End of Paddington - Birmingham direct.. Park Royal line to close

[bike2steam]

The Greenford service did at one time run to Ealing Broadway, and for some years through to Paddington, 

 

I'd've thought that in this day and age a service like that would cost more to run than what it brought in.

[brenn]

exactly i can't see how this service in anyway makes sense on cost grounds???

 

This is the exactly the type of route that should be given to a preservation group to run.....The driver look very bored on my trip

I'd've thought that in this day and age a service like that would cost more to run than what it brought in.

[adb968008]

exactly i can't see how this service in anyway makes sense on cost grounds???

 

This is the exactly the type of route that should be given to a preservation group to run.....The driver look very bored on my trip

Next saturday at 1015 your wish will come true..

First and probably last time a pannier tank will operate on the Greenford branch this century.

 

Outward.. 9466 + 3 coaches

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10932/2018/10/20/advanced

And..

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10934/2018/10/20/advanced

 

Return

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10935/2018/10/20/advanced

 

 

Ecs before and after

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10931/2018/10/20/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10936/2018/10/20/advanced

 

Pity they couldnt have run down to Paddington.

Edited October 13, 2018 by adb968008

[simon b]

Me...too...Well this turn out o be a magical misery tour!!.............I managed to get on the train with 2 minutes to spare and thought i get off at South Ruislip and head down to Greenford.....Well that would have worked if i hadn't found out to my horror that it was non stop to High Wycombe!!!....Then could only get a train to Marlybone and then back out to South Ruislip...then down to Greenford.....which i eventually got to at 230PM.....so grabbed a Greenford to West Eailing.....I cant see the point of the West Ealing service at all.....should go to Eailing Broadway or Paddington.

 

Here are some photos of the  day:)

 

Thanks G for traintimeline link as the guard would have charged me fro the HW leg

 

Brenn 

 

 

Was that you at the very back of the train? I thought I saw the guard going back and forth. 

 

The reason it run's non stop to Wycombe, is Chiltern use a Marylebone to High Wycombe ECS working to form the Paddington service.

 

IIRC the eventual plan is that Chiltern take over the Greenford branch service, but extend it to run from West Ealing to the bay at High Wycombe. The bay at Greenford will no longer be needed as it can only handle a short train, Chiltern will serve South Greenford station and then interchange with the central line at Ruislip. This will give Chiltern a direct interchange with Crossrail at West Ealing, Chiltern using platform 5 and a new platform 6 built on the old milk dock.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by simon b

[adb968008]

I'm a little confused because for Park Royal after that date, Realtime Trains is still showing 5V27 11.10 S. Ruislip-Padd and 5M29 11.45 Padd-High Wycombe

Apart from that it's showing two GWR ECS movements from Reading train care depot to Paddington and back as well as three passing freights and a daily freight to and from Park Royal Marcon. This is about the same as the pattern now. If the parly through there to Paddington and back is being transferred to West Ealing does that imply that the freight movements on the line through Park Royal are also ending?

 

As stated in post 1...

Only old oak to park royal is closing.

Marcon is serviced via Greenford.

The through service to Paddington adter this date is a class 5 working, its an ecs is runs as required, not daily. In reality its a placeholder, presumably incase of some objection forces its continuation. Until the line is actually severed.. Wandsworth Road to Ealing had a once a week service, which was actually a bus until common sense terminated it.

http://www.itv.com/news/london/story/2013-06-11/pointless-bus-on-final-journey/

As an fyi there are other ghosts that are active operational in the system in London, theres a 6am daily service from Wimbledon to Clapham junction, via the district line (non-stop) daily:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W13544/2018/10/15/advanced

time it right you could do the once daily Battersea Park to Wandsworth road on the same day too:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L89866/2018/10/15/advanced..

 

To think until recently you could travel from Wimbledon to High Wycombe, mostly by parliamentary trains.

Edited October 13, 2018 by adb968008

[Gwiwer]

If West Ealing to High Wycombe by-passes Greenford then a closure process would be needed unless one parliamentary replaced another and a single trip still ran into the bay.

 

In my experience most of those who use the service to Greenford do not interchange with the Central Line but use it as an origin / destination. Which implies that abandonment will cause some degree of inconvenience. And possible loss of precious traffic to the buses.

 

Chiltern have enough 2-car units that they could maintain the half-hourly branch service with one train each hour to Greenford (bay) and the other through Ruislip to Wycombe. Though I suspect neither is really what is needed locally by users of the Greenford line

[adb968008]

If West Ealing to High Wycombe by-passes Greenford then a closure process would be needed unless one parliamentary replaced another and a single trip still ran into the bay.

In my experience most of those who use the service to Greenford do not interchange with the Central Line but use it as an origin / destination. Which implies that abandonment will cause some degree of inconvenience. And possible loss of precious traffic to the buses.

Chiltern have enough 2-car units that they could maintain the half-hourly branch service with one train each hour to Greenford (bay) and the other through Ruislip to Wycombe. Though I suspect neither is really what is needed locally by users of the Greenford line

No stations are ceasing to be served, and No services are being lost.

Its a change of route.

Greenford has lost its Paddington direct services to one of a West Ruislip service.

South Ruislip was non-stop to Paddington, instead is to West Ruislip.

Both connect at West Ruislip to Paddington.

That it causes inconvienience is no relevance, the service is maintained (30 minutes shuttle to Greenford via Castle Bar Park, 1x daily to South Ruislip & High Wycombe).

It would be interesting to see passenger numbers on the Greenford line, now the journey takes 15 minutes longer and requires connections...i’d wager Greenford sees an increase in homebound Passengers from the Central line, given frequency of the central line..

 

Similary any passenger who may have used the 1x daily Paddington -High Wycombe will now probably use the Central line to South Ruislip instead and change there... proving that it is indeed possible to kill something that was already dead... which is why i dont believe it will ever come back in the future.

 

Is there a plan for an Old Oak Central line tube station ? - its running past the site already, runs upto Greenford, and South Ruislip and probably the most useful connection for those not in Zone 1..of course not, as Old Oaks only use case is Heathrow passengers... those in Zone 1, or North, East and South London will use Euston, those west of Slough will find little benefit beyond what they already have today. If theres no use case for a tube station running right next to the site, i cannot see a use case for a Chiltern train terminating in a valuable GWML through platform, that serves places already covered by the central line, which has already been discounted.

Why HS2 doesnt cut out the middleman, go straight underneath the new terminal planned at Sipson, with green fields suitable for parking with direct M3/4/25/40 access i can only assume is political self serving reasons, that we will be paying for in wasted psssenger time, lower usage and lost tax payer money for generations at Old Oak.

Edited October 13, 2018 by adb968008

[simon b]

If West Ealing to High Wycombe by-passes Greenford then a closure process would be needed unless one parliamentary replaced another and a single trip still ran into the bay.

 

In my experience most of those who use the service to Greenford do not interchange with the Central Line but use it as an origin / destination. Which implies that abandonment will cause some degree of inconvenience. And possible loss of precious traffic to the buses.

 

Chiltern have enough 2-car units that they could maintain the half-hourly branch service with one train each hour to Greenford (bay) and the other through Ruislip to Wycombe. Though I suspect neither is really what is needed locally by users of the Greenford line

I have seen reference to the possibility of a platform built to serve the former up main, should the need arise.

[Banger Blue]

The two GWR ECS services mentioned will be the Night Riveria Sleeper Stock. There are Paths in the system should the stock need to go via Oxford & Bicester, usually to turn the stock.

[Gwiwer]

It does seem ridiculously wasteful to have to even consider running Paddington - Oxford - Bicester - Paddington to turn stock.  Fuel, access fees and staff hours / wages are all in play.

[Pacific231G]

If West Ealing to High Wycombe by-passes Greenford then a closure process would be needed unless one parliamentary replaced another and a single trip still ran into the bay.

 

In my experience most of those who use the service to Greenford do not interchange with the Central Line but use it as an origin / destination. Which implies that abandonment will cause some degree of inconvenience. And possible loss of precious traffic to the buses.

 

Chiltern have enough 2-car units that they could maintain the half-hourly branch service with one train each hour to Greenford (bay) and the other through Ruislip to Wycombe. Though I suspect neither is really what is needed locally by users of the Greenford line

 

No stations are ceasing to be served, and No services are being lost.

Its a change of route.

Greenford has lost its Paddington direct services to one of a West Ruislip service.

South Ruislip was non-stop to Paddington, instead is to West Ruislip.

Both connect at West Ruislip to Paddington.

That it causes inconvienience is no relevance, the service is maintained (30 minutes shuttle to Greenford via Castle Bar Park, 1x daily to South Ruislip & High Wycombe).

It would be interesting to see passenger numbers on the Greenford line, now the journey takes 15 minutes longer and requires connections...i’d wager Greenford sees an increase in homebound Passengers from the Central line, given frequency of the central line..

 

Similary any passenger who may have used the 1x daily Paddington -High Wycombe will now probably use the Central line to South Ruislip instead and change there... proving that it is indeed possible to kill something that was already dead... which is why i dont believe it will ever come back in the future.

 

Is there a plan for an Old Oak Central line tube station ? - its running past the site already, runs upto Greenford, and South Ruislip and probably the most useful connection for those not in Zone 1..of course not, as Old Oaks only use case is Heathrow passengers... those in Zone 1, or North, East and South London will use Euston, those west of Slough will find little benefit beyond what they already have today. If theres no use case for a tube station running right next to the site, i cannot see a use case for a Chiltern train terminating in a valuable GWML through platform, that serves places already covered by the central line, which has already been discounted.

Why HS2 doesnt cut out the middleman, go straight underneath the new terminal planned at Sipson, with green fields suitable for parking with direct M3/4/25/40 access i can only assume is political self serving reasons, that we will be paying for in wasted psssenger time, lower usage and lost tax payer money for generations at Old Oak.

An hourly service from Greenford to W. Ealing would make the branch pretty useless. I use it fairly often- I used it today in fact- but far less often than when it ran through to Ealing Broadway and Paddington. The bay at West Ealing was built at great expense and ought to make the branch far more useful when Cross Rail finally gets completed. For me for example it should make getting to Excel  a fairly easy thirty or forty minute journey instead of the present hour and a half with two or three changes   At the moment it's still quite useful to get to Ealing Broadway or Paddington (or to Heathrow) but less so the other way. With the only footbridge at the extreme  E. end of W. Ealing station It's a bit of a schlep from the down platform to the Greenford bay and if the train from Paddington that's supposed to connect with it gets delayed by even a few minutes  you end up with an almost  half-hour wait  after the Greenford train has sailed off empty having failed in its one real purpose. Towards Paddington is less of a problem as there are something like four trains an hour from W. Ealing to there so usually no more than a ten minute wait and the change is simply a few steps across the platform.  Its future value really depends on the service frequency we end up with on Cross Rail at West Ealing. 

The daily parlies between Ruislip (W or S) and Paddington are probably irrelevant and I very much doubt if more than a handful of people actually use them.

 

The truth is that, for historical reasons, the connections between lines in this part of London are rubbish. The Central Line should connect with the Overground just east of  East Acton station. The new station at Shepherds Bush helps with that a bit -or would if it didn't have such a disjointed timetable with a very long gap in each hourly cycle. The Picadilly line crosses the GWML East of Ealing Broadway. The old North London Line of the Overground fails to connect with the Picadilly line to Heathrow and so on. It would though be very difficult to fix all that. It's more a case of "I wouldn't start from here"

 

There's probably not a lot of point to a Central Line station at OOC as the Central Line goes to Ealing Broadway which is on the GWML with a pretty frequent service. 

[Banger Blue]

It does seem ridiculously wasteful to have to even consider running Paddington - Oxford - Bicester - Paddington to turn stock.  Fuel, access fees and staff hours / wages are all in play.

Rick,

Don’t forget that during the day, the Sleeper stock now resides at Reading TCD. The normal operation is ECS straight up the GWML to Reading from Paddington but just occasionally it runs via Bicester & Oxford. I can’t recall us sending it to Paddington via Oxford since it’s been at Reading.

[298]

It does seem ridiculously wasteful to have to even consider running Paddington - Oxford - Bicester - Paddington to turn stock.  Fuel, access fees and staff hours / wages are all in play.

There are indirect benefits such as mileage accumulation, and crew training/handling/route refreshing.

 

How's about turning stock at Bounds Green, using the Newcastle bridges? That used to be a popular move.

[brenn]

Yes..... The guard wrote a message for me to give to the staff at HW to allow me to return. I seem to have been charged £6 each way on my Oyster card though.

 

I was the Guy with the very confused look on my face at High Wycombe take a photo of the front of the train......I should have got the first train to Marylebone but thought i may get a train back to Ruislip.......that cost me an hours wait and seem to have been charged £6 each way on my Oyster card though...... 

 

 

 

Was that you at the very back of the train? I thought I saw the guard going back and forth. 

 

The reason it run's non stop to Wycombe, is Chiltern use a Marylebone to High Wycombe ECS working to form the Paddington service.

 

IIRC the eventual plan is that Chiltern take over the Greenford branch service, but extend it to run from West Ealing to the bay at High Wycombe. The bay at Greenford will no longer be needed as it can only handle a short train, Chiltern will serve South Greenford station and then interchange with the central line at Ruislip. This will give Chiltern a direct interchange with Crossrail at West Ealing, Chiltern using platform 5 and a new platform 6 built on the old milk dock.

 

[brenn]

Next saturday at 1015 your wish will come true..

First and probably last time a pannier tank will operate on the Greenford branch this century.

 

Outward.. 9466 + 3 coaches

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10932/2018/10/20/advanced

And..

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10934/2018/10/20/advanced

 

Return

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10935/2018/10/20/advanced

 

 

Ecs before and after

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10931/2018/10/20/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10936/2018/10/20/advanced

 

Pity they couldnt have run down to Paddington.

So this train coming from Southhall and going up and down all day??...Can we use the Oyster?.....

[phil-b259]

Similary any passenger who may have used the 1x daily Paddington -High Wycombe will now probably use the Central line to South Ruislip instead and change there... proving that it is indeed possible to kill something that was already dead... which is why i dont believe it will ever come back in the future.

 

Is there a plan for an Old Oak Central line tube station ? - its running past the site already, runs upto Greenford, and South Ruislip and probably the most useful connection for those not in Zone 1.

 

I think the complication here is the close proximity of the existing North Acton station to the Old Oak site.

 

If both were built then you would end up with barely 100 yards between them - so you would need to close the current North Acton site.

 

However given the desire for comprehensive redevelopment of the Old Oak / Park Royal area, simply moving North Acton Eastwards in isolation may not be ideal - looking at a map there could be a case for a new 'North Acton station further west.

 

HS2 won't fund this as they are not the ones in charge of the re-development of Park Royal while TfL simply don't have any spare cash following the elimination of practically all central Government funding. Without a new station to the west TfL may be reluctant to move North Acton further from Park Royal.....

 

Not ideal and a situation but one which once again shows up the British obsession with money rather than producing a 'complete solution' for an area which puts users first.

[The Stationmaster]

See previous posts.

 

With HS2 just below the surface it would not make for great housing land. The intention is to keep it as a potential rail route and the sensible option would seem a second westward branch of Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) as far as High Wycombe so that fewer trains have to turn round at Paddington/OOC.

 

Ah, back to Crossrail Mk1, 1992 version (but that was partially justified/to be paid for by the closure of Marylebone

The Greenford service did at one time run to Ealing Broadway, and for some years through to Paddington, but with GWML electrification and (soon) Crossrail there is not the capacity for the service (which really only serves three small stations) on the main line.

 

The Greenford branch services have gone through numerous changes over many years the first big one probably being the Central Line extension which meant the parallel GWR autotrain service was withdrawn completely and Old oak Common Halt (on the cut-off) closed completely.   turning the service into a branch operation from Ealing Broadway probably did more to harm loadings than any other change up to then as was proved when the service was extended (you could almost legitimately say 'reinstated' albeit over  several decades) through to Paddington whic greatly boosted ridership.

 

I don't know what effect cutting it back to West Ealing has had but i suspect it has probably hit ridership by reintroducing the need to change into a main line train.  In view of the amazing number of Crossrail services talked about (by TfL) as running east of Hayes in the future it is pretty obvious to me that what has really ended the through service is the emergence of Crossrail in its currently proposed form and the wish to avoid a  continuing diesel worked service over the reliefs east of West Ealing.

[The Stationmaster]

No stations are ceasing to be served, and No services are being lost.

Its a change of route.

Greenford has lost its Paddington direct services to one of a West Ruislip service.

South Ruislip was non-stop to Paddington, instead is to West Ruislip.

Both connect at West Ruislip to Paddington.

That it causes inconvienience is no relevance, the service is maintained (30 minutes shuttle to Greenford via Castle Bar Park, 1x daily to South Ruislip & High Wycombe).

It would be interesting to see passenger numbers on the Greenford line, now the journey takes 15 minutes longer and requires connections...i’d wager Greenford sees an increase in homebound Passengers from the Central line, given frequency of the central line..

 

Similary any passenger who may have used the 1x daily Paddington -High Wycombe will now probably use the Central line to South Ruislip instead and change there... proving that it is indeed possible to kill something that was already dead... which is why i dont believe it will ever come back in the future.

 

Is there a plan for an Old Oak Central line tube station ? - its running past the site already, runs upto Greenford, and South Ruislip and probably the most useful connection for those not in Zone 1..of course not, as Old Oaks only use case is Heathrow passengers... those in Zone 1, or North, East and South London will use Euston, those west of Slough will find little benefit beyond what they already have today. If theres no use case for a tube station running right next to the site, i cannot see a use case for a Chiltern train terminating in a valuable GWML through platform, that serves places already covered by the central line, which has already been discounted.

Why HS2 doesnt cut out the middleman, go straight underneath the new terminal planned at Sipson, with green fields suitable for parking with direct M3/4/25/40 access i can only assume is political self serving reasons, that we will be paying for in wasted psssenger time, lower usage and lost tax payer money for generations at Old Oak.

 

The Old Oak Common Central Line UndergrounD station is called North Acton and it has long been regarded as the Central line station for OOC (it was even part of an official route for traincrew at one time).   But it is really too far for a passenger interchange although it's probably nearer than Willesdean Jcn.  Resiting it nearer to Old Oak could prove difficult unless it could be shorehorned into the curve adjacent (but on a lower level) to the site of the original halt on the GWR's other line via Park Royal to Greenford although overbridge abutments might pose complications.  There might still be enough width there whereas south of the GWMl the original quadruple track formation appears to have been impinged on by industrial buildings

[Zomboid]

On the central line East Acton is about as far South of the GWML as North Acton is North West of it.

Seems like relevant information at least, if not terribly useful...

[Christopher125]

IIRC the eventual plan is that Chiltern take over the Greenford branch service, but extend it to run from West Ealing to the bay at High Wycombe. The bay at Greenford will no longer be needed as it can only handle a short train, Chiltern will serve South Greenford station and then interchange with the central line at Ruislip. This will give Chiltern a direct interchange with Crossrail at West Ealing, Chiltern using platform 5 and a new platform 6 built on the old milk dock.

 

The DfT have gone cool on the Chiltern/Greenford plan, as described in this summer's GWR consultation response:

 

- Consultees were asked if they agreed with or did not agree with proposals for transferring the West Ealing – Greenford branch service to Chiltern Railways... Of those who expressed an opinion, 70% agreed with the proposal to transfer Greenford branch services to Chiltern Railways 

 

- However, in respect of Greenford services, further examination suggests that providing rolling stock from Chiltern’s Wembley depot is unlikely to be operationally any easier than from GWR’s Reading depot, at least for as long as Reading depot retains a fleet of diesel trains. Thus some of the intended benefits of the proposed transfer to Chiltern may be less than we had first anticipated. Many respondents’ replies focussed on how best to provide a reliable and suitably frequent service on the Greenford branch rather than a specific preference for one franchise or the other. 

 

- Taking account of the consultation responses, we do not see a compelling case for requiring FirstGroup to implement [this proposal].

Edited October 16, 2018 by Christopher125

[ess1uk]

i'm not that familiar with the area, which bit is shutting?

is it this bit?

[ess1uk]

answered my own question with a bit of digging

 

[caradoc]

The location of the Crossrail Turnback Sidings looks handy for an extension towards Greenford, West Ruislip and beyond.......

 

(edited to spell Ruislip correctly)

Edited October 17, 2018 by caradoc

[Zomboid]

Especially with the flyover. Why build a flyover over a set of turnback sidings?

[Edwin_m]

I think the flyover is needed because there isn't a big enough space at ground level for the sidings.  However I do agree it's been rather conveniently orientated for future extension.