woodenhead Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 One could claim you are as closed as you believe we are when it comes to opinions on railways. Just because we have an interest does not mean we don't accept the reality of life, not every railway line was ever needed - duplicate routes occurred not necessarily because of need but because of the fierce rivalry between companies. Woodhead had a primary purpose - the transport of coal from Yorkshire to Lancashire to fuel the industrial revolution, carrying passengers was a side benefit. When it came to electrification it was to move the coal more efficiently, the passenger side was a test of electric services which might have borne fruit had 1500 dc not quickly been overtaken by events. When it came time to prune passenger services and with the loss of the GC routes through Nottingham to London the Woodhead route never had a chance, local politics also had a hand and that was that. By 1981 the equipment was becoming life expired and with a new Conservative government asking for more trimming and who was to say not some fore knowledge of what was to come in 1984 the line was closed and it's remaining traffic diverted. With limited resources in today's climate, why should we believe the line which is almost removed from the landscape, with little raison d'etre and no growing villages/conurbations between the principal cities to serve would be re-laid. I love reading about the line, I enjoy walking and cycling it, I have an interest in railways but I make no apology for applying a sense of realism, it's not 1955 anymore. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan76 Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Quote: Instead of loooking at why it closed, why not look at reasons why it should be opened again? Well, there have been at least three serious proposals to re-open it down the years: 1) as part of the Liverpool-Lille Berne gauge freight line; 2) Arriva's proposal for an expanded TPEx franchise (as detailed above) and 3) as a 'rollendestrasse' (I think that's the spelling!) trans-Alpine style rolling road for carrying HGVs through the Peak Park from Broadbottom (interchange with M60) to Tinsley (interchange with M1). Lorry drivers would use the downtime to take their legally-required breaks and fuel saved would help to outweigh the charge for rail transport. None of the three have come to anything. No-one regrets that more than I do, but it feels to me like a commentary on the economic worth of the line today. As noted above, it was built for mineral traffic (the original proposal, interestingly, was to haul limestone east. Hauling coal west only came along later) that no longer exists. It might, just might, have a future as a route for intermodal traffic. The most recent study says there will be a need for another Pennine crossing by 2030. But whether trying to re-instate the Woodhead Line and re-open the New Tunnel would be the most economic way of doing it is far from certain. I'll repeat. No-one regrets this more than I do. I grew up with the line. I rode on many of its locomotives. I don't need any lessons on liking railways. But this is the way it is. Alan 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I'd love to see it re-opened. I'd love lots of things to happen that are not likely to happen, at least in my lifetime. I don't want to enter the realm of politics here, but we have to be realistic about the kind of country this is and the kind of future people have indicated (through their votes) that they want. No harm in campaigning, but I don't see much chance in of the sea change in attitudes that would be necessary to bring about such a drastic change in policy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sutton Junction Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Quite a few very interesting old photos on here. I especially like the ones of Guide Bridge, Dinting and Hadfield. Its good to see how they once were 20 or so years ago. Personally id like the Woodhead line to stay closed as I dont see any real reasons to reopen it. Also I much prefer it as a place to take the dog or go for a run then a place that I can travel to Sheffield on. Its a beautiful place that a railway would spoil. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinminman Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Hello all, I've been a long time lurker, and I thought you might all enjoy the below photographs. I can't take credit for them (apart from scanning the slides and negs). They were all taken by my father. The first six he confirms were taken on Feb 1st 1975 at Sheffield Victoria. He won't say how he gained access to the station... The second batch were taken at Penistone on a rail tour during the summer of 1974. Hope you enjoy them! 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted March 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 16, 2012 They are great. The ones of Victoria are very atmospheric. I well remember how deserted it felt as I went through it on the DMU from Huddersfield in 1971 before the reversal into Midland. there's something slightly eerie about closed stations that trains still run through and those photos capture that well. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodheadClass76Green Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 First of, I'm new here and second: Why did they get rid of this iconic and unique railway, i mean why. It had lots of life still left in it for the years to come, but killed off too soon. If they reopened the route, 1.) it wouldn't be the same as the original. 2.) It would have the ugly Class 70 freight making things worse. And finally, when i see pics of the disused lines, but with the gantries (if they are), why couldn't they leave the track and overhead wires in place, but just replace with the 25 Kv AC wires to save lots of money, instead taking the entire route up from the track beds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 When petrol is £2+ / litre, which will be sooner than many think, then perhaps Woodhead and many other railways may be re-opened. Or then again, when petrol is £2+ / litre, which will be sooner than many think, this country will come to a complete grinding halt. Brit15 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodheadClass76Green Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Hi, could someone on here add some pics of the route (not the stations), as I'm interested in the iconic woodhead line, as i wasn't around when the woodhead line was in the good ol' days. As I would be much appreciated of the pics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bri.s Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 if your intrested in the woodhead line there are a good few books with good pictures in them (SCENES FROM THE PAST 29 THE WOODHEAD ROUTE,PART 1,2,3) Alan whitehouse has done a couple of good books on the subject. if you go on flicr photo website theres hundreds of pictures and on youtube you type in woodhead route you can get videos of cab rides, theres loads more out there but thats just of top of my head if you wanted track plans of the places on the woodhead route theres a website called lymobservatory or johns web pages. hope this helps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodheadClass76Green Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 if your intrested in the woodhead line there are a good few books with good pictures in them (SCENES FROM THE PAST 29 THE WOODHEAD ROUTE,PART 1,2,3) Alan whitehouse has done a couple of good books on the subject. if you go on flicr photo website theres hundreds of pictures and on youtube you type in woodhead route you can get videos of cab rides, theres loads more out there but thats just of top of my head if you wanted track plans of the places on the woodhead route theres a website called lymobservatory or johns web pages. hope this helps Could you give me a link to the second website option, and thanks anyway for the recommendation of the different kind of woodhead books avaliable Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Its: http://www.flickr.com/ and search on Woodhead route Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 30, 2012 Why did they get rid of this iconic and unique railway, i mean why. It had lots of life still left in it for the years to come, but killed off too soon. The road lobby wanted to use the trackbed as part of turning the M67 into the Manchester to Sheffield motorway, with the tunnel used for one carriageway. During bad weather they hoped to use it with a contraflow as an all weather route. That won't happen now as Tesco Gorton was built across the alledged route. The incomplete flyover ramp is in situ at Denton, and the start of the junction towards Woodhead is still visible approaching Hattersley island Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Some interesting views here not least the Strategic Reserve being located in the tunnel: http://pathetic.org.uk/unbuilt/m67_manchester_to_sheffield_motorway/ They must have moved them all from Box Tunnel between 1981 and 1986 before lifting the rails There would be no Manchester end extension now to the M67 because things have changed so much since the 60s when all this was conceived. New ring roads in Manchester, building across the original alignment of the motorway and the change in the industrial landscape. If a motorway with a massive viaduct to get over the top was a non starter on cost and environmental grounds makes you wonder why they never did something less impacting and drove a dual carriageway along the Woodhead railway alignment with single lanes in the tunnel itself. Is the route actually protected though no-one will say it or maybe the National Park like it as it is? Another road would just encourage more traffic so the current route and it's restrictions actually manages the amount of traffic and keeps the environment as they want it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) The 'flyover' at Denton Island was surely only to allow traffic from it to go straight from the M67 to the A57 and on into Manchester. It surely couldn't be any worse than what happens now. Tameside Council still hope to have the extension from Hattersley built a far as IIRC Mottram Road. To me ,anyway, the extension would just move the traffic jams to a different location. What needs to happen is that aweight limit needs to be put on the A628, and/or the signage on the M60 altered to keep Sheffield - bound traffic on that Motorway. Then there's the A6 extension, of course; meant to join the M60 at Bredbury...... Edited March 31, 2012 by 62613 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2012 Denton flyover would help a lot, as there are frequent queues due to the lights all round the island. A couple of years ago they added a set on the clockwise entrance slip. I think they were only used once, and it gridlocked the whole of the east side of Manchester within about 15 minutes. I was stuck between Hattersley and Hyde trying to get to the M60, gave up and came back at the next turn. Problems at Hattersley are about to be compounded by the new giant Tesco store being built on an already overloaded junction. Trying to get a weight limit on the A628 is like trying to ........... (suggestions please, can't think of one that won't get blocked). The Highways Agency say that as it is a trunk road they can't do it. If anyone can give concrete evidence of a permanent weight limit on a trunk road please let us know. At least now they are going to put snow gates up at Woodhead and Flouch to stop the idiots trying to go over there when the Police have put the cones and signs out at each end.Lorries often get blown over when warnings are being put out about the conditions. I used to live near the A628 and watched HGV drivers move the cones so they could carry on, even on an occasion when the road was blocked by a fatal accident. We tried to get the signage changed on various roads in the area about 12 years ago and eventually gave up, as again the HA don't want to know or don't care. The only success was with the police. By lobbying them, blockages on the A57 and A628 now usually appear on the message signs on the M60. The problem as ever is that this needs cross-border communication. Regarding Bredbury, I had a copy of the AtoZ when my son was at Salford Uni about 20 years ago showing the proposed A6, another case of not holding your breath. Hope I haven't already turned this into a rant, I think I've deleted most of the politics, but I could easily go on ............ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debs. Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Among railway buffs there is a persistent rumour that a "Strategic Reserve" has been kept in the form of a number of fully operational steam locomotives, ready for use in case of national emergency if/when political problems in the Middle East or elsewhere cut off the nation's supply of oil.Presumably in such an event, some of the currently-disused coalmines would also be brought back into use, to get these kettles (as we call them) moving again. Woodhead Tunnel is prime suspect for the location of the Strategic Reserve. Some interesting views here not least the Strategic Reserve being located in the tunnel: they must have moved them all from Box Tunnel between 1981 and 1986 before lifting the rails Knowing how terminally-inept politicians are.......I`d imagine any Strategic Reserve would likely as not, all be broad gauge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2012 Knowing how terminally-inept politicians are.......I`d imagine any Strategic Reserve would likely as not, all be broad gauge. In fact BR managed to make a total hash of it without any help from the politicos - so much of a has that it was cancelled before it had really got underway. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2012 Some interesting views here not least the Strategic Reserve being located in the tunnel: http://pathetic.org....field_motorway/ They must have moved them all from Box Tunnel between 1981 and 1986 before lifting the rails I always thought it was in an army depot by Longtown on the Waverley route. There were plenty of old munitions tunnels around there, and there had to be some reason why we kept that stub of line when the Weaver - Glasgow electrification was done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 More misinformation - they are actually in Midland Road and York Road Tunnels under Kings Cross - nothing will delay the Flying Scotsman not even a nuclear strike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) More misinformation - they are actually in Midland Road and York Road Tunnels under Kings Cross - nothing will delay the Flying Scotsman not even a nuclear strike. Didn't find them round Midland Road when we did Thameslink, didn't venture into York Road. Edited March 31, 2012 by TheSignalEngineer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Denton flyover would help a lot, as there are frequent queues due to the lights all round the island. A couple of years ago they added a set on the clockwise entrance slip. I think they were only used once, and it gridlocked the whole of the east side of Manchester within about 15 minutes. I was stuck between Hattersley and Hyde trying to get to the M60, gave up and came back at the next turn. Problems at Hattersley are about to be compounded by the new giant Tesco store being built on an already overloaded junction. That must have been some queue! I've seen plenty of queues back to J3 from the Hattersley roundabout, particularly on a Friday afternoon, but I think the worst I've ever had the other way is almost back to Kingston (J2). It used to be I could set off from my house for work at 7.15, and stand a reasonable chance of missing the queues; Now I'd have to leave at 7.00 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted April 2, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 2, 2012 That must have been some queue! I've seen plenty of queues back to J3 from the Hattersley roundabout, particularly on a Friday afternoon, but I think the worst I've ever had the other way is almost back to Kingston (J2). The worst eastbound queue I got caught in was back to the Manchester side of J3 when the M62 was blocked by an accident on the Friday of a Bank Holiday weekend. Westbound on the A628 I think it was when there was a combination of accidents and it was taking up to 7 hours to get from The Flouch to Hattersley. Fortunately I was off that day and out walking. A lorry driver I spoke to near Crowden told me he had been stop-start for 2 hours. I saw him again 2 hours later and 4 miles on down the road. It used to be I could set off from my house for work at 7.15, and stand a reasonable chance of missing the queues; Now I'd have to leave at 7.00 When I first had a place in Longdendale (when the M60 finished at Denton) I used to leave at 6.55 to get the 7.25 train from Stockport. Getting back in the evening was about the same journey time to get home about 6.40pm and no jams. By the time I moved out the morning train had gone to 7.34 but I had to leave at 6.45 to make sure of catching it, and you could still find an eastbound jam at 7.30pm on some days Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan76 Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 A bit off topic, but regarding the posts about the atate of the A628, you might be interested to know that when the Highways Agency published its plans for the now shelved Hollingworth-Mottram-Tintwistle bypass, they actually included traffic lights that were intended to deliberately cause delay, to dissaude more people from trying to use the road. The theory is that, when the bypass was finished it would shorten journey times. So more people would want to drive over Woodhead. You put them off by holding them at a red light that's not there to regulate traffic, just to hold you up so you carry on using your old route instead of congesting the A628 even more than it is today. Sounds mad, but that's where we are.... Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJL Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Some fantastic shots, thanks for putting them on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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