Will they ever restore the Oxenholme - Windermere service ?

[uax6]

It’s a shame that the electrification to Windermere has been abandoned, as this would be an ideal opportunity to take a total block and crack on with it....

 

Andy g

[Zomboid]

And an ideal route to do relatively cheaply like the Paisley canal line. Though that kind of thing needs a lot more planning...

[009 micro modeller]

Would that also make it easier to run as a self-contained branch? The St Albans Abbey branch was I think electrified to remove the need to bring a DMU from Bletchley that would then have to return there regularly to refuel.

[Zomboid]

Probably not, if the unit has toilets then it'll need regular emptying at a depot (unless an emptying facility were provided at one end of the branch, probably Oxenholme, but that will add cost).

[009 micro modeller]

Does the unit need to have toilets to run a 10 mile route though? I'm not sure what journey times are typically on this line.

[Zomboid]

Probably not, though I believe Northern's EMUs are going to be fitted with toilets, so be locking them out of use might not be a popular idea, especially if the stations don't have facilities.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I think the Windermere branch rationalisation co-incided with Carlisle resignalling. I certainly remember having something to do with provision of a remotely released single line staff at Oxenholme for One Train Working on the line.

At that time it was intended to work the branch as a captive shuttle for most of the day with one service going to Preston (I think it was) for fuel and servicing with a replacement unit coming out to take its place

Edited June 7, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[lmsforever]

Just watched a report on the line BBC News  people in Windemere are very unhappy with no trains and visitor numbers are down cannot understand the policy of Northern.Surely one train could have shuttled the line with drivers arriving on the cushions and changing shifts ,also a road tanker could refuel the unit.Surely this is a nobrainer or are Northern unable to think simply  if not they have no place on the railway network ,will they be the next one to be replaced by a government toc?

[Mike Storey]

Just watched a report on the line BBC News  people in Windemere are very unhappy with no trains and visitor numbers are down cannot understand the policy of Northern.Surely one train could have shuttled the line with drivers arriving on the cushions and changing shifts ,also a road tanker could refuel the unit.Surely this is a nobrainer or are Northern unable to think simply  if not they have no place on the railway network ,will they be the next one to be replaced by a government toc?

 

I think it has already been explained that providing a train or two is not the problem. It is the absence of available crews, whilst so many are being trained on the new trains and routes. It is not the TOC's fault that this training is still taking place. It is due to NR's upgrade programme being way behind programme (and thus not available for such training until months after it should have been), and that a key part of the upgrade is still not available, and NR only told the TOC that would be the case just a few months before the TT was due to commence.

 

So if we accept that there a finite number of crews available currently, which other of the very busy (much more busy than the Windermere route) service would you cut to serve the relatively lightly patronised Windermere route. Surely it's a no-brainer?

 

I am not suggesting that Northern Rail has been faultless, about how they have managed the inevitable disruption, but it is simply unfair to lay the majority, or all, of the blame in their lap.

[lmsforever]

But they should provide a service even if its a reduced one to an important destination given the bad road access to the Lakes ,the responce to this new timetable obviously has been ill thought through.People are paid to do a job and obviously they have not delivered be they Northern ,NR,or DFT of all these the DFT will never be investigated .I appreciate that crews have to be trained on new routes that is obvious for safety  but its not been managed properly I feel sorry for the passengers affected and also for staff trying to provide a service trust management are out and about.

[Reorte]

But they should provide a service even if its a reduced one to an important destination given the bad road access to the Lakes ,the responce to this new timetable obviously has been ill thought through.People are paid to do a job and obviously they have not delivered be they Northern ,NR,or DFT of all these the DFT will never be investigated .I appreciate that crews have to be trained on new routes that is obvious for safety  but its not been managed properly I feel sorry for the passengers affected and also for staff trying to provide a service trust management are out and about.

Since most of the trains shuttle back and forth there's probably not much way a reduced service could be provided without just having the train sit at one end doing nothing for a bit, and that wouldn't really save on crew.

[Zomboid]

They are providing a reduced service, it's just not running on rails.

[Wheatley]

Surely one train could have shuttled the line with drivers arriving on the cushions and changing shifts

Blackpool and Barrow depots provide the crews which is why (on the 'normal' timetable) every third service or so is extended to Preston or Lancaster. So to run even a basic shuttle that's at least 3 crews to cover the full service, all of whom could be more usefully employed at the moment on peak services in and out of Manchester.

 

It is a no-brainer - it's a resource-hungry service to operate in terms of crews and a very simple one to replace with a bus trundling up and down the A591. Units and fuel are not the issue.

[lmsforever]

But on the BBC News now there is a report live and people are truly fed up with Northern a chap from the lake boat company said that since Northern took over it has provided an awful service.The reporter said that Northern told him last night that its coming back on the 18th June but they are still formulating plans ,not very hopeful is it.The fact is the franchise cannot provide a service over much of its network  okay much is the fault of NR  but they still  are not free from blame.One person this morning  said that many many people in the lakes feel that they have been sacrificed by NR in no wires to Windemere ,this is what the public feel and its needs addressing now . 

[Sandpiper]

Just to expand on a few points that have come up.

 

The Windermere line is one train working with a train staff kept in a locked cabinet at Oxenholme when not in the possession of the driver. Whilst the branch train is merely shuttling up and down the branch the system requires no input from the signaller. The driver clears the signal protecting the branch by following the correct procedure for passing the staff through the staff instrument.

 

A couple of years ago, Network Rail spent what was probably a considerable amount of money remodeling the south end of Oxenholme station to reduce the amount of time taken for through trains to access and leave the branch. Down through trains can now clear the down WCML much earlier than before and although Up through trains still have to cross the Down WCML they can do so much more quickly. The class 195 units which should be working the line from December are 100mph capable units so from an operational point of view through services should not cause any significant timetabling issues. 

 

I haven't seen any figures for actual usage but based on interactions with many passengers over the years I personally believe there is sufficient demand for through services to Manchester Airport to make it worthwhile reintroducing them instead of making the line an entirely self contained operation. The Airport services were introduced by BR in the final few years before privatisation but the through services were gradually cut back during the TPE era as TPE took on additional routes and needed to use more of their class 185 units elsewhere. The units that currently work on the branch are serviced at either Barrow or Blackpool depots as there are no nearer facilities. Empty stock movements are kept to minimum by utilising the units for passenger services en route.  

 

The line is simply a ten mile long siding with no loops or other sidings. On the face of it, it sounds like a really simple route to electrify. It would however require some track realignment work at three or possibly four locations. The line was originally double track. Most of the overbridges are arched designs. At three of them the single line goes through one side of the arch where there is insufficient clearance for overhead wires. At a fourth bridge the line is slightly off centre so may not have adequate clearance for the wires but I do not know for sure. So electrification is not quite as simple as just putting up the wires although I do not know how significant a part of the overall cost the necessary track realignment would be.

 

Regarding toilet facilities, Oxenholme only has toilets on platform one which are inconvenient for Windermere passengers. Windermere has one toilet. Given the number of people crammed onto the service sometimes on weekends in the summer that probably isn't adequate without on board toilets. The three intermediate stations have no toilets. The journey time is around twenty minutes. Many of the people arriving at Windermere by train immediately join bus services outside the station for onward travel and the reverse applies to many southbound passengers. I personally think it appropriate to run trains with toilets on the line. There seems to be an increasing view by some train operating companies that toilets on trains are a luxury rather than a necessity. I personally disagree with that view.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Sandpiper

[HillsideDepot]

It is interesting how the current rail problems are being dealt with by the media. For sure, its not a good situation, but the media want someone's head for this and are firmly on the side of the "commuter" (the lazy journalist term for anyone travelling on a train).  

 

Contrast that with the "expert" who the BBC brought in to explain the IT problems TSB have been having, and the similar problem Visa had one weekend recently. Did they call for someone's head to roll? Were they firmly on the side of the consumer? No! The answer, apparently, is that we should all have two bank accounts, and cards from two providers, and are fools if we don't.

 

But Northern haven't shrugged their shoulders, bank style, and told Windermere passengers that they should carry a Stagecoach Explorer bus ticket along with their rail ticket, they are providing something. It might not be the usual level of service, it might not be enough, but they are doing something.

 

Anyone who suggests that, in the current situation, it makes sense to continue running the branch has little idea of scheduling. 

[Wheatley]

I haven't seen any figures for actual usage but based on interactions with many passengers over the years I personally believe there is sufficient demand for through services to Manchester Airport to make it worthwhile reintroducing them instead of making the line an entirely self contained operation.

Through services to MIA will be re-introduced from Dec 19 as part of Northern Connect.

[Reorte]

It seems that every time something large or new happens in transport there's a period of bad disruption but eventually it settles down, everyone just gets on with things, and it becomes largely forgotten. Remember Heathrow Terminal 5?

[Horsetan]

..... In these circumstances you have to wonder if it wouldn’t be better letting someone else have a go running it.

 

The Swiss.

[Covkid]

That it is even an option to cancel 100% of the trains on a line that runs in one of the most popular holiday areas in the UK at the start of the holiday season is disgraceful.

 

History shows that interruptions to services due to strikes in the bad old days of BR meant business was lost to the roads. There is already some evidence that the recent growth in passenger numbers had stopped or even gone into reverse. The current farce is likely to make that trend worse.

 

 

Attitudes have changed, so I don't think that sort of move will have the same effect as it once did. Roads were the great, wonderful future when BR was losing passengers to them, and the time of that view has passed. And considering the crowding it may be no bad thing growth has stopped (although is it matched by stalling in the growth of travel in general? Hopefully!)

 

So it looks bad but the people saying the self-contained nature of the line makes going to buses for a while seem like the best way of manage a shortage of currently usable resources sound convincing. It's a situation that they shouldn't have got in to in the first place, but given that it's happened is this the best way of dealing with it? Looks like it.

 

Roads still are the future which is proven by exactly this issue.

The chosen result has clearly been to withdraw all the trains and put passengers on road transport, initially for a period of two weeks.

I cannot recall an exact instance of this happening, and maybe the closest was the chronic shortage of rolling stock in Devon and Cornwall over a decade ago at the start ofthe FGW franchise, resulting in busttitution of some branches, although there were crew available.

 

So if it is acceptable to put passengers on buses in peak holiday season then may as well as tarmac over the formation and run dedicated buses between Oxenholme and Windermere.  but it actually stretches further than that.  AIUI the buses are running from Preston and Lancaster, so there isn't any attempt made to convey passengers on alternate TOC trains to Oxenholme (which must be quicker than road) then road them the four odd miles to Windermere.  There seems to a deliberate attempt not to travel the Windermere pax on alternate trains, because it allegedly would inconvenience them.

 

How may of you would rather catch a Virgin or TPE train Preston - Oxenholme than transfer to a bus for the last four miles, or would you rather a bus from Preston ?     

[great central]

Roads still are the future which is proven by exactly this issue.

The chosen result has clearly been to withdraw all the trains and put passengers on road transport, initially for a period of two weeks.

I cannot recall an exact instance of this happening, and maybe the closest was the chronic shortage of rolling stock in Devon and Cornwall over a decade ago at the start ofthe FGW franchise, resulting in busttitution of some branches, although there were crew available.

 

So if it is acceptable to put passengers on buses in peak holiday season then may as well as tarmac over the formation and run dedicated buses between Oxenholme and Windermere. but it actually stretches further than that. AIUI the buses are running from Preston and Lancaster, so there isn't any attempt made to convey passengers on alternate TOC trains to Oxenholme (which must be quicker than road) then road them the four odd miles to Windermere. There seems to a deliberate attempt not to travel the Windermere pax on alternate trains, because it allegedly would inconvenience them.

 

How may of you would rather catch a Virgin or TPE train Preston - Oxenholme than transfer to a bus for the last four miles, or would you rather a bus from Preston ?

Around the turn of the century when there were still class 37s and MK2s running on the north Wales coast, for some reason I can't now remember, possibly to do with water in axleboxes(?), Virgin weren't running their services to Holyhead.

They provided a bus replacement along the A55 which resulted in people missing ferry connections.

I understand they weren't allowed by 'the system' to ask North Western Trains to take the passengers instead although the NWT service was timed to meet the ferry and, being hauled stock, could possibly have had a carriage or two added to cope

[pete_mcfarlane]

But on the BBC News now there is a report live and people are truly fed up with Northern a chap from the lake boat company said that since Northern took over it has provided an awful service.

Well yes, the reporter was hardly going to 'find' people who weren't angry about the situation. 

[Covkid]

When the TPE franchise was originally set up in 2004 it included services from Manchester Airport to Barrow and Windermere. Manchester to Blackpool services were added later, and later still Manchester to Glasgow and Edinburgh services. That original TPE franchise finally came up for renewal in 2016 after having been extended a couple of times. The DfT felt that the services from Manchester to Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere didn't really fit within the TPE franchise so moved those service groups to the new Northern franchise. Both the Northern and TPE franchises were renewed at the same time in April 2016 to make the exchange relatively straightforward. Note that the services weren't moved from one company to another, they were moved from one franchise to another and when that decision was made it was not known which company would win the bid to run the franchise. Sometimes it is important to separate the franchises from the companies that run the franchises. They are not the same thing which is a bit confusing.

 

With regard to the number of units, only one would be required for a self contained service and the unit could be worked empty to and from either Barrow or Blackpool for servicing. However there would be no one available to crew it as Northern have decided to utilise the crews elsewhere as a temporary measure. The Windermere branch can be run relatively easily in the short term by replacement buses as it more a less a self contained service making it easier to manage the alternative resources.

 

The problems within the Northern franchise at present are a result of a number of complicated factors involving government policy, the DfT, Network Rail and Northern. The situation is undoubtedly a mess and needs resolving as soon as possible. The temporary loss of rail services to Windermere is a consequence of that mess rather than an isolated issue, but laying all the blame at the door of one individual player is not entirely fair. All the participants need to work hard to get it sorted, not just on the Windermere line but right across the Northern network. 

 

 

I would like to put a slightly alternative slant on "Sandpipers" words which I do agree with

IMHO the DfT have dlily dallied with the TPE franchise pretty much from day 1. They brought the heaviest DMUs ever over from Germany - so heavy in terms of axleweight that they have speed restrictions governing use on some routes. There were pricing issues with the purchase and Siemens pinned the DfT down to a minimum number order. Industry thinkers suggested that the units were too overspecced but really needed augmenting from three power cars to three powercars and a trailer. In the end the dfT ordered 51 units - one for than the 50 minimum order stipulated by the builder, and still not enough units to operate the projected TPE service.

 

Because of insufficient trains to operate the service DfT ended up switching other fleets around and cobbled together a group of class 170s to join TPE. This meant of course that the brand new franchise had to dual train it's staff (both ops and maintenance) on 170 and 185, although to be fair the 170s were geographically limited in operation. Arrangements had been made presumably by DfT to procure the hire of drivers from Freightliner to operate some northern TPE services and as far as I know that hire continued for the whole duration ofthe TPE franchise, and probably still does.

 

DfT seem to have an impossible job in managing franchise timetables and TPE was a classic. Even though it was supposed to be a fixed term, DfT extended it more than once and it was this that saw the loss of the TPE 170s. It is believed that DfT didn't maintain a sufficiently robust dialogue with the TPE class 170 fleet owners over franchise extensions and Chiltern were needing more DMUs to extend the service from Bicester to Oxford. Chiltern did a deal with the Rosco for when the TPE hire originally ended, and subsequently picked up the hire of the TPE 170/2s which became Chiltern 168/3s.  This left DfT in a hole because they were now short of a DMU fleet due to extensions of franchise timetable.

 

To fill the breach DfT rearranged franchised services by shipping Northern 156s from Cumbria to the Manchester area to cover TPE work, releasing TPE 185s to work the former 170 duties. To fill the hole in Cumbria DfT arranged for DRS to refurbish some Mk2 LHCS and fit some DBSOs with "English Electric" cab controls.  DRS put several 37/4s through the works as well as procuring a couple of preserved derelict wrecks from Cheddleton and putting those through Derby works at well over a million pounds each. Ironically, the month the second rebuilt "wreck" returned service, one of the Cumbrian class 37/4 diagrams was replaced by a pair of top and tail DRS 68s. This now apparently involves the diagrammed Northern drivers on the 37+DBSO circuit to travel "pass" o nthe train when it is driven by DRS drivers.

 

Much as the media are trying to paint Network Rail as the guilty party in the Windermere bustitution saga, I feel more detail should be understood.     

 

 I applaud "sandpiper" for his diplomacy and respect the fact that as a TOC employee his words need to be politically correct.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Covkid

[jjb1970]

I wonder how much of the adverse publicity and comment is the result of the railways depleting their reserves of goodwill and credibility over a number of years. I have to be honest and say that I know a lot of people with nothing positive to say about the railways after having been messed about for an extended period by the Southern debacle. I'd stress that I don't agree with them (personally I'm happy with the trains I use) but it'd be naïve to try and deny that there are good reasons why those who have had to rely on Southern and the other problem providers have a rather jaundiced view of railways nowadays. Things like the U-turn on electrification that resulted from NR's handling of the MML and GWML electrification programs haven't done anything for NR's reputation. The collapse of VTEC, the GTR and Northern problems are following other failings. What is interesting is that the wider public and media finally seem to be waking up that the real problems have been at DafT and to some extent NR and the old cliché of blaming rapacious and inept TOCs seems to be recognised as at best a gross simplification and in many cases very unfair and unwarranted. Confidence and perception are funny things as there is a tipping point effect, up to a certain point people tend to see things in a certain context and recognise that on the whole you can't judge a system by certain failures, once you go over a tipping point then suddenly everything is just more evidence to demonstrate that the system is rotten. For some I believe railways have gone over that tipping point, whether that is justified or not isn't really the point if people are convinced by their perceptions.

 

My own view is that overall the railways still provide a good service, but clearly the current problems shouldn't be happening and some of the reasons being put forward to explain them do indicate some worrying systemic issues. For all that, I tend to agree with Reorte in post 93, at some point things will settle down and after a while people move on and it adjust their views based on the improved performance. At some point they'll pass a tipping point in the other direction.

[Covkid]

I wonder how much of the adverse publicity and comment is the result of the railways depleting their reserves of goodwill and credibility over a number of years. I have to be honest and say that I know a lot of people with nothing positive to say about the railways after having been messed about for an extended period by the Southern debacle. I'd stress that I don't agree with them (personally I'm happy with the trains I use) but it'd be naïve to try and deny that there are good reasons why those who have had to rely on Southern and the other problem providers have a rather jaundiced view of railways nowadays. Things like the U-turn on electrification that resulted from NR's handling of the MML and GWML electrification programs haven't done anything for NR's reputation. The collapse of VTEC, the GTR and Northern problems are following other failings. What is interesting is that the wider public and media finally seem to be waking up that the real problems have been at DafT and to some extent NR and the old cliché of blaming rapacious and inept TOCs seems to be recognised as at best a gross simplification and in many cases very unfair and unwarranted. Confidence and perception are funny things as there is a tipping point effect, up to a certain point people tend to see things in a certain context and recognise that on the whole you can't judge a system by certain failures, once you go over a tipping point then suddenly everything is just more evidence to demonstrate that the system is rotten. For some I believe railways have gone over that tipping point, whether that is justified or not isn't really the point if people are convinced by their perceptions.

 

My own view is that overall the railways still provide a good service, but clearly the current problems shouldn't be happening and some of the reasons being put forward to explain them do indicate some worrying systemic issues. For all that, I tend to agree with Reorte in post 93, at some point things will settle down and after a while people move on and it adjust their views based on the improved performance. At some point they'll pass a tipping point in the other direction.

 

I agree "jjb".

 

The issues that dragged on with the GTR / Southern / Gatwick Express must have really ground the travelling public down, but I wonder just how many were actually aware (or actually cared) what the dispute was actually about. The fact that the franchise wasn't like the traditional rail franchise, and was actually really a management contract. The fact that ASLEF were taking strike action against DOO but had actually signed a letter to accept DOO back in 2011. The fact that both ASLEF and RMT were campaigning against DOO but then ASLEF stuck the knife in RMT and did a deal behind closed doors - which they really had to do anyway because it was already agreed. And so on.  

 

Not a lot of this was available to people unless they went searching for it.

 

More of concern to me is the frankly abysmal state Network Rail have descended into with issues like electrification schemes.  It is said that a pile of steelwork which should have formed the Bristol area OLE has been sold for scrap from a materials dump in Wiltshire.  If this is correct it is very very wrong. Most of us acknowledge that electric trains are the future, as they are all over the developed world. There should be a rolling programme of electrification around the country, so gantries and girders should be needed for the foreseeable future. What is the difference in cost between ordering new steel work from a specialist company like Furrer & Frey and selling steel for scrap ?