10231-02 very good, especially for its price.  It has coped well with whole range of my models from old-fashioned Mainline Ringfield type motors to later can motors.  It is my default standard where I can fit one.

 

I've recently tried Zimo and found then to be very good as well and consider them equal to the Lenz.  Trying to set up CV 124 (page 23 of the manual) to emulate the Lenz F3 and F4 for shunting and inertia took a little bit of perseverance but I got there in the end. 

 

Bachmann decoders were rebadged ESUs, and I have used their LokPilot Standard 53614 as a 21-pin plug-in decoder but i didn't like it as much as the Lenz decoders.

 

Peterfgf

[pauliebanger]

Hi Suzie,

 

I think you are referring to the Zimo MX600P12.

There is also the MX600 (wires but no plug) and the MX600R (wire harness and 8 pin plug).

 

At present I pick my decoders to suit my locos - so size, current capacity, motor control, socket, functions, stay alive, advanced consisting, consist function control, DCC uncouplers, servos, smoke generation features may come into play.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

Nick,

 

Susie was saying that the board layout for the MX600 was designed around the PluX12 format, which is correct. Only by having the output pads/pins in the correct position can a fixed format interface like PluX be fitted to a decoder, whereas wires can be attached in any order.

 

If you use ESU decoders with other brands in consists, you will have difficulties with CV3 and CV4, since ESU use a different, non-NMRA Standard, multiplier, resulting in much reduced acceleration and deceleration effects.

 

Not sure what you mean by the CV124 reference. You can set CV3 and CV4 on a ZIMO in exactly the same way as you would on a Lenz. If you are refering to Lenz CV58* then  ZIMO does additionally (and optionally) offer more variations using CVs 124,155 and 156 in regards to shunting mode (On an F Key) than does Lenz, so de facto, there are more settings to consider.

 

ZIMO's Shunt Mode can include be reduced speed only, which equates exactly to the Lenz facility in CV58 (half normal speed when the assigned F key is engaged), or reduced acceleration and deceleration (selected from a range of possible options) or both. The result, if deployed, is smoother and more easily controlled shunting movements, the benefits of which are available instantly on an F key - no need to reprogramme CVs each time a shunting move is required.

 

As an example, I set CV124 = 3, this results in no inertia or momentum when the assigned F key is active. I assign (map) the half speed F key (the exact equivalent of the Lenz shunt speed, CV58) using CV155 and the 'no momentum' effects F key using CV156. Though either of these effects can be mapped to any F key, I usually assign the same F key to operate both speed and momentum reduction simultaneously, for convenience. 

 

*From Lenz Silver manual

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[pauliebanger]

 

....although in view of what Paul says I'm tempted to give Nos. 309 and 349 a try...

 

 

DT

 

For best results, set CV4 at 100 or above. This will allow long coasting duration(heavy train).

 

CV309 = X where X is a free F key (in preference set at 'momentary' operation for optimal brake application/release operation).

CV349 = 6.

 

To operate, when train is moving, reduce throttle (partly or to zero) the presss the F key assigned in CV309. As long as the key is engaged, the brake effect will progressively intensify. Releasing the Brake Key, even after a short 'dab' will reset the brake force at the start figure ready for the next application. As a real driver would do, you can now control the rate of deceleration by applying, releasing and re-applying the brake key. Or  leave the brake key engaged for a 'controlled emergency stop'.

 

Good luck; once you have experienced the control a Brake Function key will give you, you'll wonder why all decoders don't have this feature. LOL.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

Edited March 6, 2018 by pauliebanger