Will they ever restore the Oxenholme - Windermere service ?

[Joseph_Pestell]

 if the private rail operators have next to no freedom to run the franchise how they want, then the franchise system is a sham,

 

You've got it!

[Joseph_Pestell]

PMQs today, Mrs May (answering a question from an MP) said that the Govt would like to get to a system where trains and track are under the same control. So - more upheaval just to take us back to where we were 95 years ago.

[The Stationmaster]

PMQs today, Mrs May (answering a question from an MP) said that the Govt would like to get to a system where trains and track are under the same control. So - more upheaval just to take us back to where we were 95 years ago.

 

Did anybody ask her why the Govt wanted to do that I wonder?  Or indeed what advantages it might offer as it means either 100% nationalisation or 100% privatisation?

[APOLLO]

I have to take my twin girls from Wigan to Liverpool to view both Universities there next Friday & Saturday (22 & 23 June).

 

Lime St is closed with buses from Huyton. The other route Wigan - Kirby (change to an electric train) there is a mess with some trains cancelled, some bustitutions etc, a revised timetable is in effect on this line, and to cap it all Northern strike action on the Sat 23rd.

 

The Wigan-St Helens-Liverpool line was a jewel of "Northern" rail investment - newly electrified & decent refurbished 319 4 car trains, train every 30 mins minimum.

 

They put the fares up in January, revised timetables last week due to the current chaos and Lime St shut -with NO extra services etc on the Wigan to Kirby route  - indeed they have CUT those !!  A real mess. Can't complain re Lime St closure - it has been well advertised - but why no enhanced service on the Kirkby line ?.

 

I'll go by car and will book cheap subsidised (by the Universities for the visit days) parking in the City centre. It will be cheaper also, but I would have preferred to go by train.

 

The whole management of our railways is a complete and utter shambles. Yes I feel sorry for the poor sods on the ground who run the services, but the senior managers at Northern and politicians concerned can all go and rot in Hell.

 

Brit15

[jjb1970]

Did anybody ask her why the Govt wanted to do that I wonder? Or indeed what advantages it might offer as it means either 100% nationalisation or 100% privatisation?

I imagine that the goal will be 100% controlled by DafT but with somebody else to take 100% of the blame for anything unpopular. Not that I am cynical or anything.

[Reorte]

I imagine that the goal will be 100% controlled by DafT but with somebody else to take 100% of the blame for anything unpopular. Not that I am cynical or anything.

The Beardy One likes taking all the credit, so it's about time he had his turn taking all the blame.

[Horsetan]

PMQs today, Mrs May (answering a question from an MP) said that the Govt would like to get to a system where trains and track are under the same control. ...

 

So, er, nationalisation, then.

[phil-b259]

You can't have it both ways - if the private rail operators have next to no freedom to run the franchise how they want, then the franchise system is a sham

 

 

 

You have just answered your own question - well done for finally 'getting' what many others have been trying to point out for years.

 

 

yet you continually claim that the involvement of the private sector in the railways is wholly good.

 

 

Because IF the franchise process was applied properly then the outcomes for users would be better than what we have now.

 

With regard to franchising, no private sector company is going to splash the cash without a decent return being available. Its simply good business sense, but then you need to appreciate that railways are not groceries or consumer goods - with railway rolling stock normally lasting around 20 years before mid life overhauls and signalling schemes expected to last for 40 odd years its pretty obvious that best value only comes by looking long term. As an example consider Chiltern - a 20 year franchise gave the franchise owners the confidence to sink an awful lot of money into the franchise (e.g. the Mk3 'Mainline' brand) as well as the infrastructure (the various 'Evergreen' upgrades).

 

Alternatively you go down the TfL concession route where the private operator is simply fulling a management contract and all key decisions readily acknowledged to be made by a public sector body.

 

Personally I think the most suitable method would be for British Rail to still exist as a holding organisation and to tender out its operations like TfL do. You get private sector buy in but its also very clear that the state is in control of all key measures like fares. New trains could still be leased but on a long term basis by the state to help spread the cost. You could also get this British Rail organisation to bid for overseas franchises / concessions and earn money that way.

 

Infrastructure wise, I believe that it should be kept away from city investors - either in the form of a mutual society of some kind or as a stand alone subsidiary of the British Rail holding organisation outlined above.

 

 

I'm afraid after many years of experience I do not subscribe to your theory that just because somebody has done a job for years they are always right.

 

Its not about whether a job is done right - its about making sure you have all the facts before making assumptions. The point about talking note about what other contributors have said is that contrary to what the left wing press would have you believe many of the processes people are so critical of in todays 'privatised' railway still happened under the 'nationalised' British Rail.

 

 

To survive in the corporate world often what is needed is a thick skin and a brass neck. Wisdom is not essential,

 

I disagree. A person who tries to run things without the benefit of wisdom and relies on a thick skin / brass neck is basically a bully. If you are going to take a certain course of action you have a moral obligation to be wise as to the potential consequences and be able to address them.

 

 

whilst I read the comments of others on here, I do not treat them as gospel. They are just as likely to be partial or simply wrong, just in different ways.

 

Then please explain what you think is wrong about them. I have mentioned before I have far more time for people who quote supporting evidence rather than simply posting their opinions.

 

 

And being "fed up to the back teeth" does not entitle you to aggressively hector and insult other people's posts on here. I hope for your colleague's sake that you don't adopt a similar approach when you are work.

 

Actually I do sometimes (and have been pulled up for it on occasion). It is however a relatively common trait of those afflicted by Asperger's Syndrome and I am tired of keeping quiet (particularly on topics I feel strongly about) just to please normal people.

Edited June 13, 2018 by phil-b259

[locoholic]

That is simply untrue about French railways. Macron and Phillippe have both declared there is no intention of mass closures of routes (as they know this would be electorally unacceptable). They are looking for more efficient working from SNCF, and more localised decision-making to ensure the remaining routes are adequately maintained and operated, pending the imminent arrival of open passenger services competition and open access to the French network, one of the final bastions of monopoly state control. They are trying to stop the "temporary" closures by stealth, which turn out to be very long term in many cases, that have been occurring, due to the huge maintenance and renewal backlog.

Well of course if M. Macron says he won't close railway lines, it must be true. Politicians never lie, not even French ones...

 

And what you say he wants sounds very similar to what has been imposed on the UK rail network. What could possibly go wrong?!

[phil-b259]

You are ignoring the fact that TOCs don’t have to bid for rail franchises if they think the terms are unworkable. After they know the terms better than anyone. To take on a contract knowing from the previous form of the DfT and/or NR that what they are supposed to deliver will probably be impossible is entirely down to them.

 

When Ariva bid for the Northern contract that bid was based on certain things being delivered by the Government (or its agencies). This included:-

 

(i)That NR would complete the electrification of key railway routes by specific dates, thus allowing plenty of time for rolling stock reshuffles and driver training to happen ready for the May timetable change.

 

(ii) That NR would comply with the requirements of its Network Licence (the thing that allows it to legally be the owner and operator of the UK railway network as per the Westminster approved legislation that privatised the UK railways) and provide a finalised copy of the timetable 12 weeks before it takes affect.

 

It doesn't take a genius to realise that if these key requirements were not delivered then problems would result and that Ariva is not liable for the results.

 

Its equally clear if the UK Government believed that these requirements could not be met then they should not have been included in the franchise agreement in the first place!

 

There is something very disturbing about calls to have HM Government exempt from the rule of law - if it signs a contract then HM Government is morally and legally bound to stick to it and take the wrap if it cannot. The fact the DfT is busy blaming everyone else is thus most unsatisfactory

 

 

This is not the first time the UK government has shafted potential operators though. Cast your mind back a few years to London Bridge and a key December timetable change which rapidly descended into chaos because NR timetable planners, under pressure from above tried to run more trains into the station than the infrastructure could cope with. While Southern got considerable flack for it, if you actually examine the facts it turns out HM Government (via NR) was largely to blame

Edited June 13, 2018 by phil-b259

[Mike Storey]

Well of course if M. Macron says he won't close railway lines, it must be true. Politicians never lie, not even French ones...

 

And what you say he wants sounds very similar to what has been imposed on the UK rail network. What could possibly go wrong?!

 

Thanks for your informed views, as ever.

 

Regional government here is far more powerful and effective than anything in the UK, including Scotland. They have seen how Germany do it, and have started to replicate it. In my own Region, the Regional President has been very clear about how the Region wants the plethora of "temporarily" closed branch lines dealt with. That demands guaranteed funds and power over how it is implemented, and that power and funding is imminent. Very different from the UK, where obviously it has the best way of doing anything, Not.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Did anybody ask her why the Govt wanted to do that I wonder?  Or indeed what advantages it might offer as it means either 100% nationalisation or 100% privatisation?

PMQs does not offer any opportunity for supplementary questions.

[locoholic]

Thanks for your informed views, as ever.

 

Regional government here is far more powerful and effective than anything in the UK, including Scotland. They have seen how Germany do it, and have started to replicate it. In my own Region, the Regional President has been very clear about how the Region wants the plethora of "temporarily" closed branch lines dealt with. That demands guaranteed funds and power over how it is implemented, and that power and funding is imminent. Very different from the UK, where obviously it has the best way of doing anything, Not.

Well, we'll see, won't we? Germany has the money to do these things properly. France does not.

[John_Hughes]

My experience of French rural bus services is that in very large areas of the country they simply don't exist at all, other than the school run - which may or may not take ordinary travellers, sometimes depending on whether or not in you're in good standing with the mairie.

 

Typically French, in other words!

[Joseph_Pestell]

My experience of French rural bus services is that in very large areas of the country they simply don't exist at all, other than the school run - which may or may not take ordinary travellers, sometimes depending on whether or not in you're in good standing with the mairie.

 

Typically French, in other words!

 

That used to be the case for many years for us (Languedoc Roussillon). But now we have a very good service, particularly in the P-O, with several buses a day to Perpignan and a flat fare of €1.

[The Stationmaster]

Or the French are going through what happened in the UK 50+ years ago. 

 

Which is of course more or less exactly what is happening along with several other very pertinent facts.  Although many rural lines have closed in France those which survive usually have atrocious train services organised more for the convenience of SNCF's outdated working practices rather than what intending passengers might want, resource utilisation only looks good in some parts of their fleet because of high single trip mileages - it certainly doesn't reflect efficient utilisation, organisationally SNCF has long been recognised as one of the most inefficient and bloated organisations in France which offers very little in return for the huge amounts of money it consumes.  

 

So any average French taxpayer who is even only half aware of the way SNCF does things is inevitably going to welcome rationalisation of managerial structures and employment conditions along with more efficient train operation - as Mike Storey has explained. above

[ColinK]

There may have been a train tonight, 37421/521 on a Carlisle - Barrow - Carnforth - Oxenholme - Windermere - Oxenholme - Blackpool working. But as the Windermere time is ‘no report’, I don’t know if it actually got to Windermere.

[cal.n]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/WDM/2018/06/17/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=WR

 

WCRC paths tomorrow. Seems to raise more questions than it answers.

 

Are Northern involved? Maybe it’s stock and crew hire (and this is training for such a service)?

 

Maybe it’s just someone’s bright idea at 10A? In which case, is it just run as a charter? This would mean tickets are not bought through any ATOC website (and TOC site, Trainline or National Rail Enquiries). Maybe just a case of buy on the day? I assume WCRC have the necessary infrastructure to provide a rail replacement bus if a train fails? Would they be required to do so if they provide a charter?

 

2018 on the Railways eh?

Edited June 16, 2018 by cal.n

[Sandpiper]

Presumably the class 37 hauled train mentioned above will have been one of the rail monitoring trains worked by Colas. Both class 37s seem to be Colas locos. I had a Colas driver route refreshing on the branch with me a couple of months back.

 

No idea what WCRC could be doing down there. RTT shows the train as class 5 empty coaching stock.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Sandpiper

[MatthewEWS]

From Facebook

[Rowsley17D]

 

Another photo here:

 

https://andrewstransport.smugmug.com/Northwesttrains/North-West-trains-2018/i-ww8NHPb

[Zomboid]

A political stunt, then...

[cal.n]

A political stunt, then...

 

I'm not sure, if it was it would be a very good one. But it carried passengers (and I assume took Northern tickets?).

 

Nice little video here

 

https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/1008347458425049088

 

I still can't work out if this is connected to Northern at all? If not, who's paying for this. WCRC? The line user group?

 

Also quite an interesting line in the tweet. 'We're now in a position where a shuttle service could be running from tomorrow- the ball is firmly in the DfT's court'. Not quite sure what this means.

 

Well done to everyone involved.

[The Stationmaster]

A political stunt, then...

 

Not necessarily (despite Mr Farron's presence) as it would appear that someone has put DafT on the spot by saying 'this is how it can be done in order to get trains running during the present crisis. now you give the go ahead'.

[rockershovel]

PMQs does not offer any opportunity for supplementary questions.

Point of order - MPs ask a “tabled” question, usually a stock question about the PMs engagements for the day. When the PM has responded, the MP may ask a further, untabled (and hence, previously unseen) question. MPs not selected to ask a question may ask supplementary questions at the Speakers discretion https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/business/questions/

 

In theory, this means that the PM might be asked absolutely anything, but in practice (since the PM has the option to play a “dead bat” by responding referring the question to the relevant Minister, and the Speaker has the option to rule a question “out of order”) there is an etiquette by which it is known, in general terms and sometimes fair amount of detail, what is likely to be asked and the PM is briefed accordingly.

Edited June 17, 2018 by rockershovel