Why does the signature on a will need to be witnessed?

[Metr0Land]

Something's been puzzling me about wills.

 

Back in 2003 I was executor of my father's 2nd wife's estate.  When she changed her will for the last time, she was 84.  She had it witnessed by neighbours who were 87 and 89.  (I didn't know this until after she died).  Needless to say both the witnesses were dead before my father's 2nd wife died.

 

So my question 'what's the point?'  If you can't question the witnesses as to whether it really was signed by the person stated, and they can't testify to her mental health and the fact she wasn't under duress, then why have witnesses?

 

As it happens I had to pass the work to solicitors as I lived 120 miles distant.  They didn't give xxxx as to who the witness were or whether they were alive or dead.

[Gibbo675]

Something's been puzzling me about wills.

 

Back in 2003 I was executor of my father's 2nd wife's estate.  When she changed her will for the last time, she was 84.  She had it witnessed by neighbours who were 87 and 89.  (I didn't know this until after she died).  Needless to say both the witnesses were dead before my father's 2nd wife died.

 

So my question 'what's the point?'  If you can't question the witnesses as to whether it really was signed by the person stated, and they can't testify to her mental health and the fact she wasn't under duress, then why have witnesses?

 

As it happens I had to pass the work to solicitors as I lived 120 miles distant.  They didn't give xxxx as to who the witness were or whether they were alive or dead.

Hi There,

 

Because you are nothing other than property to be conveyed, all is explained below;

 

 

The main gist being the application of the Poor Laws via your Birth Certificate.

 

Enjoy,

 

Gibbo.

[Horsetan]

...So my question 'what's the point?'  If you can't question the witnesses as to whether it really was signed by the person stated, and they can't testify to her mental health and the fact she wasn't under duress, then why have witnesses?....

Because rules. The Wills Act 1837 requires it.

[RFS]

You also cannot be a witness to a will where you are a beneficiary from it. 

[Metr0Land]

Because rules. The Wills Act 1837 requires it.

 

Yes but does that act explain WHY it's needed?  I hope your answer isn't going to be 'on the clock'

Edited July 31, 2018 by Metr0Land

[Horsetan]

.. I hope your answer isn't going to be 'on the clock'

I'm rarely off the clock. At what postal address do you normally receive invoices?

[rockershovel]

.... because like much English law of the later eighteenth, and nineteenth centuries, it is about transparency and the avoidance of coercion, in the cause of maintaining the right of property, and particularly the transmission of property.

 

The marriage laws are a typical example. A couple being married MUST do various things; publish their intentions beforehand; assemble at a suitable public place; make individual declarations, individually and severally before a specified number of witnesses and with no one else near them; allow a specified pause for any person having a legitimate objection, to raise that objection. They may not refuse entry to any person having a legitimate right of entry to that place.

 

Wills are less elaborate, but the same principle applies. They must be made in the presence of a public official, suitably licensed; they must be witnessed by a specified number of persons who may not have an interest in the proceedings, financial or otherwise. The fact that those witnesses might be dead, senile or living in Australia if and when the will goes to probate, is not the issue.

Edited July 31, 2018 by rockershovel

[PaulRhB]

It's the signature saying it was genuine at the time that's important. If it is contested then the signature can be compared with others of those people even if now deceased, no doubt at huge expense , and see if fraud has been commited altering the will. If the signatures are deemed as fakes because they don't match then its possible someone has altered the will to their advantage, forging the originals.

You see these cases where a 'carer' family or 'friend' has tampered to inherit the estate.

[Metr0Land]

I'm rarely off the clock. At what postal address do you normally receive invoices?

 

Wormwood Scrubs Prison Wall by Simon, on Flickr

[Torper]

Up until 1995 in Scotland a holograph will (handwritten by the testator) was valid without the requirement for witnesses.  However, the Requirements of Writing Scotland Act 1995 changed that and since then witnesses have been required.  The Act was made prior to devolution, so it seem that as recently as 1995 the UK government took the view that it is essential that a will should be witnessed.  The Act does not say why!

 

DT

[Clive Mortimore]

I can die a happy man as I signed my will today. Our solicitor was strangely amused that wills would be a topic of discussion on a model railway forum.     

[Stubby47]

We made our wills some 30+ years ago, on advice from the solicitor handling our house purchase.  They've been amended, as we've had the children, and probably need amending now they are all over 18.

 

One interesting fact was that if SWMBO & I die together, I legally die first, so my part of the will becomes active (all to SWMBO), then legally she dies, so the rest of the will becomes active (to the kids, etc). 

 

It seems strange to me that folk don't make the effort to help their loved ones after they're gone.

 

Speaking of Wills and the need for them, I'm off into Camborne at lunchtime...

[Horsetan]

….seems strange to me that folk don't make the effort to help their loved ones after they're gone....

 

Perhaps they've been helping them all their lives....

[Metr0Land]

I can die a happy man as I signed my will today. Our solicitor was strangely amused that wills would be a topic of discussion on a model railway forum.   

 

I guess anything that keeps us away from the Oxford Dean Goods has to be a good thing

[brigo]

Wills are less elaborate, but the same principle applies. They must be made in the presence of a public official, suitably licensed; they must be witnessed by a specified number of persons who may not have an interest in the proceedings, financial or otherwise. The fact that those witnesses might be dead, senile or living in Australia if and when the will goes to probate, is not the issue.

 

A will does not have to be made in the presence of a public official. Anyone can write their own will and have it witnessed by a couple of friends or neighbours as long as they are not beneficiaries. Obviously you need to be careful how it is worded to avoid misinterpretations and if you don't feel up to it or it is complicated then use professional advice.

 

Currently sorting probate for my late brother who didn't make a will meaning I became his sole heir. I intend making a Deed of Variation to give some of his estate to my children, but I can find no information if that needs to be witnessed.

 

Brian

[rockershovel]

A will does not have to be made in the presence of a public official. Anyone can write their own will and have it witnessed by a couple of friends or neighbours as long as they are not beneficiaries...

 

Brian

Correct, to my considerable surprise.

[ejstubbs]

Currently sorting probate for my late brother who didn't make a will meaning I became his sole heir. I intend making a Deed of Variation to give some of his estate to my children, but I can find no information if that needs to be witnessed.

 

Why do you need a Deed of Variation?  Once you have inherited the money, isn't it up to you to do with as you choose?

[brigo]

Why do you need a Deed of Variation?  Once you have inherited the money, isn't it up to you to do with as you choose?

 

A Deed of Variation allows me to give some of the estate directly to my children. It does not become part of my estate and therefore is not subject to inheritance tax when I die.

 

If I inherit it and then give it to my children I will have to live for at least 7 years to avoid the inheritance tax.

 

Brian

Edited August 1, 2018 by brigo

[Stubby47]

One interesting fact was that if SWMBO & I die together, I legally die first, so my part of the will becomes active (all to SWMBO), then legally she dies, so the rest of the will becomes active (to the kids, etc). 

 

 

 

 

If I inherit it and then give it to my children I will have to live for at least 7 years to avoid the inheritance tax.

 

 

Oh.

 

That's a cause for concern...

[Metr0Land]

A Deed of Variation allows me to give some of the estate directly to my children. It does not become part of my estate and therefore is not subject to inheritance tax when I die.

 

If I inherit it and then give it to my children I will have to live for at least 7 years to avoid the inheritance tax.

 

Brian

 

IIRC you can give them each £3,000 pa tax free - though of course you then have to think about how many of them, how much money in total, how many years before they get the full amount you want them to have.

[brigo]

IIRC you can give them each £3,000 pa tax free - though of course you then have to think about how many of them, how much money in total, how many years before they get the full amount you want them to have.

 

You're only allowed to give up to £3000 in any one year, but you are allowed to give as many gifts of £250 as you like, which to me seems a bit contradictory.

Information on this and the 7 year rule here

 

https://www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax/gifts

 

Brian

[BR60103]

Our lawyer started the wills with everything to the spouse provided (s)he survives by more than a short period of time. I think this is to cover things like both dieing in an accident.

[Metr0Land]

Our lawyer started the wills with everything to the spouse provided (s)he survives by more than a short period of time. I think this is to cover things like both dieing in an accident.

 

Indeed, my wife died last Wednesday and we had mirror-image wills.  The initial couple of clauses make the survivor the sole beneficiary and executor, which becomes fully operative after 30 days.  The rest of our wills then go into what happens to the estate should the other not survive.  In effect, if the survivor survives for a month, the wills are (hopefully) very simple in terms of applying for probate. 

[jjb1970]

You're only allowed to give up to £3000 in any one year, but you are allowed to give as many gifts of £250 as you like, which to me seems a bit contradictory.

Information on this and the 7 year rule here

 

https://www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax/gifts

 

Brian

 

I don't think there is much logic in the tax code, it is strewn with opportunities to use provisions to advantage. This is usually called "tax avoidance", said with an air of disdain when in fact it is nothing more than taking advantage of entirely legal provisions and which are perfectly legal.

[polybear]

One piece of advice I'll offer is to name family, friends etc. as Executors rather than appointing Solicitors or (horror) Banks.  It's not a hard process to act as Executor in most cases (with the exception of things such as Businesses, property overseas etc.) - it just takes time.  If the person requires legal assistance then he/she can then approach a Solicitor for advice accordingly, with the Estate picking up the tab.  However, if a Solicitor is appointed at the outset then expect a big bill - many charge a percentage of the value of the Estate, which includes the house etc.

 

One last point - death tends to bring out the worst in Family.  They'll all be climbing out of the woodwork for the biggest slice of cake they can lay their mitts on....sad, but often true.