The Acquired Wagons of British Railways by David Larkin

[D9012]

I’ll add, that none of this will put me off buying Mr. Larkin’s books - as no one else has done anything like them, they are invaluable.   
I was simply asking a question to understand some context.  

[cctransuk]

8 minutes ago, D9012 said:

Oh good grief

 

did I not say at the beginning that they are fantastic books?

 

You did - but then went on to detail what you perceived, apparently, as unacceptable errors.

 

Those of us who have responded in a mildly critical manner know that we could not hope to come anywhere close to publishing invaluable data in the way that David has done.

 

Only Allah / God is perfect!

 

CJI.

[chris p bacon]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

Only Allah / God is perfect!

No he's not, he's a very naughty boy.....

[D9012]

7 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

No he's not, he's a very naughty boy.....

Thank you Mr Bacon😂

[chris p bacon]

I will come to the defence of D9012 having known him since School days (Oh Jeez ,that's 50 years!) as well as being our club Chairman (although I didn't vote for him🤣) and say that he does carry out research for us within club and really appreciates Davids work. Although I will admit that I do ignore his research as it's nothing to do with the GN.  His one saving grace is that he doesn't come from Kempston... although Biggleswade isn't much better..and to compound it he's a Wycombe Wanderers fan.

 

Over my shoulder Sherrie is saying petrol, flames, fan,  but I've no idea what she's on about..

 

[Bucoops]

One observation - the written word makes it very hard to "read" emotion and inflection - I think this is perhaps just a mistunderstanding?

 

Kum by yah, anyone? 😇

[Butler Henderson]

A little bit of expansion in the descriptions would have benefited the latest edition; a number of wagons are described to some detail but that detail is exactly the same as a number of others leaving the reader no wiser to what the difference is between them. Also noted  I presume that dispite what many think of the GWR they didn't actuallly have Open Gods Wagons (page 99)

[chris p bacon]

44 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

I think this is perhaps just a mistunderstanding?

Just 5 minutes or the full half hour..

[hmrspaul]

On 15/10/2023 at 13:49, cctransuk said:

 

 

Such is the wealth of historical information available to us nowadays that some criticise when the specific minutae that they desire is not available; rather than being grateful for the tireless efforts of the authors.

 

CJI.

May I simply re-inforce this comment. David and me, separately, took an interest in wagons from the mid 1960s. There was nothing easily available whatsoever to guide. He talks of finding the old PT wagons surviving in nearby industrial sites, and being able to access Hoo Junction weekly to collect his pay packet. [For me it was one member of the Staines MRS, the wagon articles by Don Rowland and the West Herts Group]. Even British Goods Wagons Railway Book 1887 to Present Essery Rowland Steel wasn't produced until 1970. 

It astounds me how much David and some of our other colleagues have managed to find in the nooks and crannies of the very dispersed archives. But as is mentioned often, much of the information has been lost, either to bombs or the ever present skip. Even more amazing is how much effort he has made to make this information available, in various ways ever since the 1970s. An outstanding record of continual dedication.

 

Yes, he is not an academic. Neither is he well served by his editor which should have picked up many of the mistakes mentioned in the critiques on here. 

 

Paul Bartlett

Edited October 19, 2023 by hmrspaul

[D9012]

2 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

I will come to the defence of D9012 having known him since School days (Oh Jeez ,that's 50 years!) as well as being our club Chairman (although I didn't vote for him🤣) and say that he does carry out research for us within club and really appreciates Davids work. Although I will admit that I do ignore his research as it's nothing to do with the GN.  His one saving grace is that he doesn't come from Kempston... although Biggleswade isn't much better..and to compound it he's a Wycombe Wanderers fan.

 

Over my shoulder Sherrie is saying petrol, flames, fan,  but I've no idea what she's on about..

 

Thanks Dave.  That’s a almost a compliment 😂

[D9012]

25 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

May I simply re-inforce this comment. David and me, separately, took an interest in wagons from the mid 1960s. There was nothing easily available whatsoever to guide. He talks of finding the old PT wagons surviving in nearby industrial sites, and being able to access Hoo Junction weekly to collect his pay packet. [For me it was one member of the Staines MRS, the wagon articles by Don Rowland and the West Herts Group]. Even British Goods Wagons Railway Book 1887 to Present Essery Rowland Steel wasn't produced until 1970. 

It astounds me how much David and some of our other colleagues have managed to find in the nooks and crannies of the very dispersed archives. But as is mentioned often, much of the information has been lost, either to bombs or the ever present skip. Even more amazing is how much effort he has made to make this information available, in various ways ever since the 1970s. An outstanding record of continual dedication.

 

Yes, he is not an academic. Niether is he well served by his editor which should have been picked up many of the mistakes mentioned in the critiques on here. 

 

Paul Bartlett

Paul, your efforts and those of Mr Larkin and others should be celebrated and never underestimated.  In my earlier post I made the point the books are fantastic, and also that things can go wrong in any book.   There then came a lot of nonsense, which I won’t repeat.  
 

You say David is not an academic, which, if you don’t mind me saying, is doing him a slight disservice.   He may not be so by trade, but the extent of his services to railway history warrant a higher moniker

(and your own efforts aren’t half bad, either 😉😉😉)

 

 
 

[Not Jeremy]

I'd like to add my appreciation of what both David and Paul have done for our hobby.

 

It was David's wonderful Bradford Barton wagon books that quite probably really "turned me on" to wagons as a fascinating subject to both study and model, and I think that must be forty odd years ago. Even today they remain great works of reference that I find myself going back to and enjoying time and again.

 

David has both contributed to, and had published, numerous books in the intervening years, possibly culminating in the current series under discussion. I agree with Paul about the editing, but speaking as a publisher editing and checking is a vastly time consuming process, and as I was told by a printer of quality years ago; "Simon, no one has ever produced the perfect book".

 

The new WS book on siphons is pretty much ready to go to print, but despite extensive checking and editing, I remain very nervous of the mistakes that will pretty much inevitable make it into the finished book. I will have to bite the bullet and go to print soon though. Far better to have a book to criticise than no book on the subject, I suppose(!)

 

Which is why, I think, that questions or apparent criticisms (of books) can end up being a bit divisive, as in this thread. I can quite believe that questioners do not intend to cause upset, but do quite often find myself falling in to the "trap" of feeling a bit irritated by them. Also, quite a lot of us can be very "literal" and tend to miss out on subtlety, nuance and even humour, in which category I would include sarcasm, which is allegedly the lowest form of wit. I recently got myself into trouble on the new Peaks book thread on this count, and I am afraid I remain unrepentant regarding what I wrote.

 

I also think the Internet and the easy availability of so much information (often for nothing) has made this "problem", if such it be, worse.

 

Paul Bartlett has furnished us all with a truly mind blowing quantity of fascinating and high quality images of rolling stock. All viewable without charge and available in more detail for incredibly reasonable prices. I also happen to know (from direct experience) just how helpful and accommodating Paul is when the question of publication using his collection of images comes up.

 

He also produced, or helped produce, the utterly wonderful "Datafile" articles in the Model Railway Constructor all those years ago, and "the book" of course.

 

I could go on (I do apparently) but I'll stop now, by saying again how very grateful and appreciative I am of all of the efforts and endeavours of both David Larkin and Paul Bartlett.

 

Thank you both very much.

 

Simon

[Enterprisingwestern]

19 minutes ago, D9012 said:

Thanks Dave.  That’s a almost a compliment 😂

 

, and for a wood butcher, coherent!

 

Mike.

[Cwmtwrch]

1 hour ago, Not Jeremy said:

It was David's wonderful Bradford Barton wagon books that quite probably really "turned me on" to wagons as a fascinating subject to both study and model, and I think that must be forty odd years ago.

"BR Standard Freight Wagons" was published in 1975, Simon, so not far off 50 years ago. I bought all five of the series as they came out and still use them.

[hmrspaul]

16 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

 

 

David has both contributed to, and had published, numerous books in the intervening years, possibly culminating in the current series under discussion. I agree with Paul about the editing, but speaking as a publisher editing and checking is a vastly time consuming process, and as I was told by a printer of quality years ago; "Simon, no one has ever produced the perfect book".

 

 

Simon

Simon

Grateful for the kind comments by you and others. But I'm easily the laziest out of our little group - Trev Mann doing huge numbers of scale drawings by hand (we published 100 drawings in about 3 years via BR Wagons and the MRC Datafile) and with David Ratcliffe recording traffic flows big and small; Peter Fidczuk (his series in the Bachmann Collectors magazine would make a great (series of) books). All photographing in colour.  And far from least David Monk-Steel taking up the batten of finishing BR wagons - but in the detail now demanded by just a few of you and using electronics to ensure many drawings are published. And others who also do more than their bit - several on here. 

 

But, I don't agree the general defence of editorship. Yes, non of us have ever published anything without a fault we immediately pick up the moment we see it in print. But repetition of paragraphs, numbers with an extra digit - these are something that a technical editor should have picked up - indeed some may be the fault of the layout designer. It is just annoying that some on here condemn David for these. 

 

Some have also queried the price. I'll admit I was very surprised this series was being done as hard back books. I know books have become cheaper to produce (perhaps not so true since paper prices went up but for a while far less than we were paying for OPC and WS books in the 1980s). However, during my stint as Secretary of the HMRS we had discussions about hard back vers soft back publication - IIRC the first edition of Parkin's Mk 1 coaches had both and even in those days the cost to the HMRS was considerably different. 

 

Paul

[Stanley Melrose]

I'm married to a retired academic (Emeritus Professor) from a distant land who, while actively doing research at prestigious UK universities, published her research output extensively.  Her work is still quoted by many researchers today.  She has often commented on her amazement at the quality of research in arcane subjects carried out by UK hobbyists who are manifestly not academically qualified by formal examination.

 

Hats off to all who illuminate our hobby by their endeavours.

 

Stan

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, Stanley Melrose said:

She has often commented on her amazement at the quality of research in arcane subjects carried out by UK hobbyists who are manifestly not academically qualified by formal examination.

 

 

Stan

Many years ago some of us were of the opinion we should be recognised as industrial archaeologists by the academic community.

But be cautious, many of us are qualified by formal examination in our own fields. 

 

Paul

 

 

[Wheatley]

8 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Many years ago some of us were of the opinion we should be recognised as industrial archaeologists by the academic community.

But be cautious, many of us are qualified by formal examination in our own fields. 

 

Paul

 

 

You then run into the problem that even archaeologists don't all regard industrial archaeologists as archaeologists. 

 

Almost as likely a subject to start a fight in a room full of archaeologists as asking "So what about Time Team then ?".

 

I studied landscape archaeology so basically a geographer as far as the others were concerned lol. 

 

:-)

Edited October 17, 2023 by Wheatley

[C126]

Is there a 'Friends of Paul's Wagon photos' fund to which we may donate, if only to keep the lad in occasional beers as a thank you for all his hard work?  I am serious.

[Strathwood]

Should there be any readers on this forum who still wanted to complete their sets or to check up on specific wagon types, may I remind you these are what the fuss is all about. Volume 1 is presently out of print, but we do have stocks of these four in stock, before the referee gets involved again and someone gets sent to the sin bin...

 

https://strathwood.co.uk/products/the-acquired-wagons-of-british-railways-volume-2-all-steel-mineral-wagons-loco-coal-wagons?_pos=2&_psq=wagons&_ss=e&_v=1.0

 

https://strathwood.co.uk/products/the-acquired-wagons-of-british-railways-volume-3-13t-wooden-bodied-minerals-1923-rch-specification-all-types-including-coke-wagons?_pos=1&_psq=wagons&_ss=e&_v=1.0

 

 

 

https://strathwood.co.uk/products/the-acquired-wagons-of-british-railways-volume-4-due-in-22-april-2021?_pos=5&_psq=wagons&_ss=e&_v=1.0

 

 

https://strathwood.co.uk/products/the-acquired-wagons-of-british-railways-volume-5?_pos=4&_psq=wagons&_ss=e&_v=1.0

 

 

One final thought as a publisher and author, the moment you decide that your work is finally ready for print, and you take the plunge financially and with some courage to present and share your work to the public. This is the point a host of self-proclaimed experts' storm forward to question everything. Some are helpful, knowledgeable and most are pleasant and share their research willingly should there be a reprint, while others just like to beat their own chests and decry whatever they disagree with, either rightly or wrongly, and to seize their chance to make a full song and dance production of their grievances to you privately and publicly. 

 

But that is the joy of seeing your work in print.

 

I await the shower of brickbats that will be sent in my direction for sharing a few of the home truths here.

 

Ho hum...

 

Kevin

 

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, C126 said:

Is there a 'Friends of Paul's Wagon photos' fund to which we may donate, if only to keep the lad in occasional beers as a thank you for all his hard work?  I am serious.

Simply ordering a few downloads does it for me. But don't worry some of the manufacturer's do pay for downloads or use of photos, as also do some publishers. so the cost of the site is covered with some beer money left over. Which is used - I'm very partial to an American hopped citrus ale but do get annoyed by "session ales" of 5%ABV - as The Tap had last Thursday. Very short session if I drink those. 

 

Some manufacturer's also give the occasional freebie. My greatest pleasure is being able to pick up a model and say - Ah as at Eastleigh 15 November 1982  (the first Bachmann Queen Mary in full air brake, departmental green). I just wish I had some idea how many of my photos have been produced as models - far more than I'm aware of. 

 

As I have said earlier I'm lazy so have given up writing. I shouldn't but am happy to leave to the others. Reproduction fees in the magazines are useful amounts but this has driven up the expectation of  payment for books which can be very high (not least from a certain Crown Copyright archive - Crown copyright was developed to assist publication of government information, not control or prevent it - and I'll admit the one photo I've had published in an Attenborough BBC book gained my place of work enough to pay for the entire days work I did on the day I took that photo, including considerable travel - you won't find my name in the book. Perhaps not unreasonable as it was such common book many of you may well have it on your bookcase). Anyway, what is not so commonly realised is that the author is expected to pay these fees, not the publishers despite them making far far more from publication than an author ever does. Not helped by how cheap books are now and how short print runs. The publishers have all the power which is why I am critical that Crecy is not editing or presenting Dave L's work to the highest standards. 

 

Paul

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Talking of actually buying your pictures, (not wishing to blow my own trumpet , but I do), it doesn't half p!ss me off going round exhibitions and seeing "demonstrators" working from a watermarked version of Paul's photograph they have burgled from the internet, he's hardly charging a fortune!

 

Mike.

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, C126 said:

Is there a 'Friends of Paul's Wagon photos' fund to which we may donate, if only to keep the lad in occasional beers as a thank you for all his hard work?  I am serious.

Have you joined the Historical Model Railway Society?

 

That is how you can help financially. We have to have somewhere that will archive our records when we pass on. The HMRS is struggling for members - I suspect too much easily available information on the internet . To all of you PLEASE consider joining the HMRS - and don't overlook you will get the books at a useful discount. Members can now read the back pages of the Journal  on the website. The Historicals have always been considered to be the Historical Model Wagon Society - because wagons roamed the entire system it linked many different interests. So those back pages have a lot of information. 

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/

 

Paul

[Mark Saunders]

An example of what is in the PO registers and all of this had to be transcribed using paper and pencil, as until recent years and the advent of digital photography it was time consuming.

 

This is an easy one to read as many are in copperplate type script.

 

[C126]

2 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Have you joined the Historical Model Railway Society?

 

That is how you can help financially. We have to have somewhere that will archive our records when we pass on. The HMRS is struggling for members - I suspect too much easily available information on the internet . To all of you PLEASE consider joining the HMRS - and don't overlook you will get the books at a useful discount. Members can now read the back pages of the Journal  on the website. The Historicals have always been considered to be the Historical Model Wagon Society - because wagons roamed the entire system it linked many different interests. So those back pages have a lot of information. 

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/

 

Paul

 

@hmrspaul I am very glad to hear your web-site is on a sound financial footing; I feel guilty using it only for visual reference, unwilling to order prints for which I must then find storage space, and so contributing nothing financially.

 

If you would consider a new membership of H.M.R.S. a substitute, I am happy to oblige and support their and your good works.  So much for winding down my membership of organisations prior to retirement!  Thanks again; Neil.