Govia Thameslink 3rd new timetable in 2 months

[hayfield]

I see from a BBC report GTL have now issued a third new timetable in just 2 months, lets hope for once its both workable and as indicated additional services would be added

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-44823797

 

I certainly hope its a seed change by the company to put customers first for a change, especially after seeing the way their senior manager dealt with their customers on a carriage which was overcrowded. At a time when this company needed as much good PR as possible in my opinion he should have been inviting customers into that part of the carriage and that staff who travel for free should be expected to give up their seats to paying customers, let alone take up two seats.

 

 

The company then backed him up and criticised their customers, well in my opinion if this is their attitude something is very wrong, especially at a time when they are paying for adverts in the press apologizing for the continual bad performance they have provided their customers. Perhaps the rail regulator should step in with a list of requirements that must be met within a specific time, starting with customer care awareness courses for all levels of management, so they can be seen to be doing something, getting rid of 1st class compartments like others would also be a positive step, or at least until a decent level of service is achieved

[jjb1970]

The manager in first class thing was a self inflicted PR disaster, it is hard to feel any sympathy for them when they are that inept. They can't blame DafT or NR for that one.

Edited July 15, 2018 by jjb1970

[JJGraphics]

I see from a BBC report GTL have now issued a third new timetable in just 2 months, lets hope for once its both workable and as indicated additional services would be added

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-44823797

 

I certainly hope its a seed change by the company to put customers first for a change, especially after seeing the way their senior manager dealt with their customers on a carriage which was overcrowded. At a time when this company needed as much good PR as possible in my opinion he should have been inviting customers into that part of the carriage and that staff who travel for free should be expected to give up their seats to paying customers, let alone take up two seats.

 

 

The company then backed him up and criticised their customers, well in my opinion if this is their attitude something is very wrong, especially at a time when they are paying for adverts in the press apologizing for the continual bad performance they have provided their customers. Perhaps the rail regulator should step in with a list of requirements that must be met within a specific time, starting with customer care awareness courses for all levels of management, so they can be seen to be doing something, getting rid of 1st class compartments like others would also be a positive step, or at least until a decent level of service is achieved

 

 

 

To quote an old newspaper headline: "What a way to run a railway".

[jjb1970]

I found the 1st class thing surprising as on LNWR (and LM before) it seems to be standard practice to declassify 1st if the train is overloaded and to refund 1st class passengers. I thought that was normal on such services.

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

.................... and that staff who travel for free should be expected to give up their seats to paying customers, let alone take up two seats.

 

 

 

Extract from the current Staff Travel Restrictions booklet put out by Rail Delivery Group

 

When travelling using your staff travel facilities, priority should be given to fare-paying passengers. Whenever possible, cardholders should travel on lightly-loaded trains. If a train is crowded, cardholders should allow fare-paying passengers to take seats.

[DY444]

I found the 1st class thing surprising as on LNWR (and LM before) it seems to be standard practice to declassify 1st if the train is overloaded and to refund 1st class passengers. I thought that was normal on such services.

 

Yes except the Southern train in question was not overloaded.  It was packed at the front but there were plenty of seats down the train.  Therefore those who were packed in at the front were there by choice so they could get a head start in the mad dash to the barriers.  The complainers were whinging on social media because they got found out trying it on.  Ok the GTR bloke wasn't very tactful but he was basically right - standard seats were available so you're not sitting in first class without paying the extra.  This social media mob rule mentality thing which seems to happen frequently now is a total disgrace and the worst kind of "me, me, me" exhibition of self-entitlement.

[Zomboid]

The facts do seem to bear out the GTR manager being in the right in that instance. On most other operators there would have been no real media attention paid to it.

[lmsforever]

Cannot understand why first class is on surburban services now,was on a LM service to Brum and they declassified first at Rugby due to overcrowding .Didnt bother me quoted booking reference and got money back thats all you do, no need to go on media and complain just use services supplied.

[hayfield]

Yes except the Southern train in question was not overloaded.  It was packed at the front but there were plenty of seats down the train.  Therefore those who were packed in at the front were there by choice so they could get a head start in the mad dash to the barriers.  The complainers were whinging on social media because they got found out trying it on.  Ok the GTR bloke wasn't very tactful but he was basically right - standard seats were available so you're not sitting in first class without paying the extra.  This social media mob rule mentality thing which seems to happen frequently now is a total disgrace and the worst kind of "me, me, me" exhibition of self-entitlement.

 

 

Under normal circumstances you would be correct to a point, but when this company continued charging extremely high fares and continually failing (their words not mine) to provide an acceptable level of service, initiative and customer care should have stepped in. A decent lever of customer care and PR would be for him to invite those standing to use the unoccupied seats

 

One reason they may wish to make a dash for the barriers is that the train was running late and they were getting grief from their employers about their timekeeping due to the erratic service being offered by said rail company? 

 

Now please answer this question. Did he have a ticket to use one or more free seats ?

[hayfield]

The facts do seem to bear out the GTR manager being in the right in that instance. On most other operators there would have been no real media attention paid to it.

 

 

It was a senior manager and one would have thought he would have his companies and his customers best interests in mind first especially as said company seemed unable to run a decent level of service

 

In the company I work for if a junior let alone a senior manager treated a customer(s) this way, they would be sanctioned even if he was right. The old customer service adage "the customer is always right" even when they are wrong.

 

A simple act of kindness goes a long way

[hayfield]

The manager in first class thing was a self inflicted PR disaster, it is hard to feel any sympathy for them when they are that inept. They can't blame DafT or NR for that one.

 

 

I think it was Douglas Bader who relayed what he was told by WW1 flying ace

 

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools

 

Personally if this is the way they treat their customers during a period of disruption, I think they should have their licence revoked. 

['CHARD]

The fact is, senior managers should also move with the times where their interaction with 'stakeholders' in a sensitized, highly charged and fast-moving era of social media and opinion-sharing is concerned.  Yes, the train was crowded, but a high-handed reaction as his seems to have been, was bound to cause uproar.  

 

People may not like social media, and its effects can be pernicious, but senior company representatives should receive training in how to represent their employer when they are in public and on duty.  If this guy had received such training, then I'd say he would be in line for a talking-to, whether you have limited patience with the passengers or not, this is an issue of reputational risk, and GoVia can do without such a thing right now.

[lmsforever]

Will the new time table actually work ?

[jjb1970]

Yes except the Southern train in question was not overloaded. It was packed at the front but there were plenty of seats down the train. Therefore those who were packed in at the front were there by choice so they could get a head start in the mad dash to the barriers. The complainers were whinging on social media because they got found out trying it on. Ok the GTR bloke wasn't very tactful but he was basically right - standard seats were available so you're not sitting in first class without paying the extra. This social media mob rule mentality thing which seems to happen frequently now is a total disgrace and the worst kind of "me, me, me" exhibition of self-entitlement.

As others have said, there is a context to this. The government, Network Rail and Govia have displayed a collective incompetence in the case of this route which has reduced the public perception of the route to the level of toxic sludge. I am the idiot in our office who tries to defend the railways but those colleagues I have who try to rely on this service now hate it. And I use the word hate advisedly, I am not talking the usual dissatisfaction but full on intense hatred. GTR are not responsible for the failures of DafT and NR but they can control their own public relations. Now maybe there is an "if the shoe fits then wear it" dynamic and they have just given up and accepted their toxic sludge image but it is a pretty poor effort. Whether social media is good or bad is irrelevant as it is a reality. Service companies now live or die based on on-line reviews and feedback. They invest an awful lot of effort in trying to keep such feedback positive and train staff to manage situations so as to minimise negative feedback. I have been made very aware of what the consequences could be if I embarrass my paymasters on social media. This whole incident just reeks of incompetent handling to reinforce the existing sense of utter incompetence around this franchise /management contract.

[hayfield]

As others have said, there is a context to this. The government, Network Rail and Govia have displayed a collective incompetence in the case of this route which has reduced the public perception of the route to the level of toxic sludge. I am the idiot in our office who tries to defend the railways but those colleagues I have who try to rely on this service now hate it. And I use the word hate advisedly, I am not talking the usual dissatisfaction but full on intense hatred. GTR are not responsible for the failures of DafT and NR but they can control their own public relations. Now maybe there is an "if the shoe fits then wear it" dynamic and they have just given up and accepted their toxic sludge image but it is a pretty poor effort. Whether social media is good or bad is irrelevant as it is a reality. Service companies now live or die based on on-line reviews and feedback. They invest an awful lot of effort in trying to keep such feedback positive and train staff to manage situations so as to minimise negative feedback. I have been made very aware of what the consequences could be if I embarrass my paymasters on social media. This whole incident just reeks of incompetent handling to reinforce the existing sense of utter incompetence around this franchise /management contract.

 

 

Well said, I do understand that the railway operators were perhapps forced into a bad situation, but rather than try and make the best of a bad job some seem to have fared far worse than others. Given the situation Govia are in, there are things they could have done to both assist their customers and give themselves a better public image. 

 

One thing comes to mind, are they trying to loose their franchise on purpose ?  Or is it just a situation of management not having any thoughts for their long suffering customers. 

 

If I sat in a busy carriage taking up 2 seats and a train manager (or what ever they are called these days) came along I expect he would be having stern words with me, that is if my fellow travellers would have allowed this to happen. Given the shear misery their customers have had to endure, after the response's the company should be made to re-train its staff in customer service standards, from the top downwards. Do what that American coffee company did. A public display of action to a perceived problem

[31A]

Being bored while the TV was full of football & tennis, I was watching these recently - Parliamentary Select Committees on Railway Timetable Changes and Railway Network Committee:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0b969j7/select-committees-railway-network-committee

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bb2qqc/select-committees-railway-timetable-changes-committee

 

Not sure whether they've been mentioned on here before but they give some very interesting background on recent difficulties.  The second one linked (Railway Timetable Changes) is just about Thameslink, with Chris Gibb and Chris Green being the witnesses.

[Foulounoux]

Cannot understand why first class is on surburban services now,was on a LM service to Brum and they declassified first at Rugby due to overcrowding .Didnt bother me quoted booking reference and got money back thats all you do, no need to go on media and complain just use services supplied.

I book first class on Southern when going by train from Havant to Gatwick. Simply because for a small premium I have somewhere to sit and put my bags when on a peak hour departure. As its only a section of a std coach it's certainly not for the normal first class privileges. Normally I fly from Heathrow as preferable to Chernobyl (LGW) and have a company driver as cheaper than mileage and parking

[caradoc]

Reported on the BBC News this morning that things seem to be going OK so (no doubt a major disappointment for the BBC and their doom and gloom outlook on the railways, and pretty much everything else).

[hayfield]

Being bored while the TV was full of football & tennis, I was watching these recently - Parliamentary Select Committees on Railway Timetable Changes and Railway Network Committee:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0b969j7/select-committees-railway-network-committee

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bb2qqc/select-committees-railway-timetable-changes-committee

 

Not sure whether they've been mentioned on here before but they give some very interesting background on recent difficulties.  The second one linked (Railway Timetable Changes) is just about Thameslink, with Chris Gibb and Chris Green being the witnesses.

 

 

Listened to the first bit of the first link, there seems to have been quite a bit of twoing and throwing between interested parties, however Govia seemed to have been confident up and to 3 weeks prior to the change over, and unless I misunderstood what was being said, it was the inability to change their drivers schedules quickly enough. Seems over reliance on their ability to cope with last minuet changes

 

Northern though needed a far greater lead time ?.  Had enough staff but seemed to not have a back up plan for certain items not being delivered on time !!. Seems not to have had a back up plan if both infrastructure and stock were delayed

 

Thanks for the link

[njee20]

The GTR manager was on a train arriving at midday, not a peak time service. It was overcrowded at the front only, as said. That the passengers wanted to cram into that space rather than have a seat further back is their prerogative and doesn't entitle them to a seat they've not paid for. Yes, maybe he could have been less of a pillock about it, but he was right. By extension you're basically saying Hayfield that because Southern get a lot of bad PR they should just let everyone sit in first class all the time?

 

We shall see if the 18.03 stops at Redhill tonight. It better bloody hadn't.

[hayfield]

Firstly I expect the train manager had not paid for his seat either, I assume he was using his ability to travel at no cost as I guess he was on a business trip, but how many seats is he allowed to use ? Or its not good PR for a member of staff to spread all his belongings over 2 seats and a table at such a miserable period for their customers. As I said the services provided after the failed implementation of the new timetable by GTR in failing to both train and plan for sufficient drivers to be rostered in time (as reported to the transport committee) were awful, GTR needed to to be far more understanding and generous to its beligured customers.

 

Overcrowding on any transport system is extremely dangerous and how all train companies get away with the daily is frightening, certainly other transport systems (cars, buses, plains, boats etc) cannot do this. On the safety side alone he should have done something about the overcrowding, especially as he is a senior company employee who is there to serve the companies customers and ensure their safety

 

As for the time of day, many may have been on business trips, having important meetings and if late could have more reason to be at the front of the train than an employee of the company which has caused the issues. Don't forget on the 4th of May GTL clearly stated they could run the new timetable al be it with a few cancellations. So in short they should have been falling over backwards to assist their beleaguered customers

[hayfield]

Listened to the first bit of the first link, there seems to have been quite a bit of twoing and throwing between interested parties, however Govia seemed to have been confident up and to 3 weeks prior to the change over, and unless I misunderstood what was being said, it was the inability to change their drivers schedules quickly enough. Seems over reliance on their ability to cope with last minuet changes

 

Northern though needed a far greater lead time ?.  Had enough staff but seemed to not have a back up plan for certain items not being delivered on time !!. Seems not to have had a back up plan if both infrastructure and stock were delayed

 

Thanks for the link

 

 

Now listened to the first part of the second link, real eye opener, To be quite honest looks like too many conflicting interests, bring back the big 4 !!!

[njee20]

So you agree then, that the "beleaguered customers" are fully entitled to use first class if they want? What if he was eating, should they be entitled to some of his food too?

[Revolution Ben]

Reported on the BBC News this morning that things seem to be going OK so (no doubt a major disappointment for the BBC and their doom and gloom outlook on the railways, and pretty much everything else).

Hi there,

 

I was part of the team involved in that coverage and I can assure you that there was no disappointment that there seems to be a discernible improvement.

 

Indeed, many staff (including me) use these trains and need them need them to be reliable and punctual!

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[Zomboid]

 

Overcrowding on any transport system is extremely dangerous and how all train companies get away with the daily is frightening, certainly other transport systems (cars, buses, plains, boats etc) cannot do this. On the safety side alone he should have done something about the overcrowding, especially as he is a senior company employee who is there to serve the companies customers and ensure their safety

 

The train was not overcrowded though, there were (reportedly) free standard class seats in other carriages. Trying to sit in first class without a valid ticket is fare dodging just like trying to travel without any form of ticket is.

 

If it were an overcrowded train then the rules may be relaxed, but if it's not then I see no reason to allow people to ignore the conditions of carriage that they signed up to when they bought their standard class ticket. Just because they want to travel in carriage 1/8 rather than 6/8 is not good enough.

 

What of people who paid for first class?