End of Paddington - Birmingham direct.. Park Royal line to close

[jim.snowdon]

Isn't it just.

 

And still the N&SW Junction line sails serenely past the site without any hint of a way of providing any interchange with either HS2 or the Western.

[Northroader]

There’ll be a pair of platforms put in, with another Acton station on it, Acton Old Oak.

[Gwiwer]

Today's performer was 165016.  The up trip conveyed three passengers and the down four.  Not exactly overloaded but neither as quiet as I have known it in the days when it ran down to West Ruislip and could be used by Travelcard / Oyster Card holders.  The unit was displaying "Paddington" on the destination when photographed but this type of display is not reliably captured by digital cameras.

 

Also shown are two faces of the same board at High Wycombe.  That facing the former Maidenhead bay still proclaims it to be the "junction for" while the version facing most passengers arriving from the London direction includes the correct "formerly".  Both are replicas.

 

 

 

[Suzie]

I did it when you could start at South Ruislip, and return to West Ruislip on a travelcard.

 

Probably need to do something with South Ruislip station if the line does get reinstated for Crossrail though because there is currently no platform on the down.

[simon b]

 

The DfT have gone cool on the Chiltern/Greenford plan, as described in this summer's GWR consultation response:

 

- Consultees were asked if they agreed with or did not agree with proposals for transferring the West Ealing – Greenford branch service to Chiltern Railways... Of those who expressed an opinion, 70% agreed with the proposal to transfer Greenford branch services to Chiltern Railways 

 

- However, in respect of Greenford services, further examination suggests that providing rolling stock from Chiltern’s Wembley depot is unlikely to be operationally any easier than from GWR’s Reading depot, at least for as long as Reading depot retains a fleet of diesel trains. Thus some of the intended benefits of the proposed transfer to Chiltern may be less than we had first anticipated. Many respondents’ replies focussed on how best to provide a reliable and suitably frequent service on the Greenford branch rather than a specific preference for one franchise or the other. 

 

- Taking account of the consultation responses, we do not see a compelling case for requiring FirstGroup to implement [this proposal].

That's a bit short sighted. It makes sense if the branch is to be operated how it is now, but surely as Chiltern were planing to integrate the branch into an existing service from High Wycombe it would be far easier? 

[The Stationmaster]

I think the flyover is needed because there isn't a big enough space at ground level for the sidings.  However I do agree it's been rather conveniently orientated for future extension. 

 

I really wonder if there's enough room for a flyover!  That will be quite a steep gradient on the acton side as the line has to climb from being underneath the N&SW line to go over the Park Royal line in a distance of c.20 chains so it's going to be steeper than 1 in 100.

[Zomboid]

1 in 100 for a few hundred metres is nothing to a modern suburban EMU.

[jim.snowdon]

I really wonder if there's enough room for a flyover!  That will be quite a steep gradient on the acton side as the line has to climb from being underneath the N&SW line to go over the Park Royal line in a distance of c.20 chains so it's going to be steeper than 1 in 100.

That's probably what they said about the Acton dive-under, and the likes of the District line flyover at Barking, which has been there a lot longer, are at least as steep.

 

Jim

[Pacific231G]

That's probably what they said about the Acton dive-under, and the likes of the District line flyover at Barking, which has been there a lot longer, are at least as steep.

 

Jim

Just how steep is the Acton dive-under ? (I assume you mean the one that takes up "slow" trains from the GWML under the western entrance to the Acton yard. I've been through it a few times now and it does seem pretty steep though that was on electric trains; certainly steeper than the flyover/under that sorts out the Central Line'd sense of direction west of White City

Edited October 19, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Ron Ron Ron]

Sorry folks, going off topic for a moment, but just to correct a couple of points made in this thread and the HS2 thread....

 

.....with bad LHR / HS2 connections and LHR gaining a new short haul runway and terminal .....

Why HS2 doesnt cut out the middleman, go straight underneath the new terminal planned at Sipson, with green fields suitable for parking with direct M3/4/25/40 access ........

LHR is not gaining a "short haul runway".

That was the previous 2007 plan, that was scrubbed a decade back.

The later, current, government sanctioned scheme involves a new full length runway.

 

Also, the proposed new LHR terminal isn't located in Sipson, but is planned to be built back-to-back with T5, facing the M25 (i.e. between T5 and the M25).

 

That's all academic anyway, as HS2 is not going to run via LHR.

 

Back to the topic.........

 

 

 

.

[caradoc]

Just how steep is the Acton dive-under ? (I assume you mean the one that takes up "slow" trains from the GWML under the western entrance to the Acton yard. I've been through it a few times now and it does seem pretty steep though that was on electric trains; certainly steeper than the flyover/under that sorts out the Central Line'd sense of direction west of White City

 

Better edit 'slow' to read 'relief' David; The Great Western Railway did not have Slow Lines !!

[Trog]

Better edit 'slow' to read 'relief' David; The Great Western Railway did not have Slow Lines !!

 

While the branch line from West London Junction to South Wales and the West Country has officially not had slow lines since the first of January 1880. Anyone who has worked on both the North Western Main Line where the slow lines, run in places at 125MPH and the Western branch. Will have seen the local DMUs bumbling by, and instinctively knows that they are slow lines still.

[Gwiwer]

Liverpool Street has “Electric” lines when all tracks are electrified. Euston has “DC Lines” when the rest are AC. Paddington has “Relief Lines”. The Southern has “Slow Lines”

[Trog]

When I worked on the North London Line in the 1990's some people were still referring to the No1 lines as the steam lines. There is also the New Line through Northampton completed in 1882 which is taking new to a whole new level of meaning.

[jim.snowdon]

That's all academic anyway, as HS2 is not going to run via LHR.

How typical that in the UK, our biggest airport is barely connected to the national railway network, let alone the much vaunted high speed network.

 

Jim

[Ron Ron Ron]

How typical that in the UK, our biggest airport is barely connected to the national railway network, let alone the much vaunted high speed network.

 

 

Whilst it is lamentable (bl**dy poor actually) that a major airport as large and as busy as Heathrow, has up to now had very limited rail links, there are a few things to bear in mind.

 

With the opening of Crossrail, there will be an initial service of 10 tph (6 EL + 4 HEX) from there to central London (and beyond).

There's an aspiration for a couple more tph, but how they will manage that is anyone's guess.

 

The Western Rail Link project is still in active progress, despite having been deliberately slowed down for various reasons.

Once given the final go ahead, it will open up links via the Reading interchange.

 

There is now much political support for the latest proposed Southern Rail link to be tied to the R3 planning approval.

 

That 76% of all of Heathrow's originating and destination passengers are travelling to or from Greater London and the SE of England (which incidentally doesn't include Hertford and Essex!!), with only 7% travelling to/from the Midlands, North of England and Scotland (i.e. HS2 territory).

 

 

I personally thought that HS2 should have routed via LHR, but it isn't going to be.

That decision was made long ago and the crayons can be put safely away.

 

 

.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[Zomboid]

Better edit 'slow' to read 'relief' David; The Great Western Railway did not have Slow Lines !!

Nor did it have Fast lines

[brenn]

Today's performer was 165016.  The up trip conveyed three passengers and the down four.  Not exactly overloaded but neither as quiet as I have known it in the days when it ran down to West Ruislip and could be used by Travelcard / Oyster Card holders.  The unit was displaying "Paddington" on the destination when photographed but this type of display is not reliably captured by digital cameras.

 

Also shown are two faces of the same board at High Wycombe.  That facing the former Maidenhead bay still proclaims it to be the "junction for" while the version facing most passengers arriving from the London direction includes the correct "formerly".  Both are replicas.

 

image1.jpg

 

image2.jpg

 

image3.jpg

So  was it High Wycombe all the way on this service too??....

[Davexoc]

Whilst it is lamentable (bl**dy poor actually) that a major airport as large and as busy as Heathrow, has up to now had very limited rail links, there are a few things to bear in mind.

Going back some years I had an early flight to Milan, 05.55 IIRC. I looked at using HEX but it didn't start anywhere near early enough, so I looked at an air-link coach service, that didn't get there early enough either. Don't know what it's like these days, but back then you were forced to drive there yourself at stupid o'clock.

[Pacific231G]

Nor did it have Fast lines

 

About four of you have taken the trouble to point out my "error" in referring to the lines generally used by slower trains as slow lines- without apparently noticing that I put "slow" in inverted commas as a generic description rather than their official title. Since nobody apparently knew the answer to my actual query  I've had to delve a bit for it. Accordng to a presentation given at Network Rail's Track Engineering Conference in 2015, it's the steepest use of Rheda 2000 slab track and the gradients are 1:40 down and 1:50 up

The presentation is interesting and can be found here

https://www.thepwi.org/about_us/blog/posts/acton_diveunder_slab_track_steepest_rheda_2000_uk_innovative_transition_arrangements

 

It refers to the diveunder as the Acton Roller Coaster. Given the combination of vertical and horizontal transitions involved that does seem very apt.

 

Diveunder is a word I'd never seen before this one was being built. Is it now the accepted term replacing "burrowing junction" which I'm sure is what the arrangement that takes the H&C under the GWML  between Royal Oak and Westbourne Park was always called.

 

It has long struck me as rather ironic, given that the "fast" lines are properly the up and down main, that Acton Main Line station has lost its down main platform. Would the remaining platform 2 on the up main - now barriered off from platform three- have been retained for the sole purpose of detraining passengers if (or rather when!) Paddington gets a complete stoppage?

[Gwiwer]

Diveunder is a word I'd never seen before this one was being built.

 

 

The divergence of the Kingston "Roundabout" from the main lines at New Malden, built in the 1930s IIRC and replacing a flat junction, has always been known as the Malden Diveunder.  There are surely other examples.

 

[Pacific231G]

How typical that in the UK, our biggest airport is barely connected to the national railway network, let alone the much vaunted high speed network.

 

Jim

Hi Jim

I think you have to see this as a hangover from the time when airports and roads were "the future" while railways were seen as part of a soon to be buried "past". According to that thinking you might almost as well link a major airport into the canal network as worry about a rail connection. In any case, the sort of people who would fly certainly wouldn't be the sort of people who'd use mass public transport.(an idea that ignored the importance of airports as local employers)  

 

With the branch from the GWML to Staines it would actually have been very easy to plan Heathrow with a rail link from the start but nobody thought it was necessary. It wasn't until 1977 that even the Picadilly Line reached Heathrow.  I think it was only the chance that Gatwick Airport was built on land belonging to the owners of Gatwick Racecourse that gave it a good rail connection . Racecourses certainly have understood the value of rail connections since Victorian times but not, until comparatively very recently, have  airports.

Even today I can only think of a few major British airports that have a good rail link. Stansted, Birmingham, and Manchester do, Newcastle is now a terminus on the Tyneside Metro and London City is on the DLR.  Luton station is close enough to the airport for a shuttle bus.  Glasgow Prestwick has a railway station but it's not the city's main airport. Southampton has a station as does Southend but, with a couple of dozen daily schedules, I'm not sure I'd classify it as a major airport.

 

That negative or dismissive attitude to rail based transport links wasn't just in this country. The first time I visited the USA  I can remember being astonished at the almost non-existent public transport connection between JFK and New York City. I think there was an infrequent local bus that went from there to the end of one of the subways but ISTR that even as poor students we ended up sharing cabs.

In France,Nice-Cote d'Azure airport is less than a mile from the local Nice-Saint-Augustin station but for most travellers they might as well be on different planets and for a long time Orly and CDG were well away from anything running on rails. Ironically, for a few years, Le Touquet airport did have its own dedicated  station with a rail line that ran across the taxiways but that was specifically in connection with the Silver Arrow service from London to Paris via Victora-Gatwick and  Le Touquet- Gare du Nord .

Edited October 25, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Suzie]

Surely air travel for most is public transport? I don't have my own plane. Having stations at airports is just integrated public transport like having bus stops outside stations. You can't even walk to Heathrow from your favourite airport hotel for the most part so public transport really is key.

[Pacific231G]

The divergence of the Kingston "Roundabout" from the main lines at New Malden, built in the 1930s IIRC and replacing a flat junction, has always been known as the Malden Diveunder.  There are surely other examples.

 

Screen Shot 2018-10-21 at 00.44.49.png

I found the Bermondsey Diveunder and NR also refer to the Werrington Grade Separation as a diveunder but those are both very recent and Grade Separation seems to be the official title of Werrington. Diveunder Is an obvious counterpart to flyover but those two were the only examples I could find whereas "burrowing junction" produced a lot of examples. 

I rather like the French term saut-de-mouton derived from saute-mouton, the childrens game of leap-frog   but that can refer to both a flyover and a diveunder

Edited October 21, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

Surely air travel for most is public transport? I don't have my own plane. Having stations at airports is just integrated public transport like having bus stops outside stations. You can't even walk to Heathrow from your favourite airport hotel for the most part so public transport really is key.

It is now and strictly speaking it always was, but so are taxis. When aiports were first being developed, air travel  was seen as far more exclusive than trains or buses which was what most people thought of as "public transport" . You might get on a coach at the West London Air Terminal but you wouldn't see yourself as a bus passenger.

Since air travel became mass transportation then yes integrated public transport is vital but there's a lot of catching up to do. It's also worth remembering that travel by rail was itself once somewhat exclusive; the scale of the cab roads at major termini- Paddington provided an excellent example-does indicate how  many if not most rail passengers got to and from the station.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Pacific231G