British Gas service engineers, are they trying it on?

[LBRJ]

Really? As a former regulator (albeit in a different legal system and a different field), the difference between "should" and "must" in legally binding documents was always very relevant.

 

Isn't that where the term "where practicable" applied after the must (as so beloved of the Railway Rulebooks) originates from?

[polybear]

.....our electrical installation had to be brought up to today's standards......

 

So that'll be the cable colour change from Red/Black to Brown Blue then.  Would've made more sense to change flex back to red/black for Live & Neutral....

[Silver Sidelines]

The burners in boilers will 'lint' up over time which will gradually reduce efficiency (and possibly worse).  The 'lint' or debris should be vacuumed up at regular intervals, yearly depending on usage and local conditions.

 

Can anybody tell me just what is the point of having a gas boiler serviced anyway?

 

 

Natural gas is far from clean and airways, flues and jets will all need regular cleaning in much the same way as chimneys from open fires needed to be swept.

 

Regular servicing is about safety and efficiency.

 

Ray

[jcm@gwr]

Bit of a long winded story about BG 5* Cover.

I fitted an unvented cylinder as part of a loft conversion job, many moons ago.

 

A few years later, I get a call from the customer, problems with the hot water.

Now we all know how long, first thing in the morning, it takes for your kitchen

hot tap to actually get hot water. It's different for everyone, depending on their

system, but it tends to be fairly consistent on a day to day basis.

 

So, one morning, it suddenly takes twice as long, and keeps fluctuating from

hot to cold and back! He has 5* Cover, so calls BG,

1st engineer blames the thermostat on the cylinder (supposedly creating hot

& cold bands of water in said cylinder!).

2nd engineer says the pipework (flow & return) to cylinder is under-sized at

22mm, should be 28mm, to which the customer points out that they didn't

shrink overnight, engineer had to agree!.

3rd engineer spent more time on the phone to his boss saying he was confused!

After 2 more, he gave up and rang me, as I had installed the cylinder.

 

Firstly, I went to the bathroom (across the hall from the cyl) and checked the

basin hot, sure enough it was constantly fluctuating from hot to cold.Thinking

that it might be an air bubble problem, I shut off the hot and balanced cold from

the cylinder to do a 're-boot'. But I noticed that the tap was still running! Going

back into the bathroom I could hear 'water in pipe' noise (normally only heard

in other rooms). I checked the bath, and they had a bath shower/mixer with the

hose outlet capped off. I moved the lever from shower to bath, the basin stopped

and the bath started, and the problem had gone (new cleaner had moved the

lever and turned on the taps without realising it). The mains fed bath tap was

back-feeding into the hot system.

It took 5 BG engineers 5 days to not find or fix the problem, but did come up 

with some great b*llsh1t, it took me 15 mins (and a bit of luck).

 

Also, they (BG engineers) might be trained, and qualified, on gas work, and

flow and return pipework, but they haven't got a clue when it comes to waste

pipe. I've lost count of the number of jobs where there is a problem with flow

or blockages, and discovered that the engineer thought he could argue with

gravity!

 

Finally, with respect to BG's costing policy, my mate (qualified gas man, was 

Corgi, now GasSafe) was offered a contract by them. All they wanted was for

him to install the boiler and connect to existing pipework, he didn't have to do

anything else, 1 team brought all the materials to site, another tidied up and

took away the rubbish, this was 10 years ago and he was offered £600 a day!

[hayfield]

So that'll be the cable colour change from Red/Black to Brown Blue then.  Would've made more sense to change flex back to red/black for Live & Neutral....

 

 

The existing cables were kept as in good order, but other areas like linkes fire and CO2 alarms, changes to the earthing system additions to the fuse box etc. Most of these were needed for the new additions/modifications, but good to have both electrical and gas systems bought up to date, even if both were completely safe and working but a little extra protection always welcome

[phil-b259]

Can anybody tell me just what is the point of having a gas boiler serviced anyway?

 

 

 

Particularly when recent research from the Consumer association reveals that most of the persons doing the servicing either don't do it properly or even leave it in a far more dangerous condition than when they arrived!

 

Which? boiler engineers investigation

 

For the second year in a row, our hidden cameras have caught boiler engineers carrying out potentially dangerous gas work. We secretly recorded 10 engineers servicing a boiler. Six were from major brands - AA, British Gas, Corgi, Homeserve, Scottish Power and SSE - and four were independents. The results were shocking: Seven engineers failed to carry out the minimum legal checks. Four didn't fix the gas pressure that we deliberately set too high. One engineer fabricated test results on his paperwork. None fully followed the boiler manufacturer's servicing instructions. We also exposed engineers making potentially dangerous mistakes. These included not safely isolating the boiler from the electricity supply, not properly testing the safety device (which works to protect householders by shutting the boiler down if a flame isn’t present), letting gas temporarily hiss out into the room and not checking for leaks. Keep reading to find out the full results of our investigation and to download our free boiler servicing checklist. Our research We hid our cameras in a rented house, with an actor posing as the home’s owner. Once we had recorded our secret footage, we called in three highly qualified, independent gas experts to watch the film. They assessed each service against the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998, the boiler manufacturer’s servicing instructions and any extra customer promises made by the firm. And they found all of the engineers making mistakes. Our research took place in 2016.

 

Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/boilers/article/getting-the-best-boiler-service - Which?

 

 

Its all very well telling people to have theirs serviced every year but as an engineer myself, I am in no mind to employ someone to screw up the job.

Edited August 5, 2018 by phil-b259

[John Tomlinson]

Cars....

 

You are of course quite correct, perhaps extending to motor vehicles in general. 

 

We know as a statistical certainty that at least 1000 people each year will die on the roads in the UK, plus a whole lot more being injured.

 

Something of a paradox for a society that in other circumstances likes to think that it regards life as sacrosanct and beyond price.

 

John.

[Mark Saunders]

You are of course quite correct, perhaps extending to motor vehicles in general. 

 

We know as a statistical certainty that at least 1000 people each year will die on the roads in the UK, plus a whole lot more being injured.

 

Something of a paradox for a society that in other circumstances likes to think that it regards life as sacrosanct and beyond price.

 

John.

 

 

 "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." – Josef Stalin

[Silver Sidelines]

 Sadly true

 

The rot set in with British Gas when over the years the company employees have gradually been replaced with contractors rather the BG wage slaves!

 

Natural gas is a dangerous commodity.  At concentrations in air between 5 and 15 % it is highly flammable (explosive).  When burnt without a sufficient supply of oxygen, such as in a badly maintained appliance, carbon monoxide is produced which is both odourless and colourless and will kill at very low concentrations.  British Gas plc was far more efficient and certainly more safety conscious than a certain TV personalities made out in the 1980s and 90s.  In my view it is wrong to single out BG/Centrica.  They were /are the biggest publilc utility but the lack of service, use of untrained poorly experienced contractors I think is now spread across all of the gas and electric services - dare I say in the name of profit?

 

When I was at college we were taught economics based on Caircross - the economics of scale.  How is it more efficent to have dozens of white vans dashing around the countryside delivering parcels?  The same goes for the utilties - and I haven't touched on the railways.

 

Ray

Edited August 5, 2018 by Silver Sidelines

[ikks]

 Sadly true

 

 

Natural gas is a dangerous commodity.  At concentrations in air between 5 and 15 % it is highly flammable (explosive).  When burnt without a sufficient supply of oxygen, such as in a badly maintained appliance, carbon monoxide is produced which is both odourless and colourless and will kill at very low concentrations.  British Gas plc was far more efficient and certainly more safety conscious than a certain TV personalities made out in the 1980s and 90s.  In my view it is wrong to single out BG/Centrica.  They were /are the biggest publilc utility but the lack of service, use of untrained poorly experienced contractors I think is now spread across all of the gas and electric services - dare I say in the name of profit?

 

When I was at college we were taught economics based on Caircross - the economics of scale.  How is it more efficent to have dozens of white vans dashing around the countryside delivering parcels?  The same goes for the utilties - and I haven't touched on the railways.

 

Ray

I am going to go off topic, we had a security system installed by Chubb in Melbourne. expensive but we thought essential although our area was pretty much crime free, we moved in 2002 to a country area in South Oz and SWMBO down here on her own decided to get a similar system installed here. The cost of the system was much the same but the installation cost was massive. Anyway I wasn't here and it was done. The system was back to base, no phone call, alarm went off and out they came...........$150.00 for a huntsman spider walking across a sensor.

Happened a couple of times before I said NO...ring me first. Then had an issue with the system, a guy came out, couldn't fix it butill.....you guessed it $150.00, a couple of days later out came anothr tech, who after a short time told me a circuit board was f***cked, got to put in a new one, he said!........$700.00 later plus $150.00 for the service call. Anyway after he had disappeared I rang Chubb to ask why all these service charges for basically the one job. The answer was...........these people are not our employees. they are contractors solely responsible for charging and collecting. Chubb cannot accept any liability, sound familiar...........................my point is that this type of organisation(sound similar to BG) is best is possibly avoided!!

Mike

[Enterprisingwestern]

  BG/Centrica.  They were /are the biggest publilc utility but the lack of service, use of untrained poorly experienced contractors I think is now spread across all of the gas and electric services - dare I say in the name of profit?

 

 

Nail.

Head.

Hit.

 

Mike.

[blueeighties]

I've a feeling that (despite common belief) that as long as an individual carries out such works in a proper manner (follows the rules, correct techniques, workmanship etc) then it's legit so long as you're not doing it for any sort of payment/reward etc 

If you truly believe that is true, let me know your postcode so I can give it a wide berth.

Anyone who touches anything gas related in their own/families house without having proper industry credentials needs their head examining.

[Enterprisingwestern]

If you truly believe that is true, let me know your postcode so I can give it a wide berth.

Anyone who touches anything gas related in their own/families house without having proper industry credentials needs their head examining.

 

Probably does his own brain surgery too?

 

Mike.

[polybear]

If you truly believe that is true, let me know your postcode so I can give it a wide berth.

Anyone who touches anything gas related in their own/families house without having proper industry credentials needs their head examining.

 

No need......just expressing an understanding, not a personal practice......

Probably does his own brain surgery too?

 

Mike.

 

Got fed up waiting for the NHS

[57xx]

So, one morning, it suddenly takes twice as long, and keeps fluctuating from

hot to cold and back! He has 5* Cover, so calls BG,

1st engineer blames the thermostat on the cylinder (supposedly creating hot

& cold bands of water in said cylinder!).

2nd engineer says the pipework (flow & return) to cylinder is under-sized at

22mm, should be 28mm, to which the customer points out that they didn't

shrink overnight, engineer had to agree!.

3rd engineer spent more time on the phone to his boss saying he was confused!

After 2 more, he gave up and rang me, as I had installed the cylinder.

 

 

It's not just BG "engineers" that are full of it, when the pump on my boiler went I got in a local plumber heating "engineer" to replace it. He was very full of it, telling me all sorts of things that were obvious rubbish and eventually told me (after I watching him cross-thread one bolt...) the hex bolts on the pump were a special size and his hex key set cost him £100 and couldn't be bought by the public. After he'd replaced it but yet to fit the cover back on, he disappeared for 10 mins to take a phone call. So, knowing he was a billy bullsh*tter I popped open my toolbox, took out my hex keys to see what odd size is unavailable to mere mortals. Eyeballing the bolt, I nailed it first time and found the 5mm key fitted. That was the first and last time I used his services.

[jcm@gwr]

It's not just BG "engineers" that are full of it, when the pump on my boiler went I got in a local plumber heating "engineer" to replace it. He was very full of it, telling me all sorts of things that were obvious rubbish and eventually told me (after I watching him cross-thread one bolt...) the hex bolts on the pump were a special size and his hex key set cost him £100 and couldn't be bought by the public. After he'd replaced it but yet to fit the cover back on, he disappeared for 10 mins to take a phone call. So, knowing he was a billy bullsh*tter I popped open my toolbox, took out my hex keys to see what odd size is unavailable to mere mortals. Eyeballing the bolt, I nailed it first time and found the 5mm key fitted. That was the first and last time I used his services.

 

I have always had an 'open' policy, ie no trade secrets. I've no problem with customers

watching what I do, or even asking questions (which I'll happily answer). But I do get a

bit peeved when they 'sit on my shoulder' and tell me how to do it, if they're that clever,

they can bl@@dy well do it themselves!

 

Also, if it's a simple job, that will need doing again, I'll (try) and teach them how to do it

themselves. I'm not happy repeatedly charging for the same problem/job, it pays off in

the long run because they'll call me back for other work, and (hopefully) recommend 

me to others.

Edited August 6, 2018 by jcm@gwr

[hayfield]

I think there is a difference between a customer being interested in what the craftsman is doing and interfering. Last year a labourer working for a contractor on my house complained I was watching him, as it happened the work he carried out was all wrong and had to be re-done. Every other tradesmen were fine as basically I was the unpaid tea boy.

 

As far as I am concerned electrics is a no go area and if my memory is correct a qualified person either has to do or supervise/check all work . Plumbing is a different matter, as new products make working, but that is plumbing where there is no working with the gas part of the installations where qualified (and recommended) engineers should be employed. And in both cases safety certificates should be obtained and kept

[John Tomlinson]

I think there is a difference between a customer being interested in what the craftsman is doing and interfering. Last year a labourer working for a contractor on my house complained I was watching him, as it happened the work he carried out was all wrong and had to be re-done. Every other tradesmen were fine as basically I was the unpaid tea boy.

 

As far as I am concerned electrics is a no go area and if my memory is correct a qualified person either has to do or supervise/check all work . Plumbing is a different matter, as new products make working, but that is plumbing where there is no working with the gas part of the installations where qualified (and recommended) engineers should be employed. And in both cases safety certificates should be obtained and kept

 

People's attitudes vary in my experience.

 

My own approach is to have a chat when they arrive, often after I've made them a brew, and once they start I say something on the lines of "I'll leave you to it". Some people carry on chatting as they work, and make it clear they're glad for me to stay, others don't. As someone without a trade (I'm an accountant), I do value trying to understand what they're doing and how things work, and some conversations have been very informative.

 

John.

[jcm@gwr]

 

As far as I am concerned electrics is a no go area and if my memory is correct a qualified person either has to do or supervise/check all work . Plumbing is a different matter, as new products make working, but that is plumbing where there is no working with the gas part of the installations where qualified (and recommended) engineers should be employed. And in both cases safety certificates should be obtained and kept

 

I think the main difference between these trades, is the fact that with gas and electrics,

a mistake can kill!

Plumbing, on the other hand, is less of a killer, you would have to lie face down after a

leak, for a while, before you drowned! The same sort of principle applies to carpenters,

brickies, decorators, etc.

[Wheatley]

Our flue goes up the party wall of our semi adjacent to next door's flue, and both twist slightly to exit the ridge line about a foot apart just inside our respective boundaries, where the chimney stack would be if it were a proper house. Perfectly legal when built (1960s).

 

A couple of years ago we had a new gas fire fitted (not by BG), no issues. Last year we had a new combi-boiler fitted, and they had to get the supplier (Northern Gas Networks) out to do something or other with the gas pressure from the main as it was a bit low. While he was there the NGN bloke condemned the 3 yr old fire as the flue was less than the 1500mm (?) from the boundary now required by the current Regs and gave us a bit of paper saying we had to get it rectified. Apparently because he's seen it he has to do something about it which is fair enough. Once the boiler fitters had finished boiler fitting they tested it all again and gave us another bit of paper stating there was still nothing wrong with it and cancelling the first one. Happens all the time apparently.

 

My only contact with BG is our drains and plumbing call out, which they were brilliant at on the two occasions I've needed them. Largely because it's DynoRod who actually turn out.I wouldn't touch them again as a gas supplier if they were the only one in existance, I'd go all electric first.

[Reorte]

Had a new boiler fitted a couple of years ago and was told the pipe between the meter and the boiler was under spec and needed replacing too (leaving an unpleasant choice between ripping the walls out or having a pipe on the outside of the house). I didn't quibble with that one, seeing as the old boiler never worked terribly well and the under-spec pipe may well have been part of the problem. The question remains whether it was up to the standard of the time it was fitted.

 

Anyway gas and electrics (beyond the simplest things like changing a fuse) are areas I wouldn't want to touch with a ten foot pole myself. The downside is that means it's less worth trying to know a little, which means it's easier for chancer "professionals" to take the mick.

[Danemouth]

We had our old Baxi wall mounted boiler replaced by BG a couple of years ago. They had a special offer at the time - the boiler was free! However the replacement still cost us £2,500 in installation costs. Mind you the old boiler was 12kw and the new 30kw so the house heat quicker.

 

The boiler is in the kitchen but like Reorte the gas supply was run to it in 15mm pipe which had to be replaced with 22 mm pipe which they ran around the kitchen near the ceiling - this effectively disappeared when painted. A five core cable also had to be run to it. That's not the end of the story;

• For the first couple of weeks afterwards the motorised valves were welding their electrical contact for some reason. We have a maintenance contract so in the end they came and replaced all of the electrics, clock, thermostats, valves etc FOC
• The following winter we woke on several occasions to no heating and the boiler showing a fault code. I would restart the boiler and all would be well. A couple of engineer visits couldn't identify the fault, then an engineer came along and spotted it - when installing the boiler a bypass is required from the flow to return pipes so that the pump overrun works properly. He put six inches of 15mm pipe in the right place as the installer had failed to do so and Robert's your mother's brother!

Roll forward to last March and with that cold snap the outside condensate pipe froze. A kettle of lukewarm water and insulating the pipe with bubble wrap fixed that but it says something again about the original installation.

 

When BG came to service the system a couple of weeks ago I mentioned it and he gave me some proper lagging for it.

 

Dave

Edited August 6, 2018 by Danemouth

[Reorte]

Roll forward to last March and with that cold snap the outside condensate pipe froze. A kettle of lukewarm matter and insulating the pipe with bubble wrap fixed that but it says something again about the original installation.

My boiler's in the bathroom, the installer ran the condensate pipe into the toilet drainpipe so no risk of freezing (just as well since my house seems to be in a bit of a frost trap).

[hayfield]

My boiler's in the bathroom, the installer ran the condensate pipe into the toilet drainpipe so no risk of freezing (just as well since my house seems to be in a bit of a frost trap).

 

 

Our new boiler discharges into the soil pipe which is inside the house, so only a 4.5" internal wall had to be drilled through

[hayfield]

People's attitudes vary in my experience.

 

My own approach is to have a chat when they arrive, often after I've made them a brew, and once they start I say something on the lines of "I'll leave you to it". Some people carry on chatting as they work, and make it clear they're glad for me to stay, others don't. As someone without a trade (I'm an accountant), I do value trying to understand what they're doing and how things work, and some conversations have been very informative.

 

John.

 

 

John

 

You are quite right, and tradesmen do tend to give you signals if they want to be alone, which I respect. Anyway I have better things to do than watch anything which is mundane. On the other hand if you show genuine interest in a piece of work, normally the tradesman is happy to explain the process in hand, or just happy for a bit of company