How do Overseas Designs Reach the UK?

[FPH 603]

Hi all,

 

I'm planning to possibly introduce an overseas design (with appropriate modifications, of course) to my BR NER/ER layout, however I am unsure of how and why a design can be found in an overseas railway influences a UK rail operator enough to either build a similar/or identical design for their own railway. Does anyone know how or why this may happen?

 

Thanks to all that contribute.

[brack]

Sometimes articles in engineering journals may spread ideas, sometimes personnel who had formerly worked abroad, and sometimes railways sent staff abroad on fact finding visits to investigate good practice and see if they could adopt some things. Looking at just one figure, Vincent Raven is known to have visited the US, India and new Zealand and reported back what he found in presentations to the IMechE.

[DCB]

Generally because a private loco building firm like North British Loco co or Beyer Peacock  building something for abroad which UK railway officials are shown while shopping for new locos or a builder to cobble together their own monstrosities..  Jones Goods had clear overseas influence as did most Churchward/ Collett/Stanier/Riddles GW/LMS/BR steam designs not to mention the Gresley Pacifics based on American Pacific locos.

The GNR and Midland acquired US 2-6-0 locos in around 1899 but didn't know how to use mixed traffic locos, the MSWJR acquired 2-6-0 tender locos with 4ft wheels which they made good use of on very heavy freights, and there were some US outside cyl 0-8-2Ts used in south wales.Garratts with 2 X ROD 2-8-0 chassis were very nearly built by the GC / LNER instead of the Gresley 6cyl monster

 

If a pre grouping pre 1923 company wanted a loco to a certain spec and there was a suitable loco type in production for overseas which would be suitable or adaptable for the UK there would be a powerful argument for acquiring such a loco. 

Caley McIntosh design 0-6-0 and 4-4-0 were built for Belgium and more Highland Castes were built for France than UK.

The usual problem is loading gauge, especially across the cylinders, the US K1 pacifics which Gresley admired were too wide for the UK, and he had to use three cylinders on his, height can often be trimmed but width is more tricky,   I would look at drawings of foreign locos and see what can be slimmed down to UK size, 

[cctransuk]

Hi all,

 

I'm planning to possibly introduce an overseas design (with appropriate modifications, of course) to my BR NER/ER layout, however I am unsure of how and why a design can be found in an overseas railway influences a UK rail operator enough to either build a similar/or identical design for their own railway. Does anyone know how or why this may happen?

 

Thanks to all that contribute.

 

You have complained elsewhere that you do not get sufficient / quick enough answers to your questions. Have you considered that the problem may lie with the questions that you ask?

 

Can you, perhaps, point to an example where "an overseas railway influences a UK rail operator enough to either build a similar/or identical design for their own railway"? No? I would struggle too!

 

Perhaps the adoption by an Australian railway of a version of the British HST, renamed XPT? This would be one of very few instances where this kind of thing has happened, to the best of my knowledge.

 

Railway design is driven by local circumstances, and the chances of identical conditions arising in two diverse countries is very low.

 

I questioned once before why you seemed to be driven to apply Australian designs to British railway conditions. It hasn't happened in real life and it won't happen - for such a plethora of reasons that it is unreasonable to expect members of this forum to explain them to you.

 

My advice is to research on the internet the factors that produced Australian railway designs in Australia, and British designs in Britain. You will then perhaps understand why trying to translate one technology onto another simply will not work, and is destined to be a pointless exercise.

 

The fault, I'm afraid, lies not with the forum, but with the ill-thought-out questions that you are asking.

 

Best wishes,

John Isherwood.

[kevinlms]

Hi all,

 

I'm planning to possibly introduce an overseas design (with appropriate modifications, of course) to my BR NER/ER layout, however I am unsure of how and why a design can be found in an overseas railway influences a UK rail operator enough to either build a similar/or identical design for their own railway. Does anyone know how or why this may happen?

 

Thanks to all that contribute.

Here's an early example of an American loco imported into the UK.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-2-0#/media/File:England_loco_Birmingham_%26_Glos%27ter_Railway.jpg

 

The design came about because no British manufacturer would supply locos, due to the operational challenges of the Lickey Incline.

 

However, they proved troublesome.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_and_Gloucester_Railway#First_locomotives

[Nearholmer]

The number of cases where influence led to direct copying was very small.

 

The amount of “technology transfer” in a more indirect sense has been huge, and, as pointed out above, in the steam age there were also a very few direct imports to GB, which then notably were not directly copied.

 

One of the very few cases of direct copying of a steam loco is the GWR DeGlehn Atlantic, which was copied from a Nord design, and was also an import, having been built by a French maker. The motivation in that case was to compare, contrast, and learn.

 

Oddly enough, the NER did have some direct copies, in the form of the Bo-Bo electrics, which were to a standard American design, which was also supplied to France and, IIRC, Italy. There the motivation was effective American salesmanship, almost certainly undercutting longer-established British makers on price, to get an ‘in’ on the market for a newly established subsidiary factory in Britain.

 

Mr Isherwood maybe blunt, but he does have a point, if that isn’t a contradiction. Your questions do tend to be very inspecific, so bordering on the impossible to answer.

 

Kevin

Edited March 13, 2018 by Nearholmer

[FPH 603]

I don't mind the constructive criticism but I do mind extreme negativity. Thanks for the help.

[TravisM]

It's a thought provoking question but I think it's a question of "what will fit" and also is it practical and cost effective.  The two, maybe three main examples that come to mind are the USATC S160's and 0-6-0T's steam loco's that were built for use in the UK during the Second World War.  They used a modified USRA design which was reduced to fit the UK loading gauge and because the need was so urgent, they fitted the practical and cost effective model. Also the US production lines could churn them out faster than the UK could.

 

In modern times, EMD came up with the Class 59 for Foster Yeoman as a direct replacement for the poor availablity of the Class 56 which was working their trains.  Originally Foster Yeoman wanted six Class 59's but EMD convinced them that four was all they needed as the internals were based on the highly successful SD40-2.  Again the criteria met the practical and cost effective model and so successful were they, that Foster Yeoman went back for another one when traffic rose, ARC and N Power also ordered four, one then five respectively.  This of course led to the highly successful Class 66 which are effectively SD60's and later SD70's (later Tier 3 Emissions) in Class 59 style car bodies, SD60's for the Class 67's but with a complete body redesign but similar body profile.

 

Sorry if this is long winded.

[HillsideDepot]

The Western Region's hydraulics are well known for their German influences, including visually in the case of the D800 Warships.

 

And some say that the new class 800 (Hitachi's InterCity Express) is based on the Japanese Bullet train. To be honest I'm not sure how much that is PR spin and how much is fact, but I'm sure that there are influences, and of course the bodies are built in Japan and shipped to North East England or Italy for fitting out.

 

With CAF building and Seimens planning a factory in the UK the influence of overseas designs will no doubt grow, although our smaller loading gauge will always hamper direct application of ideas; as Swindon found out all those years ago - look at the step up over the transmission to get into the cab of a D800.

 

But back in the early BR era the general opinion on Britain's railways (and industry as a whole) was that we led the world, and therefore were exporters, not importers of ideas. Indeed, even something from another Region of BR would often be viewed with deep suspicion.

 

In later BR years the class 58 was designed with export in mind, the BR/Leyland railbuses were demonstrated far and wide, and BREL built the "International" train. In the event none sold (save for perhaps a few International coaches), although 158s were exported. Roll on a few years from there, and as others have said above, the tide was very definitely inward with not only class 66s, which were built aboard, but also the output of Thrall's York works which was heavily influenced by US designs already well known to their principle customer.  

[cctransuk]

I don't mind the constructive criticism but I do mind extreme negativity. Thanks for the help.

 

You really do have to accept some responsibility for a perceived lack of enthusiasm to respond to your questions - when the  group manager agrees with my post, you should give the matter some serious thought.

 

If you wish to work in a parallel universe where Australian rolling stock designs were transplanted into the UK, that is your privilege - but asking members to help justify your fictitious premise is never going to capture the imagination of many readers.

 

How much do you know about British railways and the conditions under which they developed?

 

What stage of development existed in the UK when Australia started building railways?

 

What mistakes had been made, and which lessons had been learned during the early development of railways in the UK, that could be incorporated into the later Australian railways?

 

It was those starting-point differences that produced the loading gauges and track gauges that were adopted in Australia, and which make it impossible to meaningfully translate Australian railway design into the UK.

 

Call it extreme negativity if you must; I view it as a thoughtful analysis of the facts.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[EddieK]

A very brief answer to the original question - via the Channel Tunnel.

 

In my past life I worked for TransPennine Express who operated a fleet of 51 Class 185 DMUs, a German design built in Germany and delivered under the Channel. 

 

More recently, TPE took a fleet of 10 Class 350 EMUs into stock - again delivered under the Channel. 

 

I presume the large fleets of Siemens-built units on South West Trains, London Midland and ScotRail all came the same way.

 

On the Virgin's Railway, the Voyager fleet were built in Europe, and the first 53 Pendo-leanies are an Italian train assembled in Birmingham.

 

Perhaps the answer to the original question is: Destroy most of the rail vehicle manufacturing capability in the UK....

[Covkid]

Surely at the end of the day we are talking "rule 1" if this thread relates to model railways ?

 

It is not really relevant to try and use real life happenings to provide a suggestion of justification on a model railway, which I what I believe the OP is seeking. But it is fun to provide the "imaginary" justification if that is your pleasure. I happen to like the Alco RSC2 as a loco to the extent that I bought one. I changed my mind about building an American shunting plank then thought of maybe "Englifying" it by fitting it with side buffers and coupling shackles and finishing it as a heavy duty industrial shunter. My explanation was that Alco shipped the loco across the Atlantic to promote some European orders, and it was sold off after the sales tour.

 

Plausible ? you decide, but it is my railway world and I apply rule 1.

 

I do agree with John Isherwood that the OP is indirectly seeking the unattainable.

[Covkid]

A very brief answer to the original question - via the Channel Tunnel.

 

In my past life I worked for TransPennine Express who operated a fleet of 51 Class 185 DMUs, a German design built in Germany and delivered under the Channel. 

 

More recently, TPE took a fleet of 10 Class 350 EMUs into stock - again delivered under the Channel. 

 

I presume the large fleets of Siemens-built units on South West Trains, London Midland and ScotRail all came the same way.

 

On the Virgin's Railway, the Voyager fleet were built in Europe, and the first 53 Pendo-leanies are an Italian train assembled in Birmingham.

 

Perhaps the answer to the original question is: Destroy most of the rail vehicle manufacturing capability in the UK....

 

Indeed. And the follow on order for more Pendolinos and pairs of augment cars came through the tunnel. As have all the Siemens trains - 360s, 700s and 707s. Probably also the 450s and 444s although I am not so sure.

[HonestTom]

A lot of the early Underground electric trains were American-influenced, largely because so many of the lines were controlled by the American Charles Tyson Yerkes, who had extensive experience of public transportation in America. Electric trains in Britain were then a relatively untried concept, so it made sense for him to go with what he knew worked. If you compare the early Metropolitan and District Underground trains with, say, the New York elevated railways of the period, they could almost be the same company.

[melmerby]

A very brief answer to the original question - via the Channel Tunnel.

 

In my past life I worked for TransPennine Express who operated a fleet of 51 Class 185 DMUs, a German design built in Germany and delivered under the Channel. 

 

More recently, TPE took a fleet of 10 Class 350 EMUs into stock - again delivered under the Channel. 

 

I presume the large fleets of Siemens-built units on South West Trains, London Midland and ScotRail all came the same way.

 

On the Virgin's Railway, the Voyager fleet were built in Europe, and the first 53 Pendo-leanies are an Italian train assembled in Birmingham.

 

Perhaps the answer to the original question is: Destroy most of the rail vehicle manufacturing capability in the UK....

None of these designs run in their origin country

They are designs built to a UK specific requirement but made abroad.

If the factories were in the UK they would be built here.

 

Surely the nearest thing to a foreign design train working in the UK is the latest Eurostar stock?

 

Keith

[Oldddudders]

I have often wondered about the extent to which the idea for the Southern Region Electro-Diesel locos, Class 73 in TOPS parlance, was influenced by the 60 FL9 locos, of comparable general specification, bought by the New Haven Railroad between 1956 and 1960.

 

I am sorry the OP finds the RMweb membership is not fully up to the task of answering his questions, but must concur with those who find a number of such questions are simply outwith my ability to help. Not a few, indeed, are probably better directed to a specialist society, where the knowledge-base is much narrower but potentially deeper. This would particularly apply to those about specific DEMU classes, I suggest.

[Nearholmer]

The ED concept goes back at least as far as the 1890s in the US, although it was what might be called EP at that stage, and LT had an ED+battery cWW2 I think.

[Mark Saunders]

Surely at the end of the day we are talking "rule 1" if this thread relates to model railways ?

 

It is not really relevant to try and use real life happenings to provide a suggestion of justification on a model railway, which I what I believe the OP is seeking. But it is fun to provide the "imaginary" justification if that is your pleasure. I happen to like the Alco RSC2 as a loco to the extent that I bought one. I changed my mind about building an American shunting plank then thought of maybe "Englifying" it by fitting it with side buffers and coupling shackles and finishing it as a heavy duty industrial shunter. My explanation was that Alco shipped the loco across the Atlantic to promote some European orders, and it was sold off after the sales tour.

 

Plausible ? you decide, but it is my railway world and I apply rule 1.

 

I do agree with John Isherwood that the OP is indirectly seeking the unattainable.

 

There were the five Alco S1 type that the Steel Company of Wales had at Port Talbot!

[GordonC]

Was there not some Norwegian diesel shunters brought over for use at Lackenby steelworks? Presumably too large to leave the site

[Mark Saunders]

Was there not some Norwegian diesel shunters brought over for use at Lackenby steelworks? Presumably too large to leave the site

 

They are now at Scunthorpe being on hire from GB to British Steel!

[DY444]

None of these designs run in their origin country

They are designs built to a UK specific requirement but made abroad.

If the factories were in the UK they would be built here.

 

Surely the nearest thing to a foreign design train working in the UK is the latest Eurostar stock?

 

Keith

 

That's not entirely true.  Modern trains are built on a standard "platform", that is to say the underlying technology, design and many systems of the train "family" are standard across markets.  So the Siemens Desiro design can be found in Europe as well as the UK.  They don't look like 350s, 450s, 444s etc but the underlying systems are the same.  Similarly you'll find Pendolinos and Coradias in the UK and in Europe.

 

In many ways it's analogous to what happens in the motor industry.. Eg the VW Golf "platform" used in many guises across the VW, Audi, Seat and Skoda ranges.

[hmrspaul]

A lot of the early Underground electric trains were American-influenced, largely because so many of the lines were controlled by the American Charles Tyson Yerkes, who had extensive experience of public transportation in America. Electric trains in Britain were then a relatively untried concept, so it made sense for him to go with what he knew worked. If you compare the early Metropolitan and District Underground trains with, say, the New York elevated railways of the period, they could almost be the same company.

And the Liverpool overhead railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Overhead_Railway

 

And the NERly had electric railways, both Suburban and the strange little railway that went down to the docks that was foreseen as how they would electrify between Newcastle and York. https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/es1.php https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/ee1.php

 

The magazine Backtrack frequently has articles discussing many different developments of railway motive power, some successful, many unsuccessful, that illustrate the considerable interconnectiveness of railway engineering from early days until, as others on here have illustrated adequately, now. What is more impressive with Britains railways is how resistant it was to some ideas that were normal overseas such as automatic couplings that also coupled pipes etc. [even BR had several experimentally fitted wagons that never got anywhere -it has taken American ownership to really progress

 

Paul

Edited March 14, 2018 by hmrspaul

[Allegheny1600]

The class 68 and 88 are "UKlight" versions of the "Eurolight" loco family that is gaining ground in the European market, the larger versions have, I believe, been built for both standard gauge and broad gauge lines but you certainly could not fit a Spanish Eurolight onto a British railway by any stretch of the imagination!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

The Midland Railway had some American 2-6-0s, as well as the better-known Pullman carriages.

[Pacific231G]

It's a thought provoking question but I think it's a question of "what will fit" and also is it practical and cost effective. The two, maybe three main examples that come to mind are the USATC S160's and 0-6-0T's steam loco's that were built for use in the UK during the Second World War. They used a modified USRA design which was reduced to fit the UK loading gauge and because the need was so urgent, they fitted the practical and cost effective model. Also the US production lines could churn them out faster than the UK could.

 

The USATC locos weren't built for use in the UK but were stored here in preparation for the invasion of Europe. Building them to the smallest loading gauge they would encounter obviously made sense and they would in any case have had to be moved on Britain's railways. In practice 400 of the 800 S160s consolidations that came to Britain were lent to Britain's railways officially for "running in" but really to provide extra freight capacity during the run-up to the invasion. After D Day though they were collected back and followed the armies across the channel. AFAIK only one S160 remained in Britain and that was at the Army's Longmoor Military Railway, possibly for type training. The 382 0-6-0T S100s were also brought to Britain and stored for use after D-Day but the GWR and possibly other railways did operate them before the invasion (for "running in"?) and they strongly influence the GWR's design for the 1500 Class of Pannier Tanks.

 

After the war these locomotives were surplus to military needs and became available to Europe's railways but, none were acquired by Britain's main line railways though several have since returned for preservation. The Southern Railway did acquire 15 S100s for use at Southampton Docks and others were bought by the NCB and various industrial railways. I don't know whether these had returned from Europe or simply never made it there.

 

The S100s seem to have been better regarded than the S160s by a number of railways. SNCF, with a desparate shortage of motive power after wartime losses, acquired 121 S160s but, though they were given the class designation 140U, they don't seem to have stayed long enough to carry their SNCF numbers and were quickly passed on to other countries by 1949 when the North American built 141R Mikados became available. SNCF did though buy 77 S100s and, as class 030TU, some of these survived until 1970, mostly as works locos in MPDs, so almost until the end of French steam.

 

Another USATC class the S200 Mikado was suppled to Britain under lend-lease in 1941-42 but for use in the Middle East where most of them ended up on the railways of Turkey and Iran and I don't know if these even touched British shores.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Pacific231G