Andy C Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 When you say the 4F will be next, is this a chassis or are you doing a decent body? I suspect its going to be a chassis for Bachmans soon to be announced 4F to be quite honest. Your chassis is definately prompting me to give up on the Gibbo kit Mr Franks!! - Wonder if Bachman have any returns on the stand at Ally Pally if I can be bothered braving the scrum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Hi Coachmann, here's what I posted about the 4F a wee while ago, I still say I'll be happy with that if it has the necessary bits sorted:- <Okay, here goes.... I'm afraid the Roche drawings are well out, not just for the 4F but I'm told for just about every loco drawn. I was warned years ago by better modellers than me that the Roche drawings should be used like sketches and not to be taken as gospel. I need three or four 4Fs for my railway and I'm not about to start building complicated kits, been there, done that, life's too short.... I've checked the Airfix 4F against a properly dimensioned railway drawing as reproduced in the excellent Loco Profiles book by Wild Swan and can state that the Airfix 4F isn't as bad as people make out. Starting at the front, Buffer beam to axle - 'spot on'. Smokebox length - spot on. Smokebox to dome 0.5mm under. Boiler barrel length - 0.5mm over. Boiler diameter over clothing - 'spot on'. Front of firebox to cab front - 1mm under. (not 3mm as the Roche drawing has it). And overall from bufferbeam to dragbeam is 'spot on' again. So can we put up with the firebox being 1mm short, I can, and if we have to reduce the diameter of the splashers by 1.5mm then so what, I had to do more work to some recent locos from Bachmann. I was once asked by a well known magazine editor what I thought of the Airfix 4F and when I told him these dimensional errors he was surprised as he'd always thought it a 'lemon'. I'm of the opinion that it could be the basis for a good model if a good scale chassis was done for it with some nice etched splashers... well.... Okay I'll admit it, I'm working on that very thing, I'm just waiting to see the new Hornby one in case they've altered the fixing points. Ducks down behind the parapet.... > So there we have it, I think there are lots of old 4Fs lurking about just waiting for a new CSB EM or P4 chassis and with a little work on the details mentioned the owner would be quite happy with it. I admit it's not perfect but with a layout and other stock to finish in my lifetime it's what I'll have to do. The Bachmann 3F isn't perfect either, the splashers are almost the same amount oversize as the 4F but not much has been said about them.... Oh, and I won't mention the centre wheel balance weight being in the wrong place, tut, tut, Bachmann. Airfix got that one correct 35 years ago. All the best, Dave Franks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Thanks for the dimensional synopsis, Dave. I did some measuring between the Airfix 4F, Bachmann 3F and Finecast 4F (mine's a very old example) center splasher the other day. I tried to get a dimension from the drawings in Loco Profiles but my scaling must have been off (is there a drawing in the book that gives the dimensions?). Unfortunately I lost my notes but I agree that the 3F is quite a long way off the true dimension although slightly smaller than the Airfix 4F. Even the Finecast dimensions are not spot on (I suppose because the kit was developed eons ago and was compromised to cater for wheels (or RTR chassis) available at the time). I think that the Roche drawing gives a fair idea of the true size of the splasher. Whether one does a model with cock on splashers or oversize, I suppose depends on the wheels chosen. I hope that Bachmann don't announce a 4F for 2012 - I am girding up my loins to build one. Still, even if they do, it's a fair bet the splashers will be oversize. Lovely etchings. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted March 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 9, 2012 I hope that Bachmann don't announce a 4F for 2012 - I am girding up my loins to build one. Still, even if they do, it's a fair bet the splashers will be oversize. ...and it will likely be just as boggley as the Hornby one, since Bachmann don't seem any more keen to bite the bullet of rearranging their standard mechanism than do Hornby. I'm convinced this is why Bachmann chose the 3F over the 4F in the first place: nice low pitched boiler to largely conceal the boggle. Dave, it's really good to see some data introduced into this debate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted March 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2012 Mind the chimney looks rather fine as well Yeah, but try as I might, I still can't find any photos of the real ones with two chimneys..... some crazy French experiment, perhaps?.... Very glad to hear the 3F chassis project is coming on, Dave, I'm holding out for one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Yeah, but try as I might, I still can't find any photos of the real ones with two chimneys..... some crazy French experiment, perhaps?.... Very glad to hear the 3F chassis project is coming on, Dave, I'm holding out for one! Oh, haven't you heard of the 3F rebuilt with the Crosti pre-heater boiler..... Okay, one chimney was only used for lighting up. Yours, TFIC, Dave Franks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45609 Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Oh, haven't you heard of the 3F rebuilt with the Crosti pre-heater boiler Tut....and here I was thinking that it was another Wardale experiment using a LemPor exhaust. I'm beginning to regret ordering the Ultrasacle drop in conversion wheelset now. Cheers....Morgan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 , the splashers are almost the same amount oversize as the 4F but not much has been said about them.... But as I've said elsewhere before, when you take into consideration the overscale axle play, up and down ( as well as side to side) in the chassis, the thickness in the plastic splasher cover, and the overscale wheel & flange dimensions - it's no wonder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 One thing about 00 gauge is it allows the flanges to be behind the splashers and not inside them. Another was to chose a slighly underscale diameter driving wheel to allow for overscale flanges. A slightly undersize wheel will not be noticed but an oversize splasher will. These tricks seem to have been forgotten over the years Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 One thing about 00 gauge is it allows the flanges to be behind the splashers and not inside them. Another was to chose a slighly underscale diameter driving wheel to allow for overscale flanges. A slightly undersize wheel will not be noticed but an oversize splasher will. These tricks seem to have been forgotten over the years That nice gemtleman who used to make locomotives for Pendon told me years ago to use the prototype wheel diameter as measured over the tread. Bernard Idiot. I mean flange not tread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Earlier, I mentioned that Brassmasters plan to do an Easi Chas for the 3F for conversion to EM or P4. In response to an email I sent to Brassmasters I was advised that Bachmann's change to 2.14mm dia axles is causing all manner of problems (to them, Ultrascale and Gibson). To cut a longish story short, the Easi Chas conversion to EM will preclude the re-use of the Bachmann wheels. Brassmasters approach is to use 1/8" bearings (and assume the builder procures new wheels) and for the builder to ream the gear to 1/8" dia (wince, cringe). Now I do have some 3/32" steel rod (2.36mm) and had the thought that I could use this by; A reaming the wheels and gear or, B finding someone with the equipment to turn the rod to 2.14mm. I notice that Ultrascale have an elegant solution...for a price: https://www.ultrasca...view/CAT007/506 Someone else mentioned that the 3F balance weights are wrong. Well, comparing my model to pictures, the center axle balance weights are ~180 degrees off, but the front and rear axles seem about right. Bachmann's coupling rod design seems a bit naff to me and the wheels would need some modification to accept replacement rods (I tried to fit some). On the whole, if one wants to convert to EM, replacing the wheels might well be the right choice. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iak Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Same for us P4 practitioners then... Nurse, the reaming tool please....................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I would have assumed that P4 practitioners will want better wheels anyway. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iak Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 But of course Mon. Its the reaming out one could do without... Then again having the right access to the right tool helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian777999 Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I have just received my LMS 3F in the mail today and I am running it in now. I notice that when you close couple the loco and tender that the wires between the loco and tender rub on the leading tender wheels. Shouldn't there be some sort of clip or plastic holder to hold the wires together and away from the wheels ? NOTE : This is the smoothest running loco I have ever purchased. Why can't they get all their locos to run like this ? It is a pity that the Bachmann 3F Jinty which arrived at the same time is not in the same class ; it is as rough as guts at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 The Bachmann 3F isn't perfect either, the splashers are almost the same amount oversize as the 4F but not much has been said about them.... Compared to proper prototype drawings (not Roche!) the splashers are 0.75mm oversize in 4mm scale. This is nowhere near the awful huge ones on the Airfix/Hornby 4F (the firbox of which is also @8" too short). The leading and center 3F splashers are also seperate plastic mouldings fitting into the Mazak footplate. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Has anyone noticed on the Brassmasters website photos of theier pre-production 3F Easichas have been added? Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Should be available by end of June I am told. I have one of these on order and the Ultrascale wheel pack. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
newport_rod Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I'm sorry if this question has been asked before (I searched but couldn't find anything), but is the Bachmann 3F correct, either as it is or with a degree of modification, for a Midland Railway loco? I know that there were various boiler changes and it's all rather a minefield. Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I'm sorry if this question has been asked before (I searched but couldn't find anything), but is the Bachmann 3F correct, either as it is or with a degree of modification, for a Midland Railway loco? I know that there were various boiler changes and it's all rather a minefield. Rod Rod, Yes it is acceptable for a late (@1922) one with a belpaire boiler, the tender is one of the last designs with a modified front and toolboxes. The washout plugs are more late LMS/BR as is the chimney (subtly different), but these are pretty minor differences to MR fittings. Oh and I can't remember if Ross Pop safety valves were ever fitted pre 1923, they were usually ramsbottom within a casing until mid 1930s. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
newport_rod Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Thanks Tony - Safety valve and Chimney are easily changeable - do any of the Gibson chimneys and their 'MR Ramsbottom safety valve open type' or 'MR Ramsbottom safety valve' cut the mustard? Regards Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Rod, The chimney is a Deeley 2 ft 3" and the safety valves are tall Ramsbottom ones with spring between and lever (curved) across the top. The 3Fs had both oval based and elongated (with integral whistle I think) back to the cab versions of Ramsbottom safety valve base. I can only see one in the Gibbo on-line catalogue. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
newport_rod Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Thanks for your help Tony Incidentally the Gibson catalogue numbers are these. 4M728 MR Ramsbottom safety valve open type 4M638 MR Ramsbottom safety valve For some reason 4M728 is separated from the rest. But of course what they look like is anyone's guess. Regards Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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