Strange gauge, OO gauge track for narrow gauge locos

[PhilJ W]

Presumably for true P4 people would scratchbuild everything to 16mm gauge. I suppose one of the useful things about this is that it demonstrates 4’ 8 1/2” is just another gauge. It has become the one by which we define everything else to be ‘broad’ or ‘narrow’, but something else could easily have been selected - as it was in other parts of the world. To make things even more complicated I understand the Mount Washington Cog railway is 4’ 8”, although being American this might be better modelled in H0.

The ROD during WW1 termed 4' 8 1/2" as broad gauge to differentiate it from the 60 cm. 'narrow' gauge.

[Hando]

That's interesting, see if I was modelling the Mount Washington Cog Raiway, I would do it in OO scale, using H0 track for the gauge of the Railway, with finescale OO track to represent Standard Gauge, to show that Mt Washington is (only just) a narrow gauge railway

[009 micro modeller]

That's interesting, see if I was modelling the Mount Washington Cog Raiway, I would do it in OO scale, using H0 track for the gauge of the Railway, with finescale OO track to represent Standard Gauge, to show that Mt Washington is (only just) a narrow gauge railway

In 00 P4 track would be closer though - there’s only half a scale inch difference, about 0.16mm. Glasgow trams used 4’ 7 3/4” so that standard gauge wagons could run on their flanges in the shallower grooves of the tram rails. See here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Corporation_Tramways

[Tim V]

4' 2" is actually Outram's gauge, but it's a plateway gauge not an edge rail gauge. Plenty of examples of Outram's work in the country. If he had had his way, the standard gauge would have been 4' 2", not Stephenson's gauge. Maybe you could use a bit of freelance ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Outram

[Hando]

Plateway modelling is a whole different shabang as there were very few plateways, horse tramways or waggonways that had locos (Pen-y-darren, Middleton ect.)

I live near Loughborough and I know that there used to be a plateway connecting the Charnwood Forest Canal and the Grand Union Canal. It was built by William Jessop (one of Outram's colleagues at the Butterley Company) in 1794 and was the first edge-railway in the world built between 1789 and 1794; outdating the Lake lock Rail-road, with fish-belly rail, however it closed in 1808. There are very few remnants of it left, apart from Nanpantan Wharf. However, the rails have been pulled up and a few stone blocks are scattered around in odd places

 

I came to this knowledge when was writing a semi-fictional history of a fictional slate railway in Leicestershire, which used some historical accounts I obtained from several historical group's and council's PDFs and basis on several of the Welsh Railways.    I was going to build a saga of layouts on. This got de-railed (pardon the pun), when I realised someone else was building a garden railway of nearly the same places; just when I was writing it. One day, I may build the Swithland Railway...

Edited December 19, 2018 by Narrowgaugebeginner

[Red Devil]

I have built a test section of 16mm simulated girder rail to represent 4ft gauge Bradford trams, I have no idea as to what gauge you would call it, OO4-16? It's certainly not P4-16 as the groove is 0.7mm as opposed to the scale 0.45mm. When you start doing strange gauges it all gets fairly complicated!

[Hando]

My head hurts.

[009 micro modeller]

I have built a test section of 16mm simulated girder rail to represent 4ft gauge Bradford trams, I have no idea as to what gauge you would call it, OO4-16? It's certainly not P4-16 as the groove is 0.7mm as opposed to the scale 0.45mm. When you start doing strange gauges it all gets fairly complicated!

00n4? Getting back to the original idea of modelling 4ft+ narrow gauge lines on 00 track, I sense that plateways are less relevant as you would need to scratchbuild the track anyway. The Haytor Granite Tramway was 4’ 3” but was a stone block plateway with horse drawn wagons on unflanged metal wheels. It has been described as a giant Brio railway and after visiting it I had planned a model which was to use wooden track of this type, which helpfully turned out to be about 17mm across the middle. The difficulties with this were the movement (it was probably just going to be a diorama) and the lack of detailed paintings of the line when in operation (it was pre-photography).

[Jub45565]

I'm not quite sure this fits with the thoughts of the OP, but 00-SF at 16.2mm would be even closer to 4'.  The principle behind it being that RTR mechanisms will still run through it, but obviously means building the track.

 

Most (all?) 4' railways would need some degree of kit/scratchbuilding of stock, but going 16.2mm does allow for interoperability with other peoples stock if that is the incentive.

 

Obviously if the idea is to use RTR trackwork then this idea is irrelevant :-)

[009 micro modeller]

The only flaw I can think of is if you wanted 4’ and standard gauge on the same layout (as in my Erith suggestion) - they would need to be different gauges.

[Hando]

I'm not quite sure this fits with the thoughts of the OP, but 00-SF at 16.2mm would be even closer to 4'.  The principle behind it being that RTR mechanisms will still run through it, but obviously means building the track.

 

Most (all?) 4' railways would need some degree of kit/scratchbuilding of stock, but going 16.2mm does allow for interoperability with other peoples stock if that is the incentive.

 

Obviously if the idea is to use RTR trackwork then this idea is irrelevant :-)

 

All stock building would either be kitbashing (as Nile suggested on page 1) or scratchbuilding. 16.2mm would really be for finescale P4₄ (I'm going to start using my gauge terms that I created, so bear with me) modellers, which is fine but not quite my forte.

[Jub45565]

All stock building would either be kitbashing (as Nile suggested on page 1) or scratchbuilding. 16.2mm would really be for finescale P4₄ (I'm going to start using my gauge terms that I created, so bear with me) modellers, which is fine but not quite my forte.

 

No it isnt - 00-SF uses flangeway clearances suitable for standard 00 wheelsets and back to back - P4 uses tighter clearances all round, so shouldnt be included in the name as that would cause far more confusion (16mm to P4 standards would be fine with that terminology).

 

But yeah, as I said, I thought it might be outside the remit of the question - but just a thought.

[009 micro modeller]

If it helps in terms of terminology the small number of people using 8mm gauge in 4mm scale to more accurately represent 2’ gauge do sometimes refer to it as ‘008’. I’ve never heard anyone refer to the P4 standard for 1’ 11 1/2” (which I believe is to finer tolerances) as ‘007.83’ though.

[Hando]

I really meant P4 as the standard gauge as the scaler, so that OO gauge is what 4' gauge is meant to represent, e.g P4₄ means 4' gauge to P4 standards as opposed to 4' gauge on P4 track, like O-16.5 is O narrow gauge on 16.5mm (OO) track. I can understand the confusion though... I'm probably wrong about the OO-FS, so sorry in hindsight.

[Hando]

Ok, how about P4-16.5 and P4-16.2?

 

Edit: Waaaaaay too many numbers!

Edited December 19, 2018 by Narrowgaugebeginner

[009 micro modeller]

I think we may be getting sidetracked by the terminology - why not just explain what it is individually? I wonder whether a freelance layout would end up being that different from a standard 00 one though.

[Hando]

I think we may be getting sidetracked by the terminology - why not just explain what it is individually? I wonder whether a freelance layout would end up being that different from a standard 00 one though.

 

So what about 4'16.5 and 4'16.2, again we bump into the numbers problem; but it allows to look away from scales confusing everyone.

 

It would be different from standard OO layouts as all the locos are miniscule, a real treat for the eye!

Edited December 19, 2018 by Narrowgaugebeginner

[Jeff Smith]

Narrowgaugebeginner - I have sent you a PM

[009 micro modeller]

Perhaps not quite what you were after but this is Southend Cliff Railway: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b9W6Csdjobk

 

The main car is 4’ 6” gauge but there is only one - it is balanced by a counterweight running beneath the track on its own 1’ 9” gauge track. However given the small length and the lack of powered vehicles, as well as the importance of correct gauge in constructing the elevated structure, I think if I was modelling this I would actually build it to correct 18mm gauge just because it might as well be.

[Hando]

Ah yes, inclined Cliff lifts!

I love them, although they don't give much scope into modelling a landscape, but what makes them intriguing is that they are very mechanically interesting in that some are water-balanced which use simple physics and often the views they can provide can be nothing short of spectacular.

It turns out that there aren't many lifts around 4' - Standard gauge, some tend to be less, like Lynton and Lynmouth Cliff Railway at 3' 9'', while others such as Saltburn Cliff Lift are Standard gauge, whilst some like the Constitution Hill Railway in Aberystwyth are more than Standard gauge. The gauge can vary dramatically.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Narrowgaugebeginner

[Hando]

The limestone line I was thinking of was the Porthywaen Limeworks railway (just in Shropshire despite its Welsh name), illustrated in Industrial Narrow Gauge Album.^ Another interesting line was at Erith in Kent for moving loam for metal casting moulds, which interestingly ran parallel with a standard gauge industrial line (not explained in the source but apparently belonging to ‘Messrs Fraser’), both crossing Erith Council Tramways (standard gauge with normal tramway overhead wires) at right angles.* Would featuring standard gauge on the same layout mess things up though, unless it was represented by P4 or EM? In the same neck of the woods I think there was a 4’ 3” line near Sittingbourne which I could look up. The Erith line appears to have used very closely set side buffers, much narrower than Padarn or normal standard gauge spacing. Wagons in the picture are metal and inside framed.

 

^Andrew Neale, Industrial Narrow Gauge Album (East Harling: Plateway Press, 2009), p.90

*Ian Dean, Andrew Neale and David Smith, Industrial Railways of the South-East (Midhurst: Middleton Press, 2000), pictures 75 and 76

 

There is a picture of one of the Bagnalls from the Porthywaen Limeworks Railway in the link below:

See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/123709-4-gauge-railways/

I checked this by using the Narrow gauge railway Museum's website and they have a Bagnall builder's plate:

http://www.narrowgaugerailwaymuseum.org.uk/collections/industrial-railways/whitehaven-quarries-and-porthywaen-limeworks/

 

 

The solution to the standard gauge issue is to use P4 as standard gauge, as it is closest in scale, it makes life easier when trying to build 4' gauge railways to 1:76 scale.

[Jeff Smith]

If you are going to use P4 track for standard gauge, complete with P4 wheels and P4 check rail gaps in the turnouts, then you really should use the same standards for the 4' gauge track and wheels otherwise the two would look wrong together..

 

If using OO track and wheel standards for the 4' then EM would look sufficiently wider and can have the same wheel standards.

[009 micro modeller]

Ah yes, inclined Cliff lifts!

I love them, although they don't give much scope into modelling a landscape, but what makes them intriguing is that they are very mechanically interesting in that some are water-balanced which use simple physics and often the views they can provide can be nothing short of spectacular.

It turns out that there aren't many lifts around 4' - Standard gauge, some tend to be less, like Lynton and Lynmouth Cliff Railway at 3' 9'', while others such as Saltburn Cliff Lift are Standard gauge, whilst some like the Constitution Hill Railway in Aberystwyth are more than Standard gauge. The gauge can vary dramatically.

Cliff railways tended to use as wide a gauge as possible for stability - they were narrow gauge in cramped sites, but even then usually 3ft or more. One of the Scarborough lines was 7’ 6” although oddly the two that are still working there are both standard gauge; there’s also no reason for them to adopt a certain gauge as they don’t usually connect to anything else. I did a freelance funicular diorama for the Dave Brewer Challenge at Swanley a few years ago. It had to be NG obviously to be eligible for the challenge, but my normal 009 would be too narrow so I did 00n3, with a Triang TT chassis I had kicking around the place. I think I considered doing a 4ft line on normal 00 track but wanted to try 12mm gauge and avoid confusing matters. I can photograph the pages from the books I referenced and PM you them if you like, but didn’t want to post them openly in case of copyright issues. I seem to remember reading that Saltburn was 3’ 9”, later regauged to 4’ 2 1/2” although I doubt the regauging somehow. Bridgnorth from memory is 3’ 8 1/2”, I think within tolerances it was originally about the same as the Lynmouth line as they had the same designer/engineer. There’s a few continental 1200mm gauge lines (loco, including rack, as well as cable) and some 4’ 6” suburban in Japan (which of course also has 3’ 6” for the main network and SG for high speed lines) as well. Edited December 19, 2018 by 009 micro modeller

[Hando]

If you are going to use P4 track for standard gauge, complete with P4 wheels and P4 check rail gaps in the turnouts, then you really should use the same standards for the 4' gauge track and wheels otherwise the two would look wrong together..

 

If using OO track and wheel standards for the 4' then EM would look sufficiently wider and can have the same wheel standards.

 

Hmm... It would definitely make thing more complicated when trying to build it. However- anything goes in the name of scale...

[009 micro modeller]

In terms of cliff railways Douglas Falcon Cliff (later rebuilt at Port Soderick) was 4ft gauge, as was Douglas Head, all on the Isle of Man. The short-lived Queen’s Parade line in Scarborough may also have been 4ft gauge.

 

Source: Keith Turner, Cliff Railways of the British Isles (Usk: Oakwood Press, 2002), p.173

Edited December 20, 2018 by 009 micro modeller