Tornado fails on ECML

[jjb1970]

Natural gas is being touted as the next marine fuel by some. Compared to oil it tends to result in lower emissions of NOx and is pretty much sulphur free. The carbon factor is lower than oil and coal but it is still a hydrocarbon fuel and we aren't going to eliminate GHG emissions by switching to natural gas. Also, gas Otto engines have methane slip, and methane is a much more potent GHG than CO2. Gas Diesel engines have negligible methane slip but higher NOx emissions and need high pressure gas (typically 250bar+), on ships you can easily lift the pressure in the liquid phase using a pump but if you need to do it in the gas phase you need a big compressor with a high parasitic load. For automotive use I'm guessing you would use compressed natural gas. Some of the advocacy material for gas engines is a bit disingenuous.

[jjb1970]

Does that mean that I can't write a cheque for a new fleet of Duchesses when my numbers come up on the Euromillions then.

 

Jamie

 

Only after you've paid for a new New York Central J Hudson and a Pennsy T1

[jjb1970]

By what I have seen renewable energy doesnt provide much of our daily supply, its nearly all gas or nuclear except on the occasional day when its sunny and windy at the same time, so about 10 days a year.

 

We're in a transition, no transition occurs overnight, especially not one of this magnitude. The electricity generating sector has changed almost beyond recognition over the last twenty years. Renewable energy was more subsidy generator than electricity generator when I was in the industry, now it is genuinely commercially attractive regardless of subsidies. King coal is dying and we now quite regularly don't need the remaining coal plants. The grid is changing too thanks to micro-generation and local micro-grids.

 

There are a few sites that show the state of the grid, but this one is very well presented:

 

http://gridwatch.org.uk/

[royaloak]

 

We're in a transition, no transition occurs overnight, especially not one of this magnitude. The electricity generating sector has changed almost beyond recognition over the last twenty years. Renewable energy was more subsidy generator than electricity generator when I was in the industry, now it is genuinely commercially attractive regardless of subsidies. King coal is dying and we now quite regularly don't need the remaining coal plants. The grid is changing too thanks to micro-generation and local micro-grids.

 

There are a few sites that show the state of the grid, but this one is very well presented:

 

http://gridwatch.org.uk/

I have a bookmark to that site and it can be quite interesting watching it fluctuate during the day, As you say most wind or solar doesnt actually appear on the list as it is unmetered but even then we still rely on coal in winter to make up the shortfall, and thats before we get onto the amount of electricity we import from Europe and the amount of gas we import from Russia, well pretty much everywhere.

[APOLLO]

Yes the energy industry (mainly emissions regulations driven) is in constant change (hopefully) for the better to us all, even Tornado fans (future coal burn).

 

This is also an interesting site     http://www.ukenergywatch.org/

 

Shows wind farm input.

 

Look at the nations gas inflows page - currently Easington is 941.4 m³/s, that's 81.34 Mm³/day - a hell of a lot of gas, mostly going to power generation.

 

It can't last forever at these flows. I don't know how long, 5 years ?, 10?, 50? - there are many (conflicting) projections.

 

My point is wind farms and other renewables can't match this sort of huge raw power input into the system. Coal and the hundreds of pits did so for over a century, but that is history. We are (and have been for quite a while) importing LNG from abroad, and may soon import via pipeline from Russia via the existing European gas transmission network & North Sea interconnectors. That is a political nightmare.

 

Its a question of supplying peak base load. We are cutting it thinner and thinner every winter, just about scraping through.

 

Quite simply we (the UK) will need new base load generation ((Nuclear Tidal barrage etc), very soon. If not those of you with smart meters will painfully find out what they are capable of - emptying your wallet at peak times.

 

JIB pins the future on renewables, I have my doubts. It's the sheer size of the gas and electric loads at peak in winter. 

 

Brit15

Edited April 29, 2018 by APOLLO

[Coryton]

DIdn't the Swiss do that once, or something similar, as a stopgap measure due to having lots of electric lines but not enough locos? Sounds a bit odd but I could swear I read something about it once.

 

That sounds very familiar.

 

(Tornado? What's that?)

[Coryton]

I have a bookmark to that site and it can be quite interesting watching it fluctuate during the day, As you say most wind or solar doesnt actually appear on the list as it is unmetered but even then we still rely on coal in winter to make up the shortfall, and thats before we get onto the amount of electricity we import from Europe and the amount of gas we import from Russia, well pretty much everywhere.

 

My recollection is that on a good day a pretty impressive proportion of electricity production now comes from renewables.

 

But of course that's not the whole picture because it ignores gas used for heating and cooking etc.

[stewartingram]

When I was at school, I was taught that there is no such thing as a 100% transfer of energy from one form to another. There is always a loss of energy during the transfer. So take any raw fuel, use it in its initial form, and that is maximum efficiency - but never 100%. Convert it to another form, take a loss in the conversion, then use it, more loss.

 

Stewart

[Coryton]

When I was at school, I was taught that there is no such thing as a 100% transfer of energy from one form to another. There is always a loss of energy during the transfer. So take any raw fuel, use it in its initial form, and that is maximum efficiency - but never 100%. Convert it to another form, take a loss in the conversion, then use it, more loss.

 

Stewart

 

To be pedantic, all the energy gets transferred to different forms...but not all of it to something useful.

 

The rest usually ends up as heat.

[rodent279]

When I was at school, I was taught that there is no such thing as a 100% transfer of energy from one form to another. There is always a loss of energy during the transfer. So take any raw fuel, use it in its initial form, and that is maximum efficiency - but never 100%. Convert it to another form, take a loss in the conversion, then use it, more loss.

 

Stewart

Yep, correct, basic 'O' level physics. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, but it can be converted from one form to another. In doing so there is always some loss.

[rodent279]

To be pedantic, all the energy gets transferred to different forms...but not all of it to something useful.

 

The rest usually ends up as heat.

It pretty much all ends up as heat sooner or later.

[Coryton]

Yep, correct, basic 'O' level physics. Energy cannot be created or destroyed,

 

As long as you consider 'energy' to include mass (e=mc^2 and all that).

 

But I fear we may be going ever so slightly off topic here.

[Colin_McLeod]

At Stewartby landfill the gas is already siphoned off and used for power generation.

Also in Cork city. The landfill site closed some years ago but the methane is still being used to generate electricity for 500 houses. Edited April 29, 2018 by Colin_McLeod

[Colin_McLeod]

But I fear we may be going ever so slightly off topic here.

That happened many many posts ago.

[jjb1970]

Personally, even as an advocate of renewable energy such as wind, solar and wave, I still think nuclear has its place. I think we are maybe going down the wrong road with nuclear really in building very large conventional PWR plants rated for GW output. Those plants are very expensive and not especially flexible, there is a lot of work going into smaller nuclear plants (including thorium reactors) sized in 10's of MW output, basically equivalent to the sort of plants often built for industrial CHP applications. The reactors can be designed and manufactured as sealed units and designed for ease of recycling and to minimise waste.

[PhilH]

Perhaps we can harness the power of a tornado...

 

Ah, back on topic.

[rodent279]

Perhaps we can harness the power of a tornado...

 

Ah, back on topic.

Now that would be cool. Fit a pantograph, transformer & heating elements to 60163, use electricity generated by wind and there you have it. Tornado powered by a tornado. Edited April 29, 2018 by rodent279

[Pacific231G]

Now that would be cool. Fit a pantograph, transformer & heating elements to 60163, use electricity generated by wind and there you have it. Tornado powered by a tornado.

Amusing or nightmarish depending on your POV but the overall thermal efficiency of an electrically fired steam engine must be down there wih Thomas Newcomen. You get the inherent losses from converting heat into power twice. The Swiss locos took advantage of the copious amounts of hydro electricity available (which is ultimately solar heat turned into a power source via a natural process) but even so were only used to cover an emergency. 

[AndyID]

Slightly more OT, what does the A1 Trust have to do to convince NR it's OK to run Tornado on their rails again?

[jjb1970]

Slightly more OT, what does the A1 Trust have to do to convince NR it's OK to run Tornado on their rails again?

Delivery of a suitably weighty brown envelope to a bloke in Milton Keynes, oops, shouldn't have said that...move along, nothing to see here.

[Hroth]

Now that would be cool. Fit a pantograph, transformer & heating elements to 60163, use electricity generated by wind and there you have it. Tornado powered by a tornado.

Tornado is NOT an electric kettle....

[rodent279]

Tornado is NOT an electric kettle....

I know! Tongue in cheek!

[rodent279]

Amusing or nightmarish depending on your POV but the overall thermal efficiency of an electrically fired steam engine must be down there wih Thomas Newcomen. You get the inherent losses from converting heat into power twice. The Swiss locos took advantage of the copious amounts of hydro electricity available (which is ultimately solar heat turned into a power source via a natural process) but even so were only used to cover an emergency.

Though, arguably, wind power is solar power, as that's where wind comes from isn't it? Different rates of heating of different parts of the Earth's surface causing the atmosphere to heat up and cool down unevenly. I think..... Not that I paid that much attention in geography lessons, the WCML was visible from the classroom window!

[Titan]

Slightly more OT, what does the A1 Trust have to do to convince NR it's OK to run Tornado on their rails again?

 

Presumably just the same as any other locomotive that breaks down. Don't see any class 60's being banned if they fail, or needing any other paperwork over and above what you normally need to return a loco to service after a repair.

[APOLLO]

Delivery of a suitably weighty brown envelope to a bloke in Milton Keynes, oops, shouldn't have said that...move along, nothing to see here.

 

So that's where the broken motion bits will be sent to !! - Not a lot of scrap value though.

 

Brit15