Tornado fails on ECML

[chris p bacon]

The section of track where Tornado came to a standstill has a bit of a reputation in these parts.

 

In the late 60's there was a buckled rail with the Down Yorkshire(?) Pullman coming to grief down the embankment to the West, luckily there were only minor injuries. There have been quite a few suicides including 2 in the last 4 months. The 2nd of these was on Monday afternoon when some poor person walked in front of a Down train.

 

A broken piston/motion and some delays are looking quite minor.

[LNERGE]

The section of track where Tornado came to a standstill has a bit of a reputation in these parts.

 

In the late 60's there was a buckled rail with the Down Yorkshire(?) Pullman coming to grief down the embankment to the West, luckily there were only minor injuries. There have been quite a few suicides including 2 in the last 4 months. The 2nd of these was on Monday afternoon when some poor person walked in front of a Down train.

 

A broken piston/motion and some delays are looking quite minor.

If i get a whiff of creosoted sleepers on a hot day takes me straight back to Sandy in August 1969. When we turned up in the family car there was still dust in the air and the first passengers were starting to emerge from the coaches. I was three years old.

[chris p bacon]

If i get a whiff of creosoted sleepers on a hot day takes me straight back to Sandy in August 1969. When we turned up in the family car there was still dust in the air and the first passengers were starting to emerge from the coaches. I was three years old.

 

I was on the footbridge. (I have pictures from a chap called Ivor Walton) I think half of Sandy turned up to look.

[kevinlms]

 

 

The later series of 4-8-4's are rated at 6000 hp which is 1500 hp per driven axle.  Even today diesels have never reached that figure. 

 

Jamie

I think its true to say that there is no need. Its much more efficient to have a 'standard' loco and run these in multiple to create the required power to move a train, at the desired speeds. They can be added to/subtracted as required.

 

The Union Pacific had some very powerful Gas Turbine locos and proved to be very uneconomic, even though they used the cheapest fuel available at the time.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_turbine_locomotive#Gas_turbine-electric

[jjb1970]

The other thing is that it is not just a question of power, but how usable that power is and power delivery. The power/torque characteristics of electric motors are very different to those of a reciprocating steam engine and diesel/electric locomotives can generate very high tractive effort. Not to mention that a diesel engine offers very consistent performance. One of the reasons companies like Alco and Baldwin thought steam still had a future even in the late 1930's and 1940's when the technology was obsolete was that they correctly observed steamers could offer far more power than diesels, ignoring the fact that diesels offered excellent tractive effort and could be operated in multiple to boost power. Dieselisation was a good example of a technology offering sufficient benefit for an industry to adjust its operations to the technology rather than demanding a straight "drop in" product.

[Pandora]

I am guilty, as a boy I saw illustrations of USA steam, dismissed them as "absolutely hideous in appearance" and went back to my 36A favourites.  

I now realise that the USA was decades ahead,  for example manufacturing techniques,  the A1 pacifics frames were fabricated from short lengths of plate steel, bolt-on cylinders ( capable of working loose).

The USA had mastered the technique of a casting a  one-piece locomotive bed in high quality steel,  some of the largest castinsg ever made, the casting was a chassis for a steam locomotive with the cylinders air tanks etc all  in a single unit,  a masterpiece of pattern making and the skills of the Foundry workers

 

We also come to the speed and power,  the uncomfortable thought that the one-off speed record of  Mallard may very well have been surpassed a good number of occasions  times by those USA giants during  the running of timetabled service trains 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Pandora

[roythebus]

A few interesting points from this thread. First is the news that the cause of the breakdown has been identified. The reason for that cause has yet to be discovered.

 

Mention has been made of the Midland Railway changing from vegetable oil to mineral oil causing problems on certain locos. I'm into bus preservation and have a friend who was an expert in the development of oils for all sorts of applications in the 1960s and 70. I had several discussions with him regarding the use of original spec oils for buses and his view was that more modern oils are usually quite superior to original spec oils in a number o ways. The way they are refined to remove as many impurities as possible was one of the things mentioned. Part of his remit was to find out why a certain company's Atlantean buses suffered rear axle failures with alarming regularity.  The oil had been specially developed fo this axle and was not found to be at fault. The garages had been over-filling the axles which was causing the problem! Modern oils can also operate at much higher temperatures than OE oils, such as that used for fluid flywheels in buses. the OE spec was usually to use engine oil but a modern ATX transmission oil is far better because it can run at a much higher temperature and reduce the risk of the flywheel catching fire. Maybe the wrong grade of oil was used on Tornado? I speculate.

 

Re metal fatigue and mention of the axle faiures on Bullied locos, London Transport suffered a number of wheel failures in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The last I remember was at Parsons Green one afternoon when a COP stock broke its leading wheels when the brake was applied for the station. I was on site as late spare guard when it happened. to cut a long story short, the entire District fleet had to be taken off and inspected. It was found that a batch of wheels made in Switzerland in the early 1930s had a tendency to have hair line cracks in the wheel spokes. Luckily nobody was injured in any of the broken wheel incidents.

 

Otherwise let's let the experts do their job.

[Oldddudders]

A record is a record, i.e. it was properly observed and documented. The annals of railways are littered with stories and claims unsubstantiable. Tales of REP EMUs at 123 mph between Basingstoke and Winchester, or a down Deltic crew being relieved at York, because their efforts to make up time had clearly required very illegal speeds to be attained. 

 

What this or that Pacific, Northern or Duplex may have done on the day is not documented, and Mallard's record stands unchallenged. 

[sir douglas]

Have to agree that problems will always crop up following maintenance. Lubrication, hydraulic or pneumatic systems are all prone to problems after maintenance. Someone disconnects a pipe, stuffs a bit of rag up it to stop oil dripping out and crap getting in, then someone else comes along a refits it inadvertently leaving a piece of rag in the pipe, or introduces some other contaminant. It might float around for a while, even get expelled and not noticed, but then again it could block a pipe or jam in a valve. The times I've seen and heard of people replacing parts and leaving the transit bungs in things, then wondering why there is a lack of pressure.

A lecturer a N. Notts college once told me that the act of disconnecting and reconnecting a hydraulic hose would introduce thousands of tiny particles into the system. If it ain't broke, don't take it apart.

 

Dave

 

this reminds me of a story my dad told me of his days on the buses, for years one of the buses had been playing up and subsequently had many parts replaced over the years without the problem going away until it was found that somebody had stuffed something into the fuel tank, there was nothing wrong with all the parts that had been replaced many times costing them a few grand i expect, i cant remember the specifics of the story 

[russ p]

A lot of traction is a lot faster than its rated at.

I've been on a pair of 37s doing just short of 125 light engine over 30 years ago.

BR knewbof the potential of 37s and were used in 100 mph + tests involving APT-P

[Pandora]

The other thing is that it is not just a question of power, but how usable that power is and power delivery. The power/torque characteristics of electric motors are very different to those of a reciprocating steam engine and diesel/electric locomotives can generate very high tractive effort. Not to mention that a diesel engine offers very consistent performance. One of the reasons companies like Alco and Baldwin thought steam still had a future even in the late 1930's and 1940's when the technology was obsolete was that they correctly observed steamers could offer far more power than diesels, ignoring the fact that diesels offered excellent tractive effort and could be operated in multiple to boost power. Dieselisation was a good example of a technology offering sufficient benefit for an industry to adjust its operations to the technology rather than demanding a straight "drop in" product.

Dieselisation was a disruptive technology to steam and a threat to the established manufacturers such as Alco, Baldwin, Lima, North British, who were  faced with the cost and risk of writing off their long established knowledge of how to build steam locomotives, and then  mastering the new technology of diesel and electricity.

Some tried to compete by progressing and improving their technology and eventually ran into the ditch at the next turn of the road

History is full of such examples , the Mainframe Computer manufacturers struggled with the Super-Mini computer and lost, and the Super-Mini makers in turn struggled with the IBM compatible PC and lost.

The turmoil of Change is very hard to manage,  I have been caught out more than  once in my career by believing the "Old Guard" and their  subjective  thoughts and opinions and not thinking for myself.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Pandora

[Zomboid]

A record is a record, i.e. it was properly observed and documented. The annals of railways are littered with stories and claims unsubstantiable. Tales of REP EMUs at 123 mph between Basingstoke and Winchester, or a down Deltic crew being relieved at York, because their efforts to make up time had clearly required very illegal speeds to be attained.

 

What this or that Pacific, Northern or Duplex may have done on the day is not documented, and Mallard's record stands unchallenged.

Though it is the T1 groups stated aim to claim the record, and I have no doubt that the machine will be capable if the opportunity presents itself.

 

Which does not in any way diminish the record which Mallard holds.

[Mallard60022]

Though it is the T1 groups stated aim to claim the record, and I have no doubt that the machine will be capable if the opportunity presents itself.

 

Which does not in any way diminish the record which Mallard holds.

I doubt there is any track in the US that is up to the standard to take 126+mph? That is probably rather rude but their passenger services are not that quick and are not most lines just graded for heavy freight\?

P 

[david.hill64]

I doubt there is any track in the US that is up to the standard to take 126+mph? That is probably rather rude but their passenger services are not that quick and are not most lines just graded for heavy freight\?

P 

150mph for the Acela trains.

 

If you look at most US track, it seems to be in much better condition than most UK track. Remember that US operates 35 ton axleloads at 70mph on primitive three piece bogies, so the track has to be spot on.

[Reorte]

The turmoil of Change is very hard to manage,  I have been caught out more than  once in my career by believing the "Old Guard" and their  subjective  thoughts and opinions and not thinking for myself.

It's often portrayed as those not going with the new lose out but remember history is also littered with failed new ideas. They're just not as obvious in hindsight because we're not living with their legacy. All the forgotten next big things. There's also the early adaptor danger, where you end up doing a lot of the development required to get something into a useful, commercially viable state and others are the ones successful with selling it.

[Zomboid]

150mph for the Acela trains.

 

If you look at most US track, it seems to be in much better condition than most UK track. Remember that US operates 35 ton axleloads at 70mph on primitive three piece bogies, so the track has to be spot on.

Certainly their trunk routes are designed for seriously heavy trains, though when you get onto some of the branches it's more ropey.

 

I'm sure they'll have somewhere suitable to see exactly what the T1 is capable of. Lots of miles of railroad to choose from if they can get permission.

[Pandora]

The message from the A1 Trust

 

"the middle piston valve overheating and binding in the valve chest"

 

" root cause not clear  but inadequate lubrication likely.................... factors"

 

Is it correct that the middle cylinder will run hotter than the outside cylinders? 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Pandora

[Mallard60022]

150mph for the Acela trains.

 

If you look at most US track, it seems to be in much better condition than most UK track. Remember that US operates 35 ton axleloads at 70mph on primitive three piece bogies, so the track has to be spot on.

Blimey, I'll take my comment back then. I must have missed this on Portillo's jaunts in the US.

Phil

[Titan]

The message from the A1 Trust

 

"the middle piston valve overheating and binding in the valve chest"

 

" root cause not clear  but inadequate lubrication likely.................... factors"

 

Is it correct that the middle cylinder will run hotter than the outside cylinders? 

 

I think that was an issue with conjugated valve gear fitted locos. I don't think there is any reason for the middle valve to run hotter with locos that have separate valve gear like Tornado.

[rodent279]

A few interesting points from this thread. First is the news that the cause of the breakdown has been identified. The reason for that cause has yet to be discovered.

 

Mention has been made of the Midland Railway changing from vegetable oil to mineral oil causing problems on certain locos. I'm into bus preservation and have a friend who was an expert in the development of oils for all sorts of applications in the 1960s and 70. I had several discussions with him regarding the use of original spec oils for buses and his view was that more modern oils are usually quite superior to original spec oils in a number o ways. The way they are refined to remove as many impurities as possible was one of the things mentioned. Part of his remit was to find out why a certain company's Atlantean buses suffered rear axle failures with alarming regularity. The oil had been specially developed fo this axle and was not found to be at fault. The garages had been over-filling the axles which was causing the problem! Modern oils can also operate at much higher temperatures than OE oils, such as that used for fluid flywheels in buses. the OE spec was usually to use engine oil but a modern ATX transmission oil is far better because it can run at a much higher temperature and reduce the risk of the flywheel catching fire. Maybe the wrong grade of oil was used on Tornado? I speculate.

 

Re metal fatigue and mention of the axle faiures on Bullied locos, London Transport suffered a number of wheel failures in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The last I remember was at Parsons Green one afternoon when a COP stock broke its leading wheels when the brake was applied for the station. I was on site as late spare guard when it happened. to cut a long story short, the entire District fleet had to be taken off and inspected. It was found that a batch of wheels made in Switzerland in the early 1930s had a tendency to have hair line cracks in the wheel spokes. Luckily nobody was injured in any of the broken wheel incidents.

 

Otherwise let's let the experts do their job.

Spot on. Modern oils are far better than anything around in the 1950's. De-coking an engine is almost unheard of these days, unless it's been badly abused. If it is an oil type/quality issue, I doubt very much that it's anything to do with EU regs. Edited April 19, 2018 by rodent279

[Oldddudders]

Spot on. Modern oils are far better than anything around in the 1950's. De-coking an engine is almost unheard of these days, unless it's been badly abused. If it is an oil type/quality issue, I doubt very much that it's anything to do with EU regs.

 

Just as we no longer need an oil change every 3000 miles. I have every confidence a tribologist will be among those involved in assessing what happened and why. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Oldddudders

[Corbs]

I am guilty, as a boy I saw illustrations of USA steam, dismissed them as "absolutely hideous in appearance" and went back to my 36A favourites.  

I now realise that the USA was decades ahead,  for example manufacturing techniques,  the A1 pacifics frames were fabricated from short lengths of plate steel, bolt-on cylinders ( capable of working loose).

The USA had mastered the technique of a casting a  one-piece locomotive bed in high quality steel,  some of the largest castinsg ever made, the casting was a chassis for a steam locomotive with the cylinders air tanks etc all  in a single unit,  a masterpiece of pattern making and the skills of the Foundry workers

 

We also come to the speed and power,  the uncomfortable thought that the one-off speed record of  Mallard may very well have been surpassed a good number of occasions  times by those USA giants during  the running of timetabled service trains 

 

Recently I was reading a book about a British armoured division in WWII, when they replaced their British-built Matildas and Valentines with US-built Stuarts, the difference was amazing. I'm writing from memory but a point was made about British obsession with 'craftsmanship', which they likened to making something that shouldn't fit, fit.

They were amazed that a part from one Stuart would fit another without any modification needed, due to the efficiencies of mass production, whereas the British ones seemed to be made all in one go and parts would often need modification before fitting.

[TheQ]

Within America there were vast differences, when Ford  /GM etc started making aircraft for WW2, they couldn't believe how big the tolerances were, needing as you say a hand made approach. The Car manufacturers soon sorted that in order to mass produce aircraft.

[rodent279]

Just as we no longer need an oil change every 3000 miles. I have every confidence a tribologist will be among those involved in assessing what happened and why.

Though I still do a change every 3000!

 

I have read somewhere though, that changing the oil too frequently doesn't actually help. Can't remember why, but I think it was something to do with the oil needing time to reach optimum "oiliness".

[Titan]

Though I still do a change every 3000!

 

I have read somewhere though, that changing the oil too frequently doesn't actually help. Can't remember why, but I think it was something to do with the oil needing time to reach optimum "oiliness".

 

I had a suspicion that the very long intervals between oil changes on a modern car were just a ruse by the manufacturers in order to attract fleet buyers with lower maintenance costs, with the second or third owner down the line suffering the consequences long after the warranty ran out.

 

However, having religiously stuck to the manufacturers recommendations on my car, and having no discernible engine wear after 130,000 miles - The oil level hardly seems to drop between services, I am forming the opinion that the manufacturers and oil companies know what they are talking about and changing it more frequently is a waste of money and oil.