British Gas service engineers, are they trying it on?

[Enterprisingwestern]

I've a feeling that (despite common belief) that as long as an individual carries out such works in a proper manner (follows the rules, correct techniques, workmanship etc) then it's legit so long as you're not doing it for any sort of payment/reward etc.

 

I suggest you have a quick read of this.

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/l56.pdf

 

Mike.

[NittenDormer]

Thanks everyone.

 

I have told him not to worry and we will have a second opinion; plus I am going to buy him a CO alarm and fit it near to the boiler cupboard just to be on the safe side.

 

be careful with carbon monoxide alarms, sometimes the constant beeping can give you a right headache.

[chris p bacon]

I've a feeling that (despite common belief) that as long as an individual carries out such works in a proper manner (follows the rules, correct techniques, workmanship etc) then it's legit so long as you're not doing it for any sort of payment/reward etc.

 

The OH had a B. Gas Service contract.  The engineer told her that parts for the back boiler (a Baxi Bermuda) were impossible to get and that she should look at a new boiler.  So I phoned Baxi and asked.  The guy at the other end (after he eventually stopped laughing) pointed out that the Boiler was pretty much their Pension Scheme - they'd sold so many and so many were still in service that parts disappearing was unlikely to happen anytime soon....

 

 

Incorrect for the first paragraph and Mike has answered it.

 

There's a reason they still produce spares for the Bermuda. . .they constantly break down. The heating engineer I use loves them, as they go wrong so often he reckons they're his pension. 

I had the Baxi Bahama (36kw) fitted initially, it lasted just 4 years and in that time had 2 repairs,  I then fitted a Vaillant Eco tech (38kw) which has run trouble free for 14 years.

[polybear]

Incorrect for the first paragraph and Mike has answered it.

 

There's a reason they still produce spares for the Bermuda. . .they constantly break down. The heating engineer I use loves them, as they go wrong so often he reckons they're his pension. 

I had the Baxi Bahama (36kw) fitted initially, it lasted just 4 years and in that time had 2 repairs,  I then fitted a Vaillant Eco tech (38kw) which has run trouble free for 14 years.

 

I've got a Baxi Bermuda.  Best thing since sliced bread.  For starters there's no Motherboard that goes t!ts just outside the warranty period......

Plus an Airing Cupboard, Copper Tank and Immersion Heater for those (very) rare events when things should go wrong.

[Enterprisingwestern]

I've got a Baxi Bermuda.  Best thing since sliced bread.  For starters there's no Motherboard that goes t!ts just outside the warranty period......

Plus an Airing Cupboard, Copper Tank and Immersion Heater for those (very) rare events when things should go wrong.

 

To me, and as an ex Gas Board apprenticed trained engineer, that's where the modern idea of ripping everything out and replacing it with something more modern and efficient falls apart.

Taking whole life environmental costs into account, which I know nobody ever does because it doesn't suit their argument, the world would be a better place if we all still had our original appliances. Modern technologies would have made them more efficient, (modified burners, better control systems etc), so devolopment in the efficiency side of things would have continued.

To go even further back, Potterton Diplomats with weep pilots and Horstmann mechanical clocks were even more bombproof.

 

Mike.

[chris p bacon]

I've got a Baxi Bermuda.  Best thing since sliced bread.  For starters there's no Motherboard that goes t!ts just outside the warranty period......

Plus an Airing Cupboard, Copper Tank and Immersion Heater for those (very) rare events when things should go wrong.

 

 

They're a simple boiler but extremely inefficient, my neighbour had hers replaced about 3-4 years ago (multiple leaks and the flue needed relining) and the new one heats the house in half the time and she reckons it took a third off her gas bill.

[Dunsignalling]

Can anybody tell me just what is the point of having a gas boiler serviced anyway?

 

I have a combi (Ferroli) that's been in about seven years, never been touched and hasn't missed a beat. System pressure needs topping up every 18 months or so, but that's just opening and shutting a couple of valves and well within my abilities. Intake and exhaust is through the wall and I do keep an eye on that for any damage or obstruction. I naturally have a CO alarm.

 

I'm a big believer in "if it ain't broke don't fix it" for anything except motor vehicles.

 

I live alone and, as I see it, the only risk I'm taking is being without heat/hot water for a while if/when it does eventually fail. If it lasts another four years or so, and isn't an easy fix when it does go wrong, I'll just replace it.

 

IMHO service contracts are as big a rip-off as extended warranties. One thing is absolutely certain, nobody from BG will ever be going anywhere near it.

 

John

[E3109]

Grandfather Rights.

That is all.

[hayfield]

Having recently extended and renovated our property our electrical installation had to be brought up to today's standards and whilst moving our boiler we had it changed. Both installations were not up to today's standards, but both were safe (like the house we sold where we had the electrics checked during the survey period) and serviceable. Yes its nice to be both up to date with all regulations, but especially with gas providing you have the system checked and kept to the service period requirements you are fine.

 

As for flues, at our previous house we had 2 new boilers, both times the flue regulations altered from the previous installation. Our new property the engineer was fascinated by our neighbours flu, which was totally over engineered/elaborate for the position it was sited. A case of the installer for what ever reason fitting a more elaborate system than required   

 

Looked into British Gas both at our last house and this one and found their prices in both cases to be extremely high when compared to prices charged by local central heating engineers. As it happens at our last house a neighbours son who was training to be a British Gas salesperson and politely asked about how much we paid and was quite open when he said he could never get close to the price we obtained

 

If asked I would always suggest you find a qualified engineer recommended by others, they do not have the overheads that large companies have, don't have sales targets pushed on them and their livelihood depends on the service they give their customers.  However the onus normally falls on the householder to arrange service calls, very important with gas.

 

As for electrics, its a great pity that there is no requirement for very old installations to be inspected, but we do not live in a nanny state

[E3109]

I've been considering binning BG for some time now, and looking at changing the burner elements for my combi boiler and gas hob in order to use bottled gas.

I know this is the norm in some other countries, I'd just like to ask if anyone on the forum has actually done this in the UK or Ireland.

 

Cheers

E3109

[chris p bacon]

I've been considering binning BG for some time now, and looking at changing the burner elements for my combi boiler and gas hob in order to use bottled gas.

I know this is the norm in some other countries, I'd just like to ask if anyone on the forum has actually done this in the UK or Ireland.

 

Cheers

E3109

 

 

Don't quote me but when I explored bottled/tank gas for a build (no main) it was a lot more than just changing burners as the boiler itself had quite a few different components.

 

Our usual heating engineer couldn't do it as he didn't have the correct accreditation for higher gas pressure systems.

[PatB]

That HSE document, at a first glance speed-read, doesn't seem to demand that a qualified professional does the work. It uses the term "should", with regard to actual qualifications/training, which is different, in law, from "must". It does state that those doing the work are required to have the necessary competence but does not seem overly prescriptive in what constitutes having that competence. It also specifically mentions DIYers and people doing favours without categorically forbidding them from fiddling.

 

Not that I have a dog in this particular fight anyway, being from another country and all, where there are very definitely prescriptive requirements on who can touch gas equipment. And a bunch of dangerously incompetent cowboys some of them are too.

[davefrk]

Our Baxi lasted from the 1970s till about 2010 with occasional visits for servicing and repairs, usually the thermocouple, in that time I only changed the pump, the timer clock and replaced the rad valves for stats. It eventually needed a new burner which was available but with planning the new kitchen we wanted to move the boiler to under the stairs. The new Worcester Bosch boiler cost half of what Scottish/British Gas wanted for the same unit but the install was about the same and the guys also put in some stub ends into the kitchen FOC ready for me to add a skirting board heater when I eventually did the kitchen refit. Running cost? About half what the old Baxi did. Always used a local recommended fitter.

 

Dave.

[Horsetan]

...Insurance companies are very good at lending you an umbrella and wanting it back when it rains.

 

OT, but isn't that their whole business model after all?

Edited August 4, 2018 by Horsetan

[Enterprisingwestern]

That HSE document, at a first glance speed-read, doesn't seem to demand that a qualified professional does the work. It uses the term "should", with regard to actual qualifications/training, which is different, in law, from "must". It does state that those doing the work are required to have the necessary competence but does not seem overly prescriptive in what constitutes having that competence. It also specifically mentions DIYers and people doing favours without categorically forbidding them from fiddling.

 

Not that I have a dog in this particular fight anyway, being from another country and all, where there are very definitely prescriptive requirements on who can touch gas equipment. And a bunch of dangerously incompetent cowboys some of them are too.

 

It really needs thoroughly reading and understanding, the guidance notes especially.

Arguing over the meaning of should doesn't stand up in court I can assure you.

 

Mike.

[hayfield]

I assume you had the boiler inspected and certified by an approved installer, otherwise you have contravened building regulations, and, if not, I'd check that your house insurance company are happy with the situation, and that's before you consider whether you've had it serviced each year and have the relative paperwork.

Insurance companies are very good at lending you an umbrella and wanting it back when it rains.

 

Mike.

 

 

Mike as for the first part of your advice I totally agree with you plus making sure you have the correct (and working) alarms installed 

 

Your second point are you talking about insurance or maintance contracts? Agreed they are similar but in other ways so different. 

 

Insurance is vital, maintance can be less expensive if you use a local tradesman

[Horsetan]

It really needs thoroughly reading and understanding, the guidance notes...

 

Guidance notes are precisely that. Not quite the same as a rule book.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Mike as for the first part of your advice I totally agree with you plus making sure you have the correct (and working) alarms installed 

 

Your second point are you talking about insurance or maintance contracts? Agreed they are similar but in other ways so different. 

 

Insurance is vital, maintance can be less expensive if you use a local tradesman

 

Not insurance, just competent certificated maintenance.

As an example, if the boiler causes a fire or an appreciable amount of damage, I have known insurance companies refuse to pay out as the problem is said to be self inflicted, whether or not specifically not having the boiler serviced contributed to the exact cause of the damage.

This was one of the reasons, amongst many others, that Landlord certification was introduced for tenanted properties.

 

Mike.

Guidance notes are precisely that. Not quite the same as a rule book.

 

Guidance for judges on how to interpret the rule book.

 

Mike.

[John Tomlinson]

Our experience with BG has generally been good in terms of service and maintenance.

 

They aren't particularly cheap for installation, or at any rate weren't 7 years ago when they quoted. Having grilled the chap about the make-up of his quote, there was a very significant mark-up on what were already quite generous cost allowances for labour and equipment.

 

We had one very bad experience over twenty years ago, when the engineer insisted to my wife (I was away for work) that our boiler was shot and needed replacing. We lived in a small block of flats and everyone elses worked fine, as apparently did ours. He rang her several times to press her to get a new one. We didn't, I dropped BG for a year and then went back to them. On our first inspection the guy found the boiler in perfect order! Having talked to people in the business, my suspicion is that the first engineer was looking for private work, having done a formal quote, he'd then have offered to do it himself at a weekend say for a lot less.

 

There's a general principle that new standards don't apply retrospectively to old installations. Think about it, everyone would be continually installing new kit if it did. So if BG serviced and signed off the system in earlier years, and the flue is unchanged, I don't see how they can condemn it now, unless the boiler itself has become defective, for example with emissions over the limits.

 

Lots of advice above about how to proceed, I'd start with the BG central office.

 

John. 

Edited August 4, 2018 by John Tomlinson

[Mark Saunders]

The rot set in with British Gas when over the years the company employees have gradually been replaced with contractors rather the BG wage slaves!

[hayfield]

Not insurance, just competent certificated maintenance.

As an example, if the boiler causes a fire or an appreciable amount of damage, I have known insurance companies refuse to pay out as the problem is said to be self inflicted, whether or not specifically not having the boiler serviced contributed to the exact cause of the damage.

This was one of the reasons, amongst many others, that Landlord certification was introduced for tenanted properties.

 

Mike.

 

Guidance for judges on how to interpret the rule book.

 

Mike.

 

 

Mike

 

A new one on me, I have always found with home insurance they look for reasons to pay, but then I have never gone for the cheapest option where house insurance is concerned. I have heard of some claims refused or payments reduced, normally due to reasons related to either false claiming or where the policy holder being negligent in one way or another which is why I always opt for accidental damage

 

Good point about keeping servicing reports though, which I guess proves you have acted correctly, and as a by product is good to show prospective buyers if you ever sell.  As for tenanted properties I have no experience   

[Enterprisingwestern]

There's a general principle that new standards don't apply retrospectively to old installations. Think about it, everyone would be continually installing new kit if it did. So if BG serviced and signed off the system in earlier years, and the flue is unchanged, I don't see how they can condemn it now, unless the boiler itself has become defective, for example with emissions over the limits.

 

Gas safety regulations, as indeed are most regulations I would imagine, are constantly evolving based on experiences and incidents.

Take as an example flues, an installation which may have been to an acceptable standard, say, 20 years ago, might recently have been found to have caused a death, probably the only one in the situation of the flue installation ever, but nonetheless a serious situation.

So, what to do?

1. Well, it was only a one off, nobody else has died, so we'll let it go, what's one life.

2. This is a serious situation with serious consequences and the ultimate aim is to prevent deaths, so look at the installation, amend the safety regs to suit, and upgrade all current installation to the safest standard possible.

I know which I prefer, having been involved in the aftermath. Dead bodies don't smell too good.

 

Mike.

[John Tomlinson]

Gas safety regulations, as indeed are most regulations I would imagine, are constantly evolving based on experiences and incidents.

Take as an example flues, an installation which may have been to an acceptable standard, say, 20 years ago, might recently have been found to have caused a death, probably the only one in the situation of the flue installation ever, but nonetheless a serious situation.

So, what to do?

1. Well, it was only a one off, nobody else has died, so we'll let it go, what's one life.

2. This is a serious situation with serious consequences and the ultimate aim is to prevent deaths, so look at the installation, amend the safety regs to suit, and upgrade all current installation to the safest standard possible.

I know which I prefer, having been involved in the aftermath. Dead bodies don't smell too good.

 

Mike.

 

Mike, the point I was trying to make is that in the great majority of cases, be it gas installation or general building regs, the introduction of a change doesn't usually trigger a requirement to change all existing installations. Hence, as pointed out by several contributors to this thread, the use of "not to current standards" as a reservation on many BG engineers reports. Otherwise there would be an impossible burden placed on users to continually upgrade their installations and indeed buildings generally.

 

Your point 2, which seems very much to be the exception, is that some flaw is discovered that is generally life threatening. In these cases, something is required to be done pronto, and an example would be the widely publicised cases of product recall, for example of tumble dryers that catch fire. No one is remotely suggesting that known causes of fatality on a general basis be tolerated and ignored.

 

John. 

Edited August 4, 2018 by John Tomlinson

[PatB]

 

Arguing over the meaning of should doesn't stand up in court I can assure you.

 

Mike.

 

Really? As a former regulator (albeit in a different legal system and a different field), the difference between "should" and "must" in legally binding documents was always very relevant.

[57xx]

No one is remotely suggesting that known causes of fatality on a general basis be tolerated and ignored.

 

Cars....