What does a Mk1 horse box actually have in common with Mk 1 coaches?

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

.... There were two 57' mk1 underframes, a bow-ended version used on BGs and a flat ended version used on GUVs and non-gangwayed suburban stock.  There were similarly also two 64' underframes, bowended used on gangwayed passenger stock and flat ended for 64' non-gangwayed suburbans.

 

The flatended suburbans influenced a lot of the 64' 'high density' multiple unit stock as regards profile and internal layouts, including the Southern's BR designed EPB emu sets and the diesel electric 'Thumper' sets, the Crewe-Manchester-Liverpool suburban 25kv emus, LT&S and North London emus, GE section Barking emus, and Classes 115/6/7/8/121/2 dmus, but these had different (and differing) underframes and bogies, and close-coupled buffing gear within the sets for the emus.  Many of the dmus were gangwayed in later years.

No - the underframes for gangwayed and non-gangwayed Mk1s were identical - it's only the bodies that were flat- or bow -ended ...... look at the end of a non-gangwayed one and you'll see the holes in the headstock where gangway buffers could be fitted - though it probably only happened on the 'Newspaper' GUVs.

 

I don't think any Diesel Mechanical units truly belonged to the Mk1 family though there were cosmetic similarities - in particular the Inter-City units. The electrics and diesel-electrics you list were, indeed, true Mk1s - most had 'buckeye' couplings and Pullman buffing plates throughout though the EPB sets followed earlier Southern practise by having single buffers and three-link couplings within. 'Express' electrics from CEPs to REPs and the 'Clacton' units were true gangwayed Mk1s.

[keefer]

39 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Express' electrics from CEPs to REPs and the 'Clacton' units were true gangwayed Mk1s.

And actually used converted loco-hauled coaches as trailer vehicles. The TCs were actually all converted stock.

[Wickham Green too]

Indeed - all the REP trailers came from loco-hauled stock as did a number of Trailer Seconds/Standards when BEPs were converted to CEPs ...... and class309/1 Clacton sets were augmented from two to four cars with a Composite and Second/Standard.

[Steamport Southport]

On 14/10/2022 at 11:14, Blair Ramsay said:

Getting back to horseboxes many years later.

 

My recollection is that almost as soon as they were introduced many became redundant because horse transport switched to the roads.

 

Can anyone shed any light on the fate of these vehicles?

 

I have a short two coach rake of parcels stock consisting of a BR Mk1 BG and an ex-LMS 42 ft GUV, which is a scale length of approximately  100ft.

I would like to increase this to about a scale 120ft and I was considering adding a mk1horsebox to achieve this.

BR did re-purpose various redundant vehicles, for example cattle wagons were used for ale traffic, and I wondered whether something similar happened to horse boxes.

 

Blair Ramsay

 

Most lasted until the early to mid 1970s and were withdrawn en masse. One of the major users of them was the Cavalry. If you can find the footage of the Prince Of Wales Investiture in 1969 there is film of dozens of them arriving behind a class 40. All spotlessly clean and still in BR Maroon and Green. 

 

Horse of the Year shows were common users of them. 1970.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/27657689898

 

Common in circus trains as well.

 

https://sremg.org.uk/vandw/hbox.shtml

 

Some went to departmental use where they were liked as they had a lavatory.

 

 

Jason

[Michael Hodgson]

Interesting - I didn't realise circus trains were still in operation that late, assumed they had died out before WW2.

 

 

39 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Some went to departmental use where they were liked as they had a lavatory

 

A shovel and a bucket to help win the prize for the best roses ?

[Mark Saunders]

I was told the tale that a circus train visited Blyth and they tried llama poo on the flower bed and nothing grew.

[Nearholmer]

The Mk1 horse box is actually first class by horse standards. They were clearly designed to look after the most valuable racehorses in some comfort. The groom’s compartment and loo is pretty decent too, although obviously not up to ‘owners’ standard.

 

A converted one would make a really nice rail-caravan, with drop-down verandah.

[KeithHC]

Am I right in thinking. Did OVS design the Gresley coaches when he was at Doncaster before he went south.

 

Keith

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, KeithHC said:

Am I right in thinking. Did OVS design the Gresley coaches when he was at Doncaster before he went south.

 

LNER carriages were designed by the Carriage & Wagon Drawing Office staff, with the Operating Department (or however that was designated on the LNER) having considerable influence - laying down the basic requirements in terms of accommodation etc. How much input there was from any of Gresley's senior staff would be an interesting question to answer; was there a designated Carriage & Wagon Superintendent? However, I note that in the period between the end of the Great War and the grouping, Bulleid was the Great Northern's Carriage & Wagon Works Manager - so he would have had responsibility for manufacture but not design. 

[keefer]

22 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Most lasted until the early to mid 1970s and were withdrawn en masse. One of the major users of them was the Cavalry. If you can find the footage of the Prince Of Wales Investiture in 1969 there is film of dozens of them arriving behind a class 40. All spotlessly clean and still in BR Maroon and Green. 

 

Horse of the Year shows were common users of them. 1970.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/27657689898

 

Common in circus trains as well.

 

https://sremg.org.uk/vandw/hbox.shtml

 

Some went to departmental use where they were liked as they had a lavatory.

 

 

Jason

Some pics of boxes at Kensington Olympia in 1968-70 in this set:

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p910105639

 

Including a sample formation of the Household Cavalry's train.

22.30 to Wadebridge, CCT TSO BCK 15HB

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p910105639

Edited October 16, 2022 by keefer

[hmrspaul]

My memory of a block of them was at Waterloo when the Canadian Mounties rode in and went to load up - off to the Windsor Horse trials. Included maroon ones which really showed up at Waterloo in those all green days. 

 

Some condemnation dates and disposal - transfer to engineers details in Longworth, Hugh (2013) B R Mark 1 and mark 2 coaching stock. Publ. OPC (Ian Allan) Herhsam Surrey ISBN 978 0 86093 650 3.

 

Paul

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcattle

[roythebus1]

The GUVs were built to Hastings Line gauge, like the Hastings DEMUs. They had to be capable of going virtually anywhere.

[Wickham Green too]

34 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

The GUVs were built to Hastings Line gauge, like the Hastings DEMUs. ....

They were definitely NOT the same shape as Hastings units - more than 3'' wider over body panels ..... overall & handles widths suggest a greater difference but the description is not consistent so not a safe comparison. ( van details from Parkin, Hastings details from "The Hastings Diesels Story" )

Weren't the last Southern 'Van B's  retained for Hastings line traffic 'cos nothing else would squeeze through the tunnels ?

[keefer]

I thought GUVs were slightly narrower than normal Mk1 C1 restriction stock i.e. max 9'0" over handles etc., as they had flat sides.

So looked at the Diagram Book and it turns out they're narrower than I thought - max. 8'9" overall.

I thought this might be near enough to 'Hastings' gauge but on checking the Diagram Book, it shows that stock to be even narrower - still 9'0" over stepboards but only 8'2 7/16" overall. (6L TSO shown).

 

Can't find a Diagram for the SR Van B but to bring things back on topic, there is a Diagram for the BR Mk1 Horsebox!

 

Only  8'8 5/8" overall, so maybe not Hastings line compatible but still narrower than normal to increase RA (as with the GUV)

Edited October 18, 2022 by keefer

[ejstubbs]

On 15/10/2022 at 17:22, Mark Saunders said:

I was told the tale that a circus train visited Blyth and they tried llama poo on the flower bed and nothing grew.

 

Which seems a bit odd, since "llama beans" are often touted as an excellent organic fertiliser/soil conditioner.  They may not be a miracle panacea for all gardening ills (see also the nonsense spouted about "super foods" - aka "food") but they're a perfectly good source of potassium, nitrogen and phosphorous as well as organic material for soil conditioning.  Apparently it is best to soak them for a while before adding them to the soil, to help speed up their breakdown.

 

Camelids (which is what llamas are) are similar to ruminants (e.g. cows, sheep & deer) in that they ferment plant fibre in a foregut in order to extract the nutrients they need.  They only have three "stomachs", or parts to the gut, unlike ruminants which have four, and they do not chew the cud like ruminants do.  Basically, though, the stuff that comes out of a llama's exhaust isn't all that different to what comes out of a cow (on which subject, it seems that camelids aren't quite as bad a ruminants for methane emissions.)

[keefer]

Was looking for something else but came across this great pic on Robert Carroll's Flickr.

82019_nrOlympia by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

I wondered how there could be a photo taken from the A4 'motorway' but, at the time, it was still the A4 West Cromwell Road (looking south)

I thought at first it's a bit far south to be stabling stock for Olympia but I didn't realise that that is the Earl's Court complex in the background. So maybe stock for there instead?

Presence of Cartic-4s means no earlier than 1966 - interesting that the nearest one seems to have some sort of fairings/covers installed at the near end?

Edited October 20, 2022 by keefer

[VIA185]

On 14/10/2022 at 14:24, Michael Hodgson said:

I thought some of them were used as steam heating boiler vans.  Was discussed before

 

 

I'm pretty certain the boiler vans were built new and just happened to look a bit like the horse boxes. The Colne valley Railway has/had a horse box converted to a generator van. (CJL)

[Steven B]

A few Mk1 horse boxes were converted to train heating boiler instruction cars but I don't recall seeing images of them used as pre-heaters at stations or carriage sidings:

 

Being fitted with a toilet, and with the increase in electrically powered heating, conversion to staff vans made more sense:

The Mk1 profile making it easy to replace the animal doors with regular windows.

 

Probably the closest a horse box got to carrying blue/grey livery was the same van a few years later:

https://www.departmentals.com/photo/321107-1

 

 

Steven B.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Steven B

[jim.snowdon]

On 16/10/2022 at 11:11, KeithHC said:

Am I right in thinking. Did OVS design the Gresley coaches when he was at Doncaster before he went south.

 

Keith

Unlikely. The real designer would have been the C&W Chief Draftsman, and he (and the C&W Drawing Office) would have followed the principles set down when Gresley was the GN's C&W Superintendent.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Unlikely. The real designer would have been the C&W Chief Draftsman, and he (and the C&W Drawing Office) would have followed the principles set down when Gresley was the GN's C&W Superintendent.

 

Was there a C&W Superintendent on Gresley's staff? Or was responsibility divided between the C&W DO Chief Draughtsman, as you say, and the C&W Works Manager? If so, who were they? Bulleid had held the latter position in the last few years of the Great northern - but his responsibility would have been for construction and maintenance, not design.

[Wickham Green too]

46 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

... Bulleid ... responsibility would have been for construction and maintenance, not design.

I suspect the introduction of underframe welding was very much Mr.Bulleid's baby.

[Compound2632]

55 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I suspect the introduction of underframe welding was very much Mr.Bulleid's baby.

 

Was that introduced in the period 1918-22, when he was Doncaster C&W Works Manager? 

[Wickham Green too]

A little later actually : "A more enthusiastic Bulleid contribution to the carriage and wagon development of the late twenties was the first welded carriage underframe." ( Bulleid Last Giant of Steam, Allen &  Unwin, 2nd edition, 1968, p.85 )

[Compound2632]

I think what I'm really looking for, to get a grip on this question, is an organisational chart of the LNER CME's Department.