What is a layout worth?

[Dungrange]

I think the question here is whether the owners know what a sensible price would be and/or have other ways of selling it or if they are relying on the club (and Dungrange) to deal with it?

 

I'll start by confirming that I am not 'dealing with it'.  I am only a prospective purchaser and until the club was offered the chance to purchase the layout, I wasn't looking to buy a layout (and neither was the club).  The owner has sold the locomotives and other rolling stock, presumably to friends of his fathers, but has apparently been told by several people that the layout will be difficult to sell due to the size of the layout - the majority of people can't accommodate a layout that is 6.1 m (22') in length.  As such, he's not expecting a lot of money, but equally doesn't want to give it away and I don't think he really knows what a realistic price is.  He wasn't able to tell me whether it was a DC or a DCC layout. I only know it's DCC because he sent me a photograph of the controls in response to my initial query.  The problem is that I'm not sure what a realistic price is either.

 

Would anyone buy a 22 ft layout? The answer is yes, they have done in the past. That doesn't mean this one will sell but why not give it a try?

 

If I don't want to buy the layout, then I can suggest that to the seller.

 

Valuing a layout for sale is tricky. The uncomfortable truth is that you will be doing extremely well if you recover even half the cost of the materials that went into it.   

 

I am making a few of basic assumptions; that the modelling standard is high enough to be attractive to others, that the design makes it interesting to run and that everything on it is functioning. 

 

The first question to ask is; can it be removed from its present location without substantially affecting its potential for re-use in its entirety. Many cannot and therefore dismantling for component recovery and separate sale of locos, stock, controllers etc. becomes the only real option.

 

If it has been built to come apart without any worse damage than perhaps running a knife through board joins that have been disguised by light scenic covering. DCC is usually a plus point, as there's likely to be less wiring across baseboard joins (unless it was converted from analogue, of course.) Convenient multi-plug links are usually confined to exhibition layouts.

 

The next question to be faced is size and shape. That determines its viability to potential future owners. Space, or rather a shortage of it, is a universal bugbear in this hobby so the number of potential buyers for a layout will be inversely proportional to its size. Anything that's too large to fit in a typical domestic garage is probably "off the scale".

 

If one can't attract interest in the layout as a "going concern" there are dealers who buy layouts for dismantling and sale of the recovered materials/components. They don't pay a fortune simply because the cost of their time, transport etc. comes into the equation. Check the classified advert pages of the magazines for candidates. You clearly run a chance of a better offer from someone a few minutes away who can remove sections in his car rather than coming a hundred miles in a hired van.

 

Good luck, I'm very much afraid you will need it.

 

John

 

Given that I'm not the seller, I'll read this that I shouldn't be paying more than half the value of the materials used.  As far as I am aware, the layout could be removed and reused in its entirety if the purchaser has sufficient space.  Unfortunately, in my case, I don't have sufficient space so would only be able to erect part of the layout, such that what is currently a continuous run would become U shaped, which reduces its value to me.  However, I could retain the bit that doesn't fit to keep as a potential exhibition layout.  Whilst dealers may not pay much to break up a layout, it's probably not fair for me to offer the seller less than they may get from such dealers.  However, equally, I don't want to pay too much.  My wife's not particularly enthused that I may 'take' the layout, let along actually 'purchase' it!!!

 

I wonder if you could buy it for the club at a fair price. If nobody is interested it could be resold for a modest profit which then goes towards club funds, so it would benefit the club yet also get it off the owners' hands quickly as you suggest they seem to want.

 

In the 009 Society, which I am a member of, we have the second hand sales stand (and postal orders for members). The sales team often encourage the families of deceased members to sell their collection to them, as they will generally get a fairer price than if they sold to a dealer who might exploit the family's lack of knowledge of the true value (in this case purely financial of course) of model railway items.

 

As a club, we have in the past accepted stock from various estates, which a couple of members have then sold, either on E-bay or at swap meets on a commission basis.  However, the general feeling was that there was quite a bit of hassle for the roughly 15% that the club kept and obviously there would be more hassle trying to sell a layout without stock.  My question is really, 'what is that fair price?'

 

I sold an On30 layout on eBay. No one was more surprised than me but luckily it was a US narrow gauge being sold in the US. It was priced just on the original purchase price of the track, kits, scenic material, baseboard materials etc. I was not intending to include stock or the DCC controller but the nature of the enquiry to buy made it worthwhile to include two locos, a handful of wagons and the controller as the buyer wanted a turnkey running layout for his restaurant.....

 

This was the only serious enquiry and it was obvious that it was not from an enthusiast. He picked it up and took it halfway across the US.

 

As a yardstick it was an 8'x 4' oval with the scenic part being the front two feet. The buyer was intending to set it running each day when the restaurant was open. I've no idea how long this would last but recommended he contact a local club or enthusiast to maintain it. It fetched $1500.

 

I have no illusions that my modular P4 layout will go anywhere but the skip eventually, but my collection of kit built P4 locos and rolling stock I hope would go to a better home but even as a give away there are precious few P4 modellers over here!

 

It's interesting to hear that some layouts do sell on E-bay, although I think the point I take from your experience is that swift bidding is unlikely.  In the case of the layout that prompted this thread - I'd think it would only appeal to a railway modeller. 

[009 micro modeller]

Apologies if you've already said and I've missed it but what scale/gauge is the layout?

[Dungrange]

Apologies if you've already said and I've missed it but what scale/gauge is the layout?

 

The layout is 00, although, at the moment, I'm not quite clear what particular version of the 00 standards have been used in the construction.  Whilst it has been described to me as 'Fine Scale', I'm hoping that isn't the D0GA Fine standard, with a track gauge of 16.5 mm and a flangeway gap of 1.0 mm, as that requires 14.8 mm back-to-back dimensions.  If its what I think is termed commercial Fine (00-BF) then I may be interested.  I've arranged to go and see it on Saturday, so I'll take a check rail gauge and some stock that I know has a standard back-to-back dimension of 14.5 mm and see how well it runs.  A tape measure is also essential

 

I think I have uploaded three photographs that were sent to me and I have permission to post them on social media.  The stock shown isn't included, but I think give an idea as to size.

[Dungrange]

Whilst it may not be possible to cherry pick part of a layout, there may be the potential to buy it all then downsize it to fit the available space and salvage or just dispose of the rest.

 

That's sort of my thoughts.  I can't accommodate the whole layout anywhere in my house, but I'm wondering if I can convert the through station with relatively long platforms into a smaller terminus so that I could retain three-quarters of the layout.  That may constrain operation a bit, but I'm sure I could make some modifications at the other end to compensate.

 

I have managed to sell both past layouts for more than the cost of materials, some of the reasons that I think contributed were;

- They had been featured in a number of magazine articles

- They had been on the exhibition circuit so were known, I did the deal to sell Peafore Yard at an exhibition.

_They were equally suited to home and exhibition use.

- They were less than 8ft long so could fit in a spare room.

- They were both a commercial gauge (00) rather than a more niche gauge.

 

Size wise, smaller layouts command a higher price per length. Of the layouts I have sold, they sold between £500 and £1000 without stock. Offering to deliver is another useful negotiating tool, I delivered one to Manchester (from Bath) but combined with a business trip so 0 cost to me.

 

I don't think this layout has appeared in any magazine (although I could be wrong), I don't think it's been on the exhibition circuit (again, I could be wrong) and its considerably larger than 8' long, which is the problem.

[298]

Is it sectional, or at least built so a few strategic saw cuts could see it pulled apart for reassembly...? (It looks like some thought has gone into the legs and they may even be professionally made). If it is designed to come apart then it certainly looks worth saving, but if it is permanent then it'd be for salvage only with the slim chance that some originality could be kept after a time consuming rebuild.

 

I'd be interested to see how this develops...

Edited August 24, 2018 by 298

[south_tyne]

Ultimately a layout (as with anything) is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. However I would suggest that in the vast majority of cases it would be very difficult to cover the cost of the materials and, if you manage to do so, then you will have done well. As ever, it is very difficult to put a value on time and skills in a hobby such as this. Maybe model railways should be valued more highly in an artistic sense and in the creative world as a theatrical artform but normally a layout is simply something an individual or group has developed for their own enjoyment (play!!) which is sometimes shared with the public though an exhibition.

 

Waffle over but I think covering the rough cost of materials would be a realistic objective.....

[Dungrange]

Is it sectional, or at least built so a few strategic saw cuts could see it pulled apart for reassembly...? (It looks like some thought has gone into the legs and they may even be professionally made). If it is designed to come apart then it certainly looks worth saving, but if it is permanent then it'd be for salvage only with the slim chance that some originality could be kept after a time consuming rebuild.

 

I'd be interested to see how this develops...

 

Well, I went to see the layout that prompted this thread this morning and it is a very nice layout and as good as any I've seen on the exhibition circuit in Scotland.  It is sectional, although I measured one of the baseboards in the station throat at 2 m x 0.8 m, so not necessarily particularly portable - I wouldn't have been able to fit it in the back of my car.  Unfortunately, I discovered that what I was told was a 00 Fine Scale layout has in fact been built to either EM or P4 standards.  Having dropped one of my 00 coaches on the track for test running, it almost dropped right between the rails!!!  Picking up one of the owner's unboxed wagons and checking with my 14.5 mm back-to-back gauge indicated that the back-to-back dimension was 2 or 3 mm more and the wheels looked like P4 wheels to me.   As such, I'm not interested in acquiring the layout either personally or on behalf of my club.  If anyone is interested in a large P4 layout then please let me know - I took a few more photographs when I was there. 

[crompton 33]

Two members at the club have there Exhibition Layouts up for sale. One is P4 Epsom town . 

The 2nd one is N gauge Ensbourne It's 4;52 in on this video

If you need more details about these please  P/M me. Ensbourne is now sold. Edited September 4, 2018 by crompton 33

[newbryford]

Good value at the starting price.

 

Good value indeed - if you wan to get into EM quickly but it didn't sell - relisted for £100 lower.

[CloggyDog]

On 01/09/2018 at 22:50, newbryford said:

 

Good value indeed - if you wan to get into EM quickly but it didn't sell - relisted for £100 lower.

 

I see Reighton is now back on the market for £200/obo (less stock/controllers) 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184332817196

 

 

[The Johnster]

Privately owned layouts are personal (no sh*t, Sherlock).  They are constructed to personal taste to satisfy personal requirements and specifications, and to fit specific spaces.  The layout, the general form of it and the track plan I mean, is unlikely to be of any value to anyone else other than it's builder, and nobody is likely to have an ideally suitable space for it.  I personally would be reluctant to use secondhand track, especially turnouts, or secondhand point motors on a layout I was building unless I had good knowledge of their provenance and previous use. 

 

Club layouts are possibly less unsellable.  They are designed to be packed away and stored, and if they have been shown they will be familiar to some potential buyers.  I suspect that the best sellers on 'Bay are train set to trackmat plan layouts as starter layouts and xmas presents.  

 

The smaller the layout is, the more likely it is to be 'rehomed'.  It is heartbreaking, but nobody will want Cwmdimbath when I have shuffled off my mortal coil and it's destination is a skip.  Some of the stock may find new homes, but as they've all had some modelling done to improve them, this is moot!

 

Valuing a layout for sale is different to valuing it for insurance; for insurance you need to factor in the cost of replacing it by a professional layout builder should it be lost in a fire, flood, or other disaster.  You need to have it replaced, and can insure to indemnify yourself against that cost, but this has nothing to do with what you'd get if you sold it...

Edited June 19, 2020 by The Johnster

[RichardT]

9 hours ago, CloggyDog said:

 

I see Reighton is now back on the market for £200/obo (less stock/controllers) 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184332817196

 

 

Listed in the "N Gauge Layouts" section of eBay, which should be corrected if the seller wants to maximise his chances of a sale...

[Guest Half-full]

I sold a layout about 5 years back for a healthy amount of money, much more than I expected (£600 for an 8x2, no stock/control).  Material wise it probably cost me about £400 to produce, however if I applied costs to my time in making it, I wouldnt have broken even, nowhere near it.

 

 

[Jeff Smith]

It is very hard to price creative work.  Putting aside the material costs if you were to use a typical skilledl hourly rate of say £60 to £80 it would price a layout well out of proportion but if you write it off as all the pleasure you got from creating it then it is reasonable to just charge for material costs to help fund the next project.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Jeff Smith