Tornado fails on ECML

[Pandora]

Bullied's efforts to develop steam technology are why I find him such a fascinating individual. There is an air of futility about much of his work (the classic steam locomotive was technologically obsolete by his time as CME) and he was far too good an engineer to be under any illusions with respect to the inherent limitations of steam in terms of efficiency (and he showed himself to be quite capable of working with diesel and electric traction) yet for all that he clearly saw a future for it. Whilst his designs were often deeply flawed I find his originality of thought (he often ploughed a lonely furrow) and willingness to innovate admirable. The classic steam locomotive had already been taken pretty much as far as it could go by the late 1930's and most steam engineers were basically just playing for marginal gains with a mature technology, Bullied was one of the very few who thought beyond what he inherited. In some ways he probably was nearer to engineers at Alco and Baldwin than his British contemporaries IMO as those two companies also displayed a willingness to re-invent the steam engine and innovate and genuinely believed that it would remain relevant for the long term (Alco and Baldwin executives were confidently predicting all sorts of wondrous new steam advances and assuring the world of the limitations of diesel engines up to a decade before steam died in North America, a phenomenally rapid transition). In hindsight (and to be honest it wasn't just hindsight) Bullied's efforts were futile but no less interesting and courageous for that. Of course the irony is he worked for the railway which did more than any of the other big four to electrify its operations.

A historian I knew had met with a direct  descendent of Bulleid and the conversation turned towards an event in Bulleid's life, following the loss of a son, Bulleid went his own way, the Pacifics were e far more powerful than  required and the original  submission  for the Leader   very very different to the Leader  he constructed

[rockershovel]

Re various above...

 

1) I daresay historic diesels are an attraction in the USA, given the much earlier onset of diesel traction. There can’t be many Americans still living, who ever rode behind a revenue earning steam locomotive

 

2) experience at Nene Valley certainly suggests that people expect a steam locomotive!

 

3) IIRC, Alco became a highly successful pioneer of diesel traction, while Baldwin rapidly dwindled and disappeared because they never got to grips with the new technology. I’m unclear what Bulleid might have been expected to achieve by studying their last years of steam?

[sp1]

I can't agree with that. Lots more people will be interested in seeing or riding behind a steam train, though with the possible exception of Flying Scotsman most aren't too bothered which one. The very fact that main line steam workings operate shows that, as it would be far less cost and hassle to operate them with diesel power. Maybe this will change with time to some extent - diesels from the 1950s seem to be popular attractions in the States so it's possible in a decade or two our 1960s diesels will have a wider following than the existing fraternity.

Several acquaintances of mine, with absolutely no railway interest, expressed an interest in riding behind FS - just after it had returned to steam, and was on TV a lot, including news of it visiting the SVR: would they have done that for any other loco - I think not.... Edited April 24, 2018 by sp1

[Pacific231G]

I can't agree with that.  Lots more people will be interested in seeing or riding behind a steam train, though with the possible exception of Flying Scotsman most aren't too bothered which one.  The very fact that main line steam workings operate shows that, as it would be far less cost and hassle to operate them with diesel power.  Maybe this will change with time to some extent - diesels from the 1950s seem to be popular attractions in the States so it's possible in a decade or two our 1960s diesels will have a wider following than the existing fraternity.

I think steam locos will always have a greater public appeal and believe that there are two aspects to their attraction. The obvious one is nostalgia for the traditional railways some of us still remember and the rest know from films and TV; that also includes coaches with compartments, proper restaurant cars, mechanical signalling and lots of lovely shunting. Even more important though may be the inherent drama of a steam loco itself. As Miles Kington once put it, steam locos really are a bunch of ham actors. With all that steam, smoke and noise accompanying large chunks of steel thrashing about, they make a real performance out of doing what diesel, and even more electric, locos just get on with, and far more efficiently.

 

It's probably a bit like sailing ships. There must be very few people in the developed world who can still remember a time when sailing ships were widely used in commerce. That doesn't stop them from being incredibly attractive, as the huge crowds, including me, at the Tall Ships Festival in London this time last year demonstrated. So, just like tall ships, we may well still be needing to build new steam locos a long time into the future.

 

I've often also wondered if it's possible, in Britain at least, that more children's first experience of travelling on a train is behind a steam loco on a heritage railway than on a scheduled train on the national network? 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Pacific231G

[kevinlms]

Several acquaintances of mine, with absolutely no railway interest, expressed an interest in riding behind FS - just after it had returned to steam, and was on TV a lot, including news of it visiting the SVR: would they have done that for any other loco - I think not....

That suggests its a waste of time, money and effort in restoring any other loco, surely not? The owners of other steam locomotives must be devastated to know that their efforts have been in vain.

[Jol Wilkinson]

We increasingly life in a "celebrity" culture and FS fulfils that role for the general public, owing the to media attention it has had over the years.

 

The restoration and new build projects are largely driven by enthusiast with an interest in that particular locomotive or class. Will many people turn out especially to see another NER /LNER G5 in steam, or a V2, a Grange, a LNWR George or any of the other new builds in the same way they would for the Flying Scotsman?

[AndyID]

I think steam locos- if they're available- will always have a greater public appeal and believe that there are two aspects to their attraction. The obvious one is nostalgia for the traditional railways some of us still remember and the rest know from films and TV; that also includes coaches with compartments, proper restaurant cars, mechanical signalling and lots of lovely shunting. Even more important though may be the inherent drama of a steam loco itself. As Miles Kington once put it, steam locos really are a bunch of ham actors. With all that steam, smoke and noise accompanying large chunks of steel thrashing about, they make a real performance out of doing what diesel, and even more electric, locos just get on with far more efficiently.

 

It's probably a bit like sailing ships. There must be very few people still around in the developed world who can remember a time when sailing ships were widely used in commerce. That doesn't stop them from being incredibly attractive, as the huge crowds, including me, at the Tall Ships Festival in London this time last year demonstrated. So, just like tall ships, we may well still be needing to build new steam locos a long time into the future.

 

I've often also wondered if it's possible, in Britain at least, that more children's first experience of travelling on a train is behind a steam loco on a heritage railway than on a scheduled train on the national network?

 

I wonder if people would pay to ride behind a fake steam locomotive? It would have to be a really good simulation of course, not unlike some of the excellent models people make. The train would actually be propelled by a diesel locomotive lurking somewhere in the consist.

[Mallard60022]

I wonder if people would pay to ride behind a fake steam locomotive? It would have to be a really good simulation of course, not unlike some of the excellent models people make. The train would actually be propelled by a diesel locomotive lurking somewhere in the consist.

Ah that's why Tornado 'failed'. The diesel tender konked out. There, the secret is out at last. Now I will have to be locked up.

P

[Dava]

I wonder if people would pay to ride behind a fake steam locomotive? It would have to be a really good simulation of course, not unlike some of the excellent models people make. The train would actually be propelled by a diesel locomotive lurking somewhere in the consist.

Try the North Bay Railway, Scarborough, running diesel hydraulic LNER Pacifics since 1931!

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Bay_Railway

[jjb1970]

3) IIRC, Alco became a highly successful pioneer of diesel traction, while Baldwin rapidly dwindled and disappeared because they never got to grips with the new technology. I’m unclear what Bulleid might have been expected to achieve by studying their last years of steam?

 

Alco and Baldwin continued to develop advanced steam concepts almost to the end. Like Bullied they could envisage evolving the classic steam locomotive far beyond the technological plateau it had reached by the 1930's. In hindsight their efforts and dreams were as much an exercise in futility and dreams as those of Bullied but that doesn't detract from the vision and expertise of those who could see steam locomotive development far beyond regular designs of the 1930's. So for example Baldwin built the C&O M1 and N&W Jawn Henry coal fired steam turbo - electric locomotives as well as the PRR S2 steam turbine locomotive (interestingly, GE built a steam turbo-electric locomotive for the UP before WW2). To me that puts their engineers alongside Bullied as steam locomotive visionaries, they were wrong, but they were gloriously wrong in their efforts. 

 

In terms of dieselisation, both Alco and Baldwin were very early pioneers of diesel locomotives however neither company really managed to make the transition from steam to diesel. They didn't really believe in diesel traction until it was too late and continued to invest in and produce steam locomotives at a time when EMC (then EMD) believed in diesel. Their manufacturing methods and managerial culture had been defined by steam (even their works) and they failed to appreciate the transition from low rate batch production of bespoke steam locomotives to one of serially manufactured standard designs. Alco improved somewhat but early Baldwin and Alco diesels were manufactured using practices and techniques borrowed from steam locomotive manufacture. The fact that Alco lasted as long as they did was down to two reasons, neither of which was a result of any great achievement of Alco:

 

• They entered a partnership with GE, GE provided the electrical engineering expertise and marketing, and also improved after sales support (although that appears to have been a source of constant friction between Alco and GE with GE being rather scathing of Alco's efforts), and
• Anti-trust issues meant the market needed an alternative to EMD. There is evidence that EMD themselves voluntarily avoided trying to completely control the market and many of their customers maintained a second source of supply to keep an alternative in the market. When GE entered the market on their own account then the second (and eventually premier) supplier became GE and Alco was a dead man walking and soon left the locomotive market.

[ozzyo]

You do if your locomotive is fitted with Trofimov modified Walschearts gear. After shutting off you immediately wind out to full forward gear, then once steam chest pressure is zero (which is normally about the time taken to get her out to 65-70%) you wind back to mid gear and leave it there until coming to a stop.

During this process the valve heads move on the spindle towards each other leaving the valve ports open, the rough idea being that there is less friction when coasting to a stop.

Prior to moving after the stop and whilst still in mid gear you quickly open and close the regulator to reset the valves to the extended position (a loud thump is heard from the for'd end) and then wind out to full forward ready for the off.

A design seen on the continent and Eastern Europe/Russia, but I don't think it was ever seen on these shores - I could be wrong however..

 I don't know about the Trofimoy Walschears vale gear but you would tend to start the loco off at about 75-70% cut off and then drop down to about 15-20% the smaller the cut off the less steam was admitted to the cylinders. The drift position was at about 17% iirc, the regulator also had a drift position on it, it was just before closed so it would keep steam to the cylinders.

 

OL49-59 has Trofimov gear, 7 and 69 have conventional Walschearts valve gear where you normally wind out to 65% forward gear when coasting. I can't remember the numbers of the other Trofimov locomotives however.

 

 

It is usually a mechanical lubricator that pumps a set amount of oil per revolution in to the steam line. If there is no steam there is nothing to carry the oil to the valves and cylinders, hence the requirement for locos being in light steam when towed.

 

What is a little concerning is that since the steam line feeds all three cylinders, if one valve was not getting any oil then neither were the others...

On most steam locos that have mec. lub.to the piston valves and cylinders all of them will have there own supply. L/H front valve, L/H rear valve, L/H cylinder centre. and so on for the other cylinders and valves. So if one supply goes down you should still have oil to all of the other parts. Light steam is also helpful in keeping the "steam oil" fluid as if it gets cold it's like black mud (crude oil). 

 

OzzyO.

[jjb1970]

That suggests its a waste of time, money and effort in restoring any other loco, surely not? The owners of other steam locomotives must be devastated to know that their efforts have been in vain.

 

I think the owners of other locomotives will understand that it is what it is. There is an enthusiast market which appreciates the variety of preserved steam locomotives and who will have their own preferences and favourites, and the general public for whom a steamer is a steamer and who probably have no idea what any of them are beyond Flying Scotsman and maybe Tornado. Is that right? Maybe not but it's no different to any other part of our heritage and I'm pretty sure the same scenario would apply to most RMWeb members in relation to other parts of our heritage.

[APOLLO]

The New York Central Niagara 4-8-4 was a particularly successful locomotive. A bit late in the day though as diesels eventually eliminated it. Shame none were preserved.

 

 

Read about its comparison costs etc with the diesels of the time here. Very interesting.

 

Cost comparison Steam versus diesel, 1946 NYC road trials

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Central_Niagara

 

The six days per week running schedule of these locomotives meant that all of the maintenance work normally done over the course of that week would have to be done on one day. This meant a specialized system was developed, where men in "hot suits" (asbestos heat-resistant coveralls) entered the firebox while the locomotive was still in steam and cleared all of the tubes, repaired the brick arch, etc. As the temperature inside the firebox itself would have been well over 100 degrees Celsius (212 F), and the working area these maintenance workers would have been standing on was the still-hot firebars of the grate, all references describe these workers as 'heroic' 

 

Brit15

Edited April 24, 2018 by APOLLO

[Pacific231G]

I wonder if people would pay to ride behind a fake steam locomotive? It would have to be a really good simulation of course, not unlike some of the excellent models people make. The train would actually be propelled by a diesel locomotive lurking somewhere in the consist.

They probably would pay and in some places do but a fake simply isn't the same. I can remember, during my first visit to America in the 1970s, visiting Disneyland in Anaheim and being absolutely delighted to discover that the three foot gauge Disneyland Railroad that runs around the perimeter of the site connecting the various "lands" was and still is operated by real steam locos. two of them specially built but the others built by Baldwin for sugar plantations etc. I had simply assumed that the locos would be diesel or electric fakes but they weren't and they were rather wonderful as was the Mark Twain, effectively a 5/8 scale model of a typical sternwheel river boat  which, though steered by an underwater guide track, was and is powered by a steam driven sternwheel paddle.

 

I notice that the North Bay Railway in Scarborough does now have Georgina, a real steam loco, and apparently very popular.

 

I very much doubt if Tornado will be the last "new" mainline steam loco ever to be built and new steam locos are surely not that rare on NG railways. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Pacific231G

[jamie92208]

I wonder if people would pay to ride behind a fake steam locomotive? It would have to be a really good simulation of course, not unlike some of the excellent models people make. The train would actually be propelled by a diesel locomotive lurking somewhere in the consist.

 

In Boone, Iowa, two of us came across a 'Thomas' event by chance.   Obviously it was a fake steam engine but many people were turning up to be 'hauled' by it in ex interurban coaches pushed by a diesel loco at the back.   We had a chat with the driver of Thomas and he asked us not to tell anyone that it was actually fake.

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

They probably would pay and in some places do but a fake simply isn't the same. I can remember, during my first visit to America in the 1970s, visiting Disneyland in Anaheim and being absolutely delighted to discover that the three foot gauge Disneyland Railroad that runs around the perimeter of the site connecting the various "lands" was and still is operated by real steam locos. two of them specially built but the others built by Baldwin for sugar plantations etc. I had simply assumed that the locos would be diesel or electric fakes but they weren't and they were rather wonderful as was the Mark Twain, effectively a 5/8 scale model of a typical sternwheel river boat  which, though steered by an underwater guide track, was and is powered by a steam driven sternwheel paddle.

 

Walt Disney was a dedicated steam enthusiast and I believe that he actually built some quite large live steam locos.   I believe that he insisted that the line round Disneyland be powered by real steam locos.

 

Jamie

[Pacific231G]

Walt Disney was a dedicated steam enthusiast and I believe that he actually built some quite large live steam locos.   I believe that he insisted that the line round Disneyland be powered by real steam locos.

 

Jamie

That's true, Walt Disney had the 7 ¹/₄  inch Carolwood Pacific Railroad at this home but, apart from Hong Kong, where fake IC "steam" locos are used,  the other four Disney theme parks with their own railroads do use live steam and it's only the one in Disneyland that was built during his lifetime. 

 

I don't think he actually built any miniature steam locos himself but did make some of the parts and the cab for the loco used on the Carolwood RR as well as some of the rolling stock.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Pacific231G

[jjb1970]

The New York Central Niagara 4-8-4 was a particularly successful locomotive. A bit late in the day though as diesels eventually eliminated it. Shame none were preserved.

 

 

Read about its comparison costs etc with the diesels of the time here. Very interesting.

 

Cost comparison Steam versus diesel, 1946 NYC road trials

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Central_Niagara

 

The six days per week running schedule of these locomotives meant that all of the maintenance work normally done over the course of that week would have to be done on one day. This meant a specialized system was developed, where men in "hot suits" (asbestos heat-resistant coveralls) entered the firebox while the locomotive was still in steam and cleared all of the tubes, repaired the brick arch, etc. As the temperature inside the firebox itself would have been well over 100 degrees Celsius (212 F), and the working area these maintenance workers would have been standing on was the still-hot firebars of the grate, all references describe these workers as 'heroic' 

 

Brit15

 

Magnificent machines!! Even though I prefer the NYC Hudson's you can't argue with the overall excellentness of the Niagara's. The US built some wonderful steam locomotives, for all many are fixated on the big articulated designs I much prefer types like the Hudson's, Niagara's and of course the mighty Pennsy T1.

[brack]

Ah that's why Tornado 'failed'. The diesel tender konked out. There, the secret is out at last. Now I will have to be locked up.

P

To be honest a diesel tender isn't a bad idea in a sense - if it could be built within the body outline of a coach (perhaps using bogies from a suitable emu?) You could have something on board for shunting at destinations or moving stock about without looking awful (like tagging an idling type 4 on the back does) Edited April 24, 2018 by brack

[Coryton]

To be honest a diesel tender isn't a bad idea in a sense - if it could be built within the body outline of a coach (perhaps using bogies from a suitable emu?) You could have something on board for shunting at destinations or moving stock about without looking awful (like tagging an idling type 4 on the back does)

 

After all it's just one step up from a diesel generator van providing ETS...

[Zomboid]

Magnificent machines!! Even though I prefer the NYC Hudson's you can't argue with the overall excellentness of the Niagara's. The US built some wonderful steam locomotives, for all many are fixated on the big articulated designs I much prefer types like the Hudson's, Niagara's and of course the mighty Pennsy T1.

The articulated locos have a lot of charm, but for me the 4-8-4 has the best proportions of them all.

[BR60103]

Walt Disney's spec for Disneyland: "It should be like nothing in the world and there should be a train around it."

(can't locate exact quote)

 

Someone in the company thought that it would have been cheaper to build new locos from scratch than refurbish 50-year old ones.

[kevinlms]

The New York Central Niagara 4-8-4 was a particularly successful locomotive. A bit late in the day though as diesels eventually eliminated it. Shame none were preserved.

 

 

Read about its comparison costs etc with the diesels of the time here. Very interesting.

 

Cost comparison Steam versus diesel, 1946 NYC road trials

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Central_Niagara

 

The six days per week running schedule of these locomotives meant that all of the maintenance work normally done over the course of that week would have to be done on one day. This meant a specialized system was developed, where men in "hot suits" (asbestos heat-resistant coveralls) entered the firebox while the locomotive was still in steam and cleared all of the tubes, repaired the brick arch, etc. As the temperature inside the firebox itself would have been well over 100 degrees Celsius (212 F), and the working area these maintenance workers would have been standing on was the still-hot firebars of the grate, all references describe these workers as 'heroic' 

 

Brit15

Asbestos suits & searing temperatures. A great combination for their health!

[jjb1970]

Asbestos suits & searing temperatures. A great combination for their health!

 

Men were made of sterner stuff in the olden days, before elf n'safety went mad, fuelled by extra high tar filterless fags, beer and lard. It was a happier world..

[Mallard60022]

Perhaps Disney will make a film about Tornado failing on the main line.........that's about as far off the topic we could get is it not?

P