Daylight saving time

[Metr0Land]

 

The "laws of physics" - as you put it - dictate that the UK should remain on GMT year round, for the reasons explained previously. Perhaps you should try and grasp that?

 

The laws of physics dictate nothing of the kind.  They simply dictate that hours of daylight will be different in different places.  Choosing GMT or any other timezone is a matter for political/social choice.  After all, we had different times in London and Bristol before the GWR because the midday sun is highest at different times in different places. Physics did not dictate that London time and Bristol time, but the practicalties were that it would be best to get them aligned.  Whilst it may be preferable to align them, it's not physics.

 

BTW if one or other time zone is preferable for animal husbandry then why don't we see cows and other livestock wearing watches?  They manage ok by the sun, and if human workers really need to maximise whatever daylight they have, why not alter working practices to suit?  You can't do this with all occupations but with eg farming there should be little problem.

[Bon Accord]

BTW if one or other time zone is preferable for animal husbandry then why don't we see cows and other livestock wearing watches?  They manage ok by the sun, and if human workers really need to maximise whatever daylight they have, why not alter working practices to suit?  You can't do this with all occupations but with eg farming there should be little problem.

 

Exactly, so by your own reasoning there's no reason to change the timezone from GMT at all is there?

[Fenman]

Exactly, so by your own reasoning there's no reason to change the timezone from GMT at all is there?

So the actual evidence from the last time we experimented with time zones (that BST+1 leads to fewer deaths) is irrelevant to you?

 

Paul

[Bon Accord]

So the actual evidence from the last time we experimented with time zones (that BST+1 leads to fewer deaths) is irrelevant to you?

 

Paul

 

All that data suggested was that there were fewer casualties in the evening, however there were more deaths occurring in the morning with a slight overall net reduction. Of course that data was not broken down on a region by region or per capita basis which is really rather important when the localised issues are considered.

it's also worth remembering that the trial period coincided with a time when road safety by modern standards was shockingly poor such that there were on average 1000 casualties on the roads per day (combined injuries/deaths), indeed the peak occurred in 1966 with some 8000 people killed with some 350,000 injuries. The trial also coincided with the introduction of drink/drive legislation in October 1967 - the introduction of that legislation is reckoned to have cut road deaths by over 1000 per year instantly and with 40,000 fewer injuries.

It is worth pointing that when the subject reared it's head again (as it does periodically) in the late 80s all of the above was taken into account and the government of the day kicked the matter into touch yet again.

To put road safety into a modern context so as to compare the 1960s figures with today, as of 2017 there were some 1700 deaths and 180,000 injuries annually.

The "evidence" as you put it from the last experiment is rather flawed to say the least.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Bon Accord

[Steamport Southport]

To be quite honest I put my hands up and admit I have got it wrong, winter time is GMT which is when the sun is at its highest (midday) if I am not wrong, why then to we move the clocks forward in Spring?

 

Now if we are worried about children being in accidents after school in the afternoons then the solution is simple, start the school day at 8 am. Where is the problem ?

 

As for putting the clocks forward in the spring, why?

 

Because people want an extra hours evening daylight in the summer.

 

If you didn't have BST than it would be dark at eight o'clock for most of the summer. Nine at the latest. It would ruin the tourist and hospitality industry.

 

 

The system is fine as it is.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited October 30, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[Nick C]

So the actual evidence from the last time we experimented with time zones (that BST+1 leads to fewer deaths) is irrelevant to you?

 

Paul

 

A few seconds on Wikipedia shows that that evidence is meaningless, as the experiment coincided with the introduction of drink-drive legislation - Any decent scientist will tell you that you can't change two variables and attribute the change in results entirely to one of them. 

[kevinlms]

To be quite honest I put my hands up and admit I have got it wrong, winter time is GMT which is when the sun is at its highest (midday) if I am not wrong, why then to we move the clocks forward in Spring?

 

Now if we are worried about children being in accidents after school in the afternoons then the solution is simple, start the school day at 8 am. Where is the problem ?

 

As for putting the clocks forward in the spring, why?

If you change the starting time of schools etc, isn't it the same thing? People would still have to make adjustments.

[hayfield]

If you change the starting time of schools etc, isn't it the same thing? People would still have to make adjustments.

 

But mid day is mid day and if its safer for children to come home in the light/twilight then so be it.

 

Lets stop both dumbing down or pandering to the lowest denominator, 

 

The GMT +1 is described as daylight saving, not lets have an extra hour of sunlight on a summers evening down the pub !!!  Get up and go for a walk in the morning its much healthier, and think of the Scottish who have limited sunlight in the winter, but funny how they don't complain about having too much daylight in the summer ?

[arran]

HI All

 

The way it is now works fine, while in the Summer we in the wastelands of the North have more daylight than the soft Southerners in the winter its the exact opposite.

 

So those like myself who actually can be out side doing a job in the winter its getting light at 8am and dark by 4pm works as well as it can, as for those that work in offices Well you have a light switch and if you want more day light later on in the day start 1 hr earlier 

 

Regards Arran

[Rivercider]

Would an extra hour of daylight in the evening benefit a far greater number of people in the south than would be inconvenienced by those in the north getting an hour less daylight in the morning?

From a selfish point of view as it stands at weekends there will now be daylight I don't use, but I have to put lights on an hour earlier in the evening.

 

cheers  

[Fenman]

All that data suggested was that there were fewer casualties in the evening, however there were more deaths occurring in the morning with a slight overall net reduction. Of course that data was not broken down on a region by region or per capita basis which is really rather important when the localised issues are considered.

it's also worth remembering that the trial period coincided with a time when road safety by modern standards was shockingly poor such that there were on average 1000 casualties on the roads per day (combined injuries/deaths), indeed the peak occurred in 1966 with some 8000 people killed with some 350,000 injuries. The trial also coincided with the introduction of drink/drive legislation in October 1967 - the introduction of that legislation is reckoned to have cut road deaths by over 1000 per year instantly and with 40,000 fewer injuries.

It is worth pointing that when the subject reared it's head again (as it does periodically) in the late 80s all of the above was taken into account and the government of the day kicked the matter into touch yet again.

To put road safety into a modern context so as to compare the 1960s figures with today, as of 2017 there were some 1700 deaths and 180,000 injuries annually.

The "evidence" as you put it from the last experiment is rather flawed to say the least.

 

 

A few seconds on Wikipedia shows that that evidence is meaningless, as the experiment coincided with the introduction of drink-drive legislation - Any decent scientist will tell you that you can't change two variables and attribute the change in results entirely to one of them. 

 

 

Fascinating responses (emphasis added).

 

So you would say the answer is not, then, to have a fresh trial, in modern circumstances, to see if we can actually save lives by the simple expedient of altering the clocks? No, the correct answer is to stick our heads in the sand and say very loudly that "the evidence is flawed, let's change nothing, la-la-la"?

 

Not sure I can go with you on that approach. Even if Wikipedia states that you're right...

 

Paul

[Rivercider]

I wonder if there is any medical evidence to link an increase in Seasonal Affective Disorder to the autumn clock change?

Fortunately I do not suffer from SAD, but anecdotally many people I know do not look forward to the change each year.

 

cheers

[Pacific231G]

Personally I hate the annual reversion to GMT. Every autumn when the clocks got back I vow to go to bed and get up an hour earlier and every year I manage it for about a week before reverting to the same clock times and cursing the earlier darkness. I don't mind getting up in the dark because things then get better but I hate it when it starts getting dark a couple of hours after lunch. Why the clock rules my behaviour more than the actual sidereal time is I suspect to do with synchronising wih everyone else's behaviour and that is run by the clock not the sun.

 

It's worth noting that BST was introduced in 1916 and double summer time during the Second World War, both of them to improve productivity and save fuel and also in the case of WW2 to reduce the very high number of road accidents happening during the darkness of the blackout . Clearly, if they couldn't just get people to change their hours of activity relative to the clock in the extremis of war it's unlikely to be possible in more normal times. DST (with winter at GMT+1) was also used during the fuel crisis of 1947. 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Bon Accord]

Fascinating responses (emphasis added).

 

So you would say the answer is not, then, to have a fresh trial, in modern circumstances, to see if we can actually save lives by the simple expedient of altering the clocks? No, the correct answer is to stick our heads in the sand and say very loudly that "the evidence is flawed, let's change nothing, la-la-la"?

 

Not sure I can go with you on that approach. Even if Wikipedia states that you're right...

 

Paul

With regard to road safety then to me a far more effective measure would be compulsory theory and practical retesting of all drivers at intervals of no greater than 10 years, with the interval steadily decreasing as drivers age, together with greater and more severe penalties for speeding and road traffic violations. Some form of official regular medical screening would also be appropriate for all drivers.

In addition, new drivers - who are demonstrably at far greater risk of incident due to inexperience - should have far greater restrictions placed on things like night time driving, how many passengers they can carry as well as be limited on the power of vehicles they are permitted to drive so as to try and mitigate those risks.

Such a change would remove more poor drivers from the roads, ensure greater compliance with the laws and highway code and also have the benefit of being a positive influence on driver ability and competence regardless of the time of day or season.

It is a rather incredible and indeed a unique situation with regard to transport in general that in this and many other countries you can legally take control of something as lethal as a road vehicle at the age of 17 and then have a license for life with no requirement to ever again demonstrate competence as a driver.

Of course all that only applies if your sole motivation for a change in the clocks is a potential improvement in road safety, rather than just using that as an excuse to mask greater personal convenience.

[caradoc]

But mid day is mid day and if its safer for children to come home in the light/twilight then so be it.

 

Lets stop both dumbing down or pandering to the lowest denominator, 

 

The GMT +1 is described as daylight saving, not lets have an extra hour of sunlight on a summers evening down the pub !!!  Get up and go for a walk in the morning its much healthier, and think of the Scottish who have limited sunlight in the winter, but funny how they don't complain about having too much daylight in the summer ?

 

We in Scotland do have more daylight in summer (or what passes for it anyway) but by crikey we pay for it in winter !

 

 

Would an extra hour of daylight in the evening benefit a far greater number of people in the south than would be inconvenienced by those in the north getting an hour less daylight in the morning?

From a selfish point of view as it stands at weekends there will now be daylight I don't use, but I have to put lights on an hour earlier in the evening.

 

cheers  

 

Personally I would far prefer the extra daylight in the afternoon instead of the morning, giving shift workers a little more time after the early shift and after getting up when on night shift, plus it would give kids more time to play after school, and that would apply throughout the UK. 

[stewartingram]

With regard to road safety then to me a far more effective measure would be compulsory theory and practical retesting of all drivers at intervals of no greater than 10 years, with the interval steadily decreasing as drivers age, together with greater and more severe penalties for speeding and road traffic violations. Some form of official regular medical screening would also be appropriate for all drivers.

In addition, new drivers - who are demonstrably at far greater risk of incident due to inexperience - should have far greater restrictions placed on things like night time driving, how many passengers they can carry as well as be limited on the power of vehicles they are permitted to drive so as to try and mitigate those risks.

Such a change would remove more poor drivers from the roads, ensure greater compliance with the laws and highway code and also have the benefit of being a positive influence on driver ability and competence regardless of the time of day or season.

It is a rather incredible and indeed a unique situation with regard to transport in general that in this and many other countries you can legally take control of something as lethal as a road vehicle at the age of 17 and then have a license for life with no requirement to ever again demonstrate competence as a driver.

Of course all that only applies if your sole motivation for a change in the clocks is a potential improvement in road safety, rather than just using that as an excuse to mask greater personal convenience.

I agree in principle, but there is a drawback....

 

It needs effective policing (not spelt with a lower case "p", so not a dig at the Police).

 

We suffer greatly from that. If present laws were enforced, very few new ones would be needed.

 

Stewart

[jjb1970]

Personally I think everybody is looking at this in completely the wrong way. Rather than wasting time playing with clocks it should be possible to shift the earth's axis of rotation to Place Britain on the equator, thus avoiding the problem of having short days. Obviously there would be some risk but we could do a risk assessment. I see no reason not to press on.

[bimble]

I wonder if there is any medical evidence to link an increase in Seasonal Affective Disorder to the autumn clock change?

Fortunately I do not suffer from SAD, but anecdotally many people I know do not look forward to the change each year.

 

cheers

 

Well, they get the same length of sunlight (minus a couple of minutes) from the Saturday to the Sunday, and it's basically dark enough to have your headlights on driving home after work on the Friday before so it's not like you suddenly lose evening light...

[brianusa]

A lot depends on how one looks at this, one gets up in the dark and goes to work in the dark in winter. We all moan abut it but perhaps the day brings a brilliant sunny frosty morning where everything looks good. The progression to Spring means brighter mornings and Summer, longer days, By that time, we all need a change so we look forward to Autumn with its golden colours, conkers and crumpets by the fire and finally the Christmas season with all that it brings. So look forward to the time change, whatever it may be and 'have a nice day', as they say!  

Brian.

 

PS.  If its raining - stay home!

Edited October 30, 2018 by brianusa

[Fenman]

Personally I think everybody is looking at this in completely the wrong way. Rather than wasting time playing with clocks it should be possible to shift the earth's axis of rotation to Place Britain on the equator, thus avoiding the problem of having short days. Obviously there would be some risk but we could do a risk assessment. I see no reason not to press on.

I’m with you. Though obviously by doing this we’d lose the extra long days. Maybe instead we could move the axis at 6-monthly intervals to maximise benefits? After all, aren’t we meant to be adopting an approach where we can both have cake and eat it?

 

Paul

[Fenman]

...

Of course all that only applies if your sole motivation for a change in the clocks is a potential improvement in road safety, rather than just using that as an excuse to mask greater personal convenience.

I don’t follow your logic: surely all that applies whatever the motivation involved? I’m struggling to see how someone’s motivation would affect your proposal.

 

Still, your proposal strikes me as an “and” rather than an “either/or”. Unless, of course, your sole motivation is to propose other road safety policies in order to mask your desire for greater personal convenience by keeping the present system of time changes.

[Ozexpatriate]

If you think Scotland has problems, try Alaska. Most of the state is one time zone - it spans enough longitude (shorter distances at that latitude) to easily cover three time zones.

 

It is set in the UTC-9 zone which is suitable for Juneau, the State capital.

 

Making it worse, much of it should (celestially) be UTC-10 or UTC-11, but is UTC-9. Alaska daylight time is UTC-8 which is as much as three hours off the celestial positions in the western parts of the state.

 

In parts of the state sunset often occurs well after midnight and celestial noon in Anchorage happens as earlier than 10:00am.

[Pacific231G]

A few seconds on Wikipedia shows that that evidence is meaningless, as the experiment coincided with the introduction of drink-drive legislation - Any decent scientist will tell you that you can't change two variables and attribute the change in results entirely to one of them. 

No, but there are plenty of mathematical tools for analysing multiple variables.  Being able to alter just one variable at a time while leaving eveything else constant is a luxury that few scientists, decent or otherwise, studying complex systems are ever likely to enjoy.

 

In this case it should be fairly easy to look at the effects of drink driving legislation over different seasons and different times of day and control for that in looking for the effect of shifting the clocks against sidereal time. That won't of course produce the simple and obvious "results" demanded by the tabloids and politicians but since when were they interested in real science? To take an obvious example the effects on accident reduction of drink drive legislation were likely to be  most strongly correlated with pub closing times whereas that for daylight saving wold have been greatest at each end of the working day. Also, since drivers involved in serious accidents are usually breathalysed, that would give an additional data set. If drivers who hadn't been drinking were less likely to have accidents when sunset was later then that would give you a testable variable.  

[PatB]

At risk of being political, I do think it's a little unfair that the Scots are expected to suck it up when a measure is beneficial to Southern England but rather detrimental to them. Seems to have been a perennial issue since James I's time.

 

On time zones, quite apart from the three official ones in Oz, along with the assorted DST anomalies, the roadhouses and other tiny communities of the Nullabor have their own little time zone that noone else uses. Most of the time it doesn't matter much because, for most, you don't hang about on the Eyre Highway. Time is measured in fuel stops and nature breaks. It can be significant if you're doing a night crossing though (not really recommended for a number of reasons) 'cos not all the roadhouses are 24 hour and it could be a bit of a pain getting to the one where you need to refuel, only to find that it closed half an hour before you thought it did.

[caradoc]

I'm in Scotland and would vote for continuous BST every time ! As I write this today, just after 0830, it is certainly daylight outside but so overcast that it is impossible to read indoors without a light on. Yesterday started out very misty and grey but by lunchtime the sun broke through and it was a glorious afternoon, only to spoil it all by getting dark at 1700.