Preservation efforts thwarted

[LMS2968]

Many places opposed the preservation of their local line at the time, and many have come to be grateful that their efforts failed. They later found that the tourist income isn't confined to just the railway.

[great central]

I’m sure I’ve heard a story about LMS Pacific ‘City of Nottingham’ almost being preserved - either the city council tried to buy her, or were offered her and turned down the opportunity. I’m sure someone else knows.

I was given to understand that all the various cities with locos named after them were offered the complete loco on withdrawal. The only one to take the option up was Birmingham, whether that was due to other costs involved or not having anywhere to put the whole loco I've no idea but Nottingham finished up with just the nameplates which were on display in the erstwhile industrial museum at Wollaton Hall. No idea where they are now but knowing Nottingham city council they've most likely sold them if they thought they could get a few quid.

[The Johnster]

It was one of the things he inherited from Churchward and brought from the GWR which rarely get a mention. It was that railway which cut up Lord of the Isles, etc. It was the LNER which preserved City of Truro!

 

Given the 100mph issue between CoT and FS, this was very sporting of them and I admire it from the bottom of my Great Western liveried heart.

 

The LNER, not the wealthiest of railways, had a very modern attitude to preservation, befitting the inheritors of Wylam, Hetton, Middleton and the Stockton and Darlington.  They were the first in the railway museum game and proud of their constituents' heritage, with the NER and GNR both well represented.  The other 3 did nowhere near as well, to their shame.

 

This was also the dawning of the age of the replica, with Lion and North Star appearing, the LMS and GWR making small amends and paving the way for Tornado, Unknown Warrior, Night Owl &c.

 

This was still the age of Ahrons, and appreciation of physical beauty in old locomotives, and it is this that 'informed' much of the preservation that was undertaken; good looking locos in elaborate and attractive liveries.  

[62613]

Wasn't there an NBR atlantic slated for preservation pre-war, but somehow slipped through the net?

[coachmann]

 Par for the course. That well known old swindonian Bill Stan.i.er chopped up 80% of what the Midland had set aside for preservation, on his arrival at Derby. The Midland 'Spinner'  was saved, but the Kirtley 2-4-0 and 0-6-0, Johnson 0-4-4T and NLR 4-4-0T were all chopped.

The Spinner was a folly designed around the steam sander. Apart from this, none of the engines had any real claim to fame. IMV, the saddest scrapping of all concerned the sole remaining members of three big LNWR classes in 1949. Their prodigious hauling power was some way above that acknowledged by the shifty LMS, which proceeded to cripple them by removing a main bearing, yet it still took the emergency building of 7P 'Scots' to replace them on the busy West Coast route when reality sank in that Midland Compounds on short trains were a daft idea.

Edited April 5, 2018 by coachmann

[newbryford]

Don't worry - all these "cut up" locos are stored away in a bricked up tunnel somewhere.......................

 

Mick

[dibber25]

Given the 100mph issue between CoT and FS, this was very sporting of them and I admire it from the bottom of my Great Western liveried heart.

 

The LNER, not the wealthiest of railways, had a very modern attitude to preservation, befitting the inheritors of Wylam, Hetton, Middleton and the Stockton and Darlington.  They were the first in the railway museum game and proud of their constituents' heritage, with the NER and GNR both well represented.  The other 3 did nowhere near as well, to their shame.

 

This was also the dawning of the age of the replica, with Lion and North Star appearing, the LMS and GWR making small amends and paving the way for Tornado, Unknown Warrior, Night Owl &c.

 

This was still the age of Ahrons, and appreciation of physical beauty in old locomotives, and it is this that 'informed' much of the preservation that was undertaken; good looking locos in elaborate and attractive liveries.  

 

On the Southern, it wasn't for the want of trying. (CJL)

[jonny777]

Don't worry - all these "cut up" locos are stored away in a bricked up tunnel somewhere.......................

 

Mick

 

 

 

Yes, of course. 

 

That is the reason the GW electrification has been cut short to Thingley Junction. The DfT have suddenly realised that if they put electricity through Box Tunnel, the S*r*t*g*c R*s*r*e would not be reclaimable without shorting out the entire network. 

 

[Steamport Southport]

Given the 100mph issue between CoT and FS, this was very sporting of them and I admire it from the bottom of my Great Western liveried heart.

 

The LNER, not the wealthiest of railways, had a very modern attitude to preservation, befitting the inheritors of Wylam, Hetton, Middleton and the Stockton and Darlington.  They were the first in the railway museum game and proud of their constituents' heritage, with the NER and GNR both well represented.  The other 3 did nowhere near as well, to their shame.

 

This was also the dawning of the age of the replica, with Lion and North Star appearing, the LMS and GWR making small amends and paving the way for Tornado, Unknown Warrior, Night Owl &c.

 

This was still the age of Ahrons, and appreciation of physical beauty in old locomotives, and it is this that 'informed' much of the preservation that was undertaken; good looking locos in elaborate and attractive liveries.  

 

Lion a replica?

 

It's an original locomotive that was used as a pump in the Princes Dock.

 

http://www.lionlocomotive.co.uk/Rescue.html

 

 

 

Jason

[woodenhead]

Given the 100mph issue between CoT and FS, this was very sporting of them and I admire it from the bottom of my Great Western liveried heart.

 

The LNER, not the wealthiest of railways, had a very modern attitude to preservation, befitting the inheritors of Wylam, Hetton, Middleton and the Stockton and Darlington.  They were the first in the railway museum game and proud of their constituents' heritage, with the NER and GNR both well represented.  The other 3 did nowhere near as well, to their shame.

 

This was also the dawning of the age of the replica, with Lion and North Star appearing, the LMS and GWR making small amends and paving the way for Tornado, Unknown Warrior, Night Owl &c.

 

This was still the age of Ahrons, and appreciation of physical beauty in old locomotives, and it is this that 'informed' much of the preservation that was undertaken; good looking locos in elaborate and attractive liveries.  

Could it be simply that the LNER recognised the marketing value of a museum along it's length to draw in passengers to it's trains.

[DOCJACOB]

In answer to 62613 the NBR Atlantic was 9875 Midlothian and was for preservation until A Hitler invaded Poland the need for steel changed plans.

 

It is also fair to say the is unique because when the initial order for preservation came down to Cowlairs she was in quite a few bits. They managed to cobble her back together and she lasted about another 6-9 months before being scrapped again.

 

Thus she's unique as scrapped twice?

 

SRPS have an NBR Atlantic tender found in Cambridge area about 5 years ago (modified in 1940's) after being lost while in use as a fuel oil store at possibly Whitemoor yard for the early diesel 0-6-0 shunters.

[Compound2632]

The Spinner was a folly designed around the steam sander. Apart from this, none of the engines had any real claim to fame. IMV, the saddest scrapping of all concerned the sole remaining members of three big LNWR classes in 1949. Their prodigious hauling power was some way above that acknowledged by the shifty LMS, which proceeded to cripple them by removing a main bearing, yet it still took the emergency building of 7P 'Scots' to replace them on the busy West Coast route when reality sank in that Midland Compounds on short trains were a daft idea.

 

Dearie me...

[298]

And of course there's the late-lamented D818 Glory. Cut at Swindon Sept 1986. (Edit-1985?)

RIP.

It was by all accounts, knackered. Probably not as far gone as a Barry wreck or one of the Hymeks, but you've got to remember that there was a certain degree of politics involved around Swindon at this time and there wasn't the appetite for mass Diesel preservation back then.

 

D601 was also supposed to be preserved, but as an empty shell to house a model railway as again there was insufficient interest for it to leave Barry for full restoration.

[Supaned]

I was given to understand that all the various cities with locos named after them were offered the complete loco on withdrawal. The only one to take the option up was Birmingham, whether that was due to other costs involved or not having anywhere to put the whole loco I've no idea but Nottingham finished up with just the nameplates which were on display in the erstwhile industrial museum at Wollaton Hall. No idea where they are now but knowing Nottingham city council they've most likely sold them if they thought they could get a few quid

 

 

I heard a similar story , with added detail that the intention was to plinth the locos at the appropriate stations - I worked at Coventry and the dimensions of the booking hall would certainly fit that criteria. As it happened , the only bits of 46240 City of Coventry to survive were the nameplates and crests which are mounted on the footbridge above platforms 2 & 3.

[TerryD1471]

The Spinner was a folly designed around the steam sander. Apart from this, none of the engines had any real claim to fame. IMV, the saddest scrapping of all concerned the sole remaining members of three big LNWR classes in 1949. Their prodigious hauling power was some way above that acknowledged by the shifty LMS, which proceeded to cripple them by removing a main bearing, yet it still took the emergency building of 7P 'Scots' to replace them on the busy West Coast route when reality sank in that Midland Compounds on short trains were a daft idea.

I quite agree, Larry, firstly with your comments about the LNWR locos hobbled by removing their centre bearings (and hence their integrity) but also about the scrapping of the last three LNWR locos in 1949. It might still have been a bit early for the preservation movement, but a big boilered Claughton, a Prince and a Precursor (it was Sirocco, wasn't it) would have been the stuff of dreams. It looks like W Stanier's iconoclastic views hung around quite a while after he had left railway service. (Even so, I still love his locos)

 

Going back to my original point, Clevedon Court was, I read, bought by the owner of the real house, but couldn't be taken onto the property because of poor access, so was sent back to Swindon for cutting.

 

Referring to Huntriss's book of photos of LMS pacifics, it refers to 46250 being the subject of a fund raiser to preserve it, but simply says the "scheme came to naught."

 

As regards the other correspondence, especially on 46243, I am grateful for everyone's comments; very illuminating!

Edited April 5, 2018 by TerryD1471

[IWCR]

"Ryde"  and  the  other  Southern  retained  locomotives  held  in  the  Eastleigh  paintshop  were  stored  for  possible  preservation,  there  had  been  talk  of  a  museum  but  no  firm  plans.

As  stated  the  war  lead  directly  to  their  scrapping,  the  primary  need  was  to  clear  the  space  for  war  work,  the  scrap  metal  was  a  secondary  consideration,  indeed  some  other  locos  outside  on  the  scrap  road  were  still  there  in  1946.

 

Pete

[Steamport Southport]

It was by all accounts, knackered. Probably not as far gone as a Barry wreck or one of the Hymeks, but you've got to remember that there was a certain degree of politics involved around Swindon at this time and there wasn't the appetite for mass Diesel preservation back then.

 

D601 was also supposed to be preserved, but as an empty shell to house a model railway as again there was insufficient interest for it to leave Barry for full restoration.

 

Wasn't it a bunch of disgruntled union members peed off at BR who scrapped it out of spite?

 

It had already had a cosmetic restoration by apprentices in the early 1980s and was due to be officially preserved as a centrepiece in the GWR 150 celebrations.

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

I quite agree, Larry, firstly with your comments about the LNWR locos hobbled by removing their centre bearings (and hence their integrity) but also about the scrapping of the last three LNWR locos in 1949. It might still have been a bit early for the preservation movement, but a big boilered Claughton, a Prince and a Precursor (it was Sirocco, wasn't it) would have been the stuff of dreams. 

 

I'm far from disagreeing that it would be wonderful to have preserved examples of these classes. But I wonder if anyone who has read Ted Talbot's article Centre bearings, weak frames and all that in Backtrack Vol. 27 No. 1 (January 2013) could precis the conclusions as to what the decision making process was for removal of the centre bearings? I gather the work was started in 1923, very early in LMS days, so responsibility is as likely to lie with Crewe or Horwich as Derby. But I'd like to know the facts of the matter!

[Bernard Lamb]

Given that my initial post was limited to two sentences; one of which was from memory of seeing adverts in railway magazines for many months in the late 60s, and the other from a paragraph on Wikipedia, I hardly think it warrants the description of "nonsense", whether it pleases you or not. 

 

Are you suggesting that I am a liar; and I did not see any adverts appealing for money back in those far off days? 

 

May I also suggest that if you want to put old stories to sleep, and given your intimate knowledge of the subject; the least you could do is make sure the Wikipedia page is correct. 

 

Quote: "The line to Millerhill junction remained open to serve the marshalling yard and diesel depot at Millerhill, as well as to give access to the freight-only Edinburgh South Suburban lines.^[145][146] Just a few hours after the last train, British Rail symbolically lifted a section of track at Riddings Junction in the presence of reporters and photographers.^[147]

An attempt to reopen part of the line by the Border Union Railway Company, a private concern in which Tomorrow's World presenter Bob Symes was involved, failed due to lack of finance.^[148] British Rail had been asking for between £745,000 and £960,000 for the freehold of the line, £125,000 annually for running powers into Edinburgh and Carlisle, £85,000 for works in Carlisle, £10,000 towards their administrative costs and £495,000 for the value of the permanent way materials.^[149] A deposit of £250,000 had to be paid by 1 December 1969.^[150]

Tracklifting was complete by late 1972.^[151] Negotiations for the sale of parts of the railway solum had already begun, despite a request by Lord Melgund for it to be safeguarded."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waverley_Route

 

FFS

I  was just trying to inform you of the actual history.

You could at least acknowledge your out of date information and say thank you.

My thanks to those who did acknowledge my correction to your post in the spirit in which it was written.

Your attitude does contrast with them and also with that of David Steele who when sent this information replied "I wish I had known that 40 years ago".

As for the on line source you quote. Believe that at your peril.

There are those on this forum who try to help and those that try to obstruct.

I leave it to the readers to decide who is in which camp.

Bernard

[brack]

Par for the course. That well known old swindonian Bill Stan.i.er chopped up 80% of what the Midland had set aside for preservation, on his arrival at Derby. The Midland 'Spinner' was saved, but the Kirtley 2-4-0 and 0-6-0, Johnson 0-4-4T and NLR 4-4-0T were all chopped.

Fortunately the derby contingent were able to ensure that their 19th century loco axle boxes survived by building thousands of rubbish locos fitted with them. Even Mr Stanier and his successors couldn't get rid of them all.

 

The LNER establishing York was due to the NER, they'd been aware of their status as successor to the S&D and had been keeping bits and pieces for about 30-40 years before the centenary celebrations in 1925. Very far sighted, although to be honest there's an awful lot of locos I'd have preserved before aerolite.

[Ian Kirk]

Wasn't there an NBR atlantic slated for preservation pre-war, but somehow slipped through the net?

Hi,

The NB Atlantic Midlothian was indeed set aside for preservation. It was briefly put back on the main line again in 1938/9 but was withdrawn again and fell victim to the WW2 scrap drive.

In the 60s The SRPS had two locos set aside the Caley 0-4-4T and a NBR 0-6-2T (N15)the price was set at £650 each. Two rival groups were formed within the Society to raise funds and I was involved (as a teenager) with the NB group. Eventually BR issued an ultimatum. There was funds for one not two and as the Caley group had more money the 0-4-4T was saved and the N15 was scrapped. The remainder of the NB fund eventually went towards the purchase of Maude. So if things had gone the other way Hornby might now be announcing an N15 0-6-2T

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[bike2steam]

.... not to mention 'Drummond's Bug' and the 330 class saddle tank which were also stored in the Eastleigh paint shop with "Ryde" ........................ and if we're talking about railways as well as locos/rolling stock, there's the Westerham Branch, of course ...... and Ashburton ....... ( better not mention Rowsley to Buxton !!?! ) ......................

 

The 'saloon' section of the 'Drummond Bug' still exists in a private collection.

[Compound2632]

Fortunately the derby contingent were able to ensure that their 19th century loco axle boxes survived by building thousands of rubbish locos fitted with them. Even Mr Stanier and his successors couldn't get rid of them all.

 

The repetition of this nonsense reflects no credit on the poster and does not advance the discussion at hand. Please offer reasoned arguments based on a reading of the published literature.

[locoholic]

FFS

I  was just trying to inform you of the actual history.

You could at least acknowledge your out of date information and say thank you.

My thanks to those who did acknowledge my correction to your post in the spirit in which it was written.

Your attitude does contrast with them and also with that of David Steele who when sent this information replied "I wish I had known that 40 years ago".

As for the on line source you quote. Believe that at your peril.

There are those on this forum who try to help and those that try to obstruct.

I leave it to the readers to decide who is in which camp.

Bernard

Bernard, you haven't actually said what the "true" story was. Instead of being crabby, how about enlightening us - or are you simply trying to drum up sales of that book?

[Davexoc]

Wasn't it a bunch of disgruntled union members peed off at BR who scrapped it out of spite?

 

It had already had a cosmetic restoration by apprentices in the early 1980s and was due to be officially preserved as a centrepiece in the GWR 150 celebrations.

Alongside the weighbridge in 1980

 

 

Dave