The Woodhead Route

[charliepetty]

Pretty sure I read somewhere recently that the NRM are looking into dusting off the 71 and fitting TPWS to it for a return to the main line. Which is where it belongs.

 

Anyway, you could run Electra & 76020 off 750v DC with a bit of re-wiring, and an ex-emu vehicle fitted with shoegear, and DC jumpers between the two. DC jumpers are used between vehicles on several emu's, although admittedly they are semi-permanently coupled.

 

Could even run off 25kv AC given an ac electric to step down & rectify the ac, then jumpers as before. That's been done before-83009 was used at Longsight for several years to provide 1500v DC for testing class 506's. Imagine that-an EM2 at Euston! Or at the blocks on P1 at Piccadilly!

 

It surprises me that the 306 wasn't run to Hadfield once or twice, looks like that will not happen now it's on some farm in Essex.

 

A Railtour was tried by Ilford/EM2 Locomotive Society on the Weekend of Longsite Openday some years back, the problems why it was cancelled early was pathing problems on the WCML, these being due to Toilet Stops on route! A 306 has no toilets!!!

The plan was a single trip to Manchester, running the Hadfield Branch all weekend then a single trip back, alas it never happened. Shame really, but BR (LMR) stopped it not us.

[MrD]

The Rother-Don Rambler crossing the Wicker Arch by the remains of Sheffield Victoria station, 29 Jan 11 (a couple of hours ago).

Appropriately enough for a visit to a steelworks, the loco was in Tata livery.

 

 

I wish I'd seen that - I haven't seen a train of any description crossing the Wicker in about 10 years

[Rotherwood EM1]

 

I wish I'd seen that - I haven't seen a train of any description crossing the Wicker in about 10 years

 

I work at Woodburn Junction Signalbox and if you want to see anything going over wicker arches we have 6J57 from Rotherham to Deepcar run Mondays to Fridays at around 18:15/18:30 and it returns (as 6J58) between 20:00 & 21:00 usually with a 66 on the front but sometimes a 60 can be seen on it. Also the railhead treatment train is due to start running again soon which is usually top and tailed with a pair of 66's but this year we are promised that a pair of 20's will be used (20189 in green & 20142 in blue... both which have been used for driver road learning for the past few weeks)

[Guest oldlugger]

A very interesting but sad thread. As so many others have said... what a waste; how shortsighted and so utterly stupid to close a main line linking two important cities. I did see one double headed class 76 coal train from a distance on this line, probably the year it closed. Why couldn't it have been moth balled or something else intelligent like this? Europe is building railways whilst the UK puts the boot in to its dwindling network. At least some are trying to get the Woodhead part of it reopened which would be terrific. This is a great scheme worth joining (apologies if someone else has posted this link):-

 

http://savethewoodhe...l.blogspot.com/

 

Hopefully with the introduction of the Olivia's Trains class 76 we might see more interest in the above.

 

Cheers

Simon

Edited December 1, 2011 by oldlugger

[Guest oldlugger]

http://www.forgottenrelics.co.uk/tunnels/woodhead.html

[woodenhead]

The actual line serves nothing in terms of population, I don't see it happening, it will be cheaper to add to the existing route than re-build something that didn't go to Sheffield Midland which means new chords not to mention renovating the old tunnels so that the National Grid can put the cabling back there and out of the 1954 tunnel.

 

Maybe it shouldn't have closed but re-opening just because some of the trains between Manchester and Sheffield get full is not a good enough reason. Once Standedge gets wired reopening will become even more remote.

[Guest oldlugger]

The actual line serves nothing in terms of population, I don't see it happening, it will be cheaper to add to the existing route than re-build something that didn't go to Sheffield Midland which means new chords not to mention renovating the old tunnels so that the National Grid can put the cabling back there and out of the 1954 tunnel.

 

Maybe it shouldn't have closed but re-opening just because some of the trains between Manchester and Sheffield get full is not a good enough reason. Once Standedge gets wired reopening will become even more remote.

 

Maybe so, but many new lines in France pass through areas of scant population over much greater distances. I presume the Woodhead route was opened primarily to link Manchester and Sheffield and provide a trunk route through the Pennines from London Marylebone? So why not reconnect these three cities using a tried and trusted route? In the UK the road is king and always will be and while that dullard mentality exists... the railways in Britain are ultimately doomed. As a steam railway or even more exciting, a reinstated tourist electric line with the original overhead system installed, and a class 76 or two, this would most likely make a packet for its owners. But that needs imagination and some bold entrepreneurs. They said the Channel tunnel would never be completed...

Edited December 1, 2011 by oldlugger

[woodenhead]

Opening to St Marylebone would also be a non starter - too slow and duplicating other routes and not even thinking about the Great Central Railways a lot of the route will have been lost - they are wiping it off the map in Leicester.

 

There was a plan to use bits of the GC route including Woodhead for a freight line from Europe to Liverpool but it never got off the ground, probably too early to have caught the new railway optimism, suffering the high access charges to the Chunnel and too much pressure from NIMBYs/road lobbyists/road freight companies to get any support.

 

High Speed 2 will put paid to any more routes into London from the North and it would not be able to compete with ECML, MML or WCML services and it would need to take custom off all three to have any chance.

 

When the WCML was being rebuilt for the Pendolinos there was a service between Manchester Piccadilly and St Pancras, it was a slow pondering service, unless it was built as a high speed line any new line taking the old GC route out of Sheffield to London would be similar and not popular.

[coachmann]

When folk say such and such a line should be reopened, it would be nice if it were millions of prospective passengers who would use it and make it pay, not enthusiast who want to photograph the trains.

[woodenhead]

What's Sheffield got that Manchester hasn't - apart from a lot of model shops

 

Re-opening Woodhead for a marginal time saving so the people of Manchester can visit Meadowhall, yep I can buy that as it means less cars to the Trafford Centre and more parking spaces for me.

Edited December 2, 2011 by woodenhead

[The Stationmaster]

Its not about whether a few trains between Sheffield and Manchester get a bit full - Its more the fact that the Hope Valley line is woefully slow for connecting two of the countries major cities.

Ther would be no need for any intermediate stops to make the Woodhead work........just a faster service to allow the people of Manchester to visit Sheffield

Quite agree Mickey. The Hope Valley route was an absolute shambles of a journey when it first took on the role of the principal route between the two cities and was the cause of many a suggestion that 'the Midland did it that way on purpose so they could shut Woodhead'. And of course you don't need intermediate stations outside the conurbations at each end because the whole idea is to reduce the end-to-end journey times. Thus Woodhead as always struck me as the far more logical route with the added advantage that its biggest structure was 'nearly new' and there was plenty of metalwork there from which to hang shiny new 25kv catenary if the old stuff was as life expired as was claimed.

 

The big disadvantage - from a railway viewpoint - was that in 'greater network' terms it (probably) ran to the wrong station in Sheffield and it was in any case one that would be rather pushed for expansion so some expensive digging would be required at that end. At the other end it ran straight into the ideal terminus, or one 'half' of it at any rate.

 

So, as was not uncommon in the great era of retrenchment and saving money as cheaply (hopefully) as possible the wrong (in my view) strategic decision was made and we were lumbered with the Hope Valley route with its much older (and, back then, frequently failing) signalling and none too comfortable ride on an ancient dmu. I've travelled both routes (only once on each) and I definitely know which I preferred.

[Edwin_m]

Don't forget that half the Manchester-Sheffield trains continue to Doncaster and Cleethorpes, which could only be done from Woodhead by going round the back and missing Meadowhall. The Norwich trains could take the Beighton Junction route with little loss of time, but to Nottingham would be split between the two stations and journeys such as Manchester-Barnsley would be much more difficult.

 

However as a regular traveller between Manchester and Sheffield I have to say that Stockport gets a lot of custom on these trains, and there is no comparable intermediate call on the Woodhead route. The Hazel Grove chord allowed the Stockport stop and also accelerated the Hope Valley trains significantly by avoiding the slow route through New Mills.

[leopardml2341]

What's Sheffield got that Manchester hasn't - apart from a lot of model shops

 

Well for a start, Sheffield's on t' reet side o' t' Pennines......................

 

Retrieving coat and preparing to leave

[Guest oldlugger]

When folk say such and such a line should be reopened, it would be nice if it were millions of prospective passengers who would use it and make it pay, not enthusiast who want to photograph the trains.

 

All the UK trains I've been on in recent years have been packed to the rafters with standing room only. Rail travel seems more popular than it ever was twenty or so years ago. In France rail travel is extremely popular. If you make the railway an attractive alternative to the car or bus people will use it. Saying things like the above just encourages a continuance of negativity towards rail travel and railways in general. And anyway, if enthusiasts pay to use the line, why not?? I take it that you're not a railway enthusiast?

 

As rail enthusiasts I feel it is only natural to support any rail venture, however obscure it might seem. The line was built for a reason (coal and coke being of high importance) and therefore was needed at the time. Just because the coal and coke traffic dwindled didn't justify total closure; the line could still be used for diverted trains or to free up some of the over used lines in the north. As the Woodhead route was part of the proposed Europe wide high speed network, someone somewhere could see the benefit of the route. I would say, more lines equals greater productivity and efficiency allowing more passengers and freight to access areas that have clogged up slow roads (because the railways were closed in the first place). I can just imagine in fifty years time that the UK will have one railway from London to Glasgow and a network of huge roads throttling the living daylights out of the remaining clear spaces.

Edited December 2, 2011 by oldlugger

[coachmann]

Oldlugger said :

I take it that you're not a railway enthusiast?

I take it you are a newbie and have never bought Rail, Rail Express, Railway Magazine, Traction, etc etc etc...

[woodenhead]

Woodhead was built as a general carrier to link to growing cities with totally appaling road links......some things never change

I can agree with that, at least before 1981 if you were crawling behind a lorry you might see a train go by.

 

But in the dark with rain it can only be likened to that scene in Planes, Trains and Automobiles where he falls asleep and the two HGVs are coming towards them and they go though the middle.

[Poggy1165]

As I recall the original intention was to close Hope Valley and keep Woodhead and Chinley-Matlock. There was however a determined campaign to save Hope Valley, not least from Manchester ramblers, and when the decision was taken to retain it I think BR figured out they could lose the other two lines in its place.

 

As a route from Manchester to Sheffield Hope Valley is and always has been inferior. But, much as I should love to see Woodhead reinstated, I think the chance of it happening is roughly the same as my hitting two Euromillions jackpots in succession and then being acclaimed as supreme ruler of the EU - that is to say zilch, zero, nada.

 

We are in the presence of a very severe economic crisis, and providing a marginally better train service between Manchester and Sheffield is probably so low a priority that it doesn't even register. In Watkin's memorable phrase they prefer to 'plaster their existing lines'. Now, if I were in charge, HS2 would be making maximum use of the old GC trackbed, and we could take it on from there - but I ain't, and it's probably, on balance, a good thing.

[TheSignalEngineer]

As I recall the original intention was to close Hope Valley and keep Woodhead and Chinley-Matlock. There was however a determined campaign to save Hope Valley, not least from Manchester ramblers, .....

 

And certain influential people in the NT etc lived in the Castleton / Hope area.

 

But, much as I should love to see Woodhead reinstated, I think the chance of it happening is roughly the same as my hitting two Euromillions jackpots in succession and then being acclaimed as supreme ruler of the EU - that is to say zilch, zero, nada.

 

If you won two consecutive Euromillions jackpots you could probably buy the EU.

[TheSignalEngineer]

But in the dark with rain it can only be likened to that scene in Planes, Trains and Automobiles where he falls asleep and the two HGVs are coming towards them and they go though the middle.

 

Should be OK tonight, the Police have closed it to high-sided vehicles because they are brassed off at getting frozen to death when stupid drivers get blown off the road having driven a lorry up there in a Force 10.

[Alan76]

About 10 years ago Arriva planned to re-open the Woodhead Route as part of their bid for the Trans-Pennine Express franchise. It would have carried four trains an hour - using Class 180 Adelante or similar stock - and would have taken 35 minutes for the Manchester-Sheffield journey with a stop at either Guide Bridge Parkway (!) or Penistone, which would have been just 13 minutes away from Sheffield. A new station would have been built somewhere near the site of Victoria. It never happened of course because the Strategic Rail Authority had run out of money. It went instead for a scaled down TPEx - the one we have today - and let a 'no growth' franchise for the rest of the North of England because there were no funds to do anything else. I used to think that Woodhead would re-open. I no longer think so, certainly not in my lifetime. And if it did, there are no longer any guarantees that the Woodhead New Tunnel could be re-used. It would not meet current safety regulations and it is a moot point whether, after so many years out of use, it would enjoy any 'grandfather rights'.

[charliepetty]

Woodhead closed because it could be closed! The only PTE support it had was Penistone & Hadfield/Glossop, so the closure did not effect the cash imput from the PTE's, Hope Valley had PTE support for Dore & Totley, All Derbyshire Stations and GMPTE support for all Manchester area stations, so if it closed cash would be lost. The PTE support helped make the freight trains cheaper too!

[caradoc]

Woodhead closed because the lifeblood of any railway, its traffic, had already vanished, or was about to vanish. What coal traffic (for which the route was electrified) was left ran direct from mine to power station, for which the Woodhead route was inefficient and expensive; Passenger traffic has for forty years now been handled by the Hope Valley, without needing a second, isolated, station in Sheffield. I would love to be able to go once again down to Wath, Penistone or Guide Bridge and watch the 76s pass by, but the world has moved on.

[coachmann]

Against a backdrop of steam, Woodhead died when the wires went up. By the 1970s the electrics had come to look nostalgic and more interesting against a backdrop of diesels. But that of course is a linesiders viewpoint and not an economists. If the line had remained open, I wonder what we could have expected today in place of the EM1's. An AC line?

[Guest oldlugger]

The world has "moved on" and given us so much gunge that we really could do without; mobile 'phones for one. Prior to the arrival of this nauseating object, what did people do? Queue up all day outside telephone boxes to make that "urgent" call (...at full volume so all can hear: "hello Gaz, it's me! I'm on the train and we're just arriving at the station. I can just see you through the train window. Byeeeee! See you in a minute!)? Get away with you! It's what's called creating an artificial need developed by powerful organisations that tell you that you need it, or conversely that you don't. Most are slaves to this rubbish and everything else those in power make you believe.

 

Whatever the postulations in the above postings claim, we are all supposed to be thinking "environment" these days and protecting future generations, yet here I see postings from what appear to be railway dissenters and "politicians". The railway, and more precisely, the electric railway, is as green as they come. Just ask the SBB and SNCF. Instead of loooking at why it closed, why not look at reasons why it should be opened again? Be daring; be different; be very 21st Century and reinstate something that could reduce petrol and diesel pollution from the UK's already clogged up roads, and free up Britain's measly and knackered railway system. Not only applicable to Woodhead but many other unnecessarily closed lines. Predictably I'll get slated after posting this (that's usual) but aren't we supposed to love railways here... really? Frankly, I don't think so judging by some of the comments above. You can argue until you're blue in the face about economics; pragmatism; the efficiency of those hideous looking class 70s (reminiscent of some diabolical booze/drug induced nightmare), blah, blah, but if they can reopen lines in Europe (with nice looking locos, by the way) for all manner of reasons then so can we here... if there is enough support and well thought out intelligent argument.

 

Simon

[caradoc]

Oldlugger, I'm with you on mobile phones, I love railways (despite having worked on them for 33 years and counting), and I loved the Woodhead route. However us enthusiasts are a tiny minority and our influence on Government policy is precisely zilch. Despite that, we ARE re-opening lines, particularly in Scotland where I live, and hopefully HS1 will soon be followed by HS2 ( and 3, 4 etc), BUT any railway has to justify its existence by providing a service that passengers and freight customers will use.