Strange gauge, OO gauge track for narrow gauge locos

[Hando]

Okay,

 

I had a bit of brainstorming and thought to myself:

 

Is there a practical way to model gauges around 4'?

Then It dawned on me: OO gauge.

OO gauge isn't quite to scale (if you care about that sort of thing), so technically when in scale, OO gauge is 4' 1¹/₂''. So in theory, you can model 4' gauge railways in OO, with a accuracy out of 1¹/₂".

 

Does this make any sense? Is it worth making a layout using these standards -however odd?

I think yes. I would like to know what all you lot think...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alex

[Jeff Smith]

Which 4' railways did you have in mind? I can't think of many off to top of my head!

[brack]

Planning a model of the tharsis railway or port dinorwic?

[Jeff Smith]

See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/123709-4-gauge-railways/

[Nile]

This model could form the basis for a Padarn Railway loco :

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/sncf-030-steam-locomotive-green-yellow-livery.html

 

The chassis has appeared under several Jouef/Electrotren models.

[009 micro modeller]

I think it’s a great idea, although I sense it could cause some confusion when you explain to people that it’s narrow gauge, but the same scale and gauge that other people use to model standard gauge, if you see what I mean (even though 00 is actually closer to 4’ than 4’ 8 1/2”). I think the Dinorwic locos were actually quite small compared to standard gauge ones despite the similar gauge. If modelling a Padarn-inspired freelance line you would have to resist the temptation to make it too generic as people would assume it was a standard gauge line.

 

Edit: does that mean you could use EM for narrow gauge as well if you were modelling the Lee Moor Tramway (4’6”)?

Edited December 17, 2018 by 009 micro modeller

[TomJ]

You could also model the Glasgow subway!

[Fat Controller]

There's this one in Pembrokeshire:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saundersfoot_Railway

Quite a lot of the system is now a footpath.

[Hando]

Which 4' railways did you have in mind? I can't think of many off to top of my head!

 

Padarn Railway, Saundersfoot Railway, Redruth and Chasewater Railway, Glasgow Subway and possibly the Lee Moor Tramway

 

 

I know a bit about these lines, I thought that it would be a nice idea to do a layout on Saundersfoot. Although- I haven't any idea of making it yet...

I just wanted to give some ideas and a bit of inspiration to others, as I wondered the practicality and possibilities of this new "gauge".

 

 

I will do some research on the Tharsis Railway, as that is one I haven't heard of...

Edited December 18, 2018 by Narrowgaugebeginner

[009 micro modeller]

Padarn Railway, Saundersfoot Railway, Glasgow Subway and possibly the Lee Moor Tramway

 

 

I know a bit about these lines, I thought that it would be a nice idea to do a layout on Saundersfoot. Although- I haven't any idea of making it yet...

I just wanted to give some ideas and a bit of inspiration to others, as I wondered the practicality and possibilities of this new "gauge".

 

 

I will do some research on the Tharsis Railway, as that is one I haven't heard of...

Lee Moor was 4’ 6” gauge, not 4’. Wasn’t there another 4’ line in Mid Wales or possibly just over the border in England, more recently, involved with limestone quarries? There’s a few interesting lines here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:4_ft_gauge_railways

[Hando]

Sorry I forgot that Lee Moor was 4' 6'', but it still applies-

the topic is about gauges around 4'. I've also edited my last reply to mention the Redruth and Chasewater Railway (which was 4')

Edited December 18, 2018 by Narrowgaugebeginner

[Joseph_Pestell]

Nothing wrong with giving it a try if it is what you like. But I do think people will be confused unless you use suitable hand-built track which will look very different from 00 even if it has the same 16.5mm gauge.

[Hando]

So, "would track make much of a difference?", I know that the rails would definitely be lighter, so maybe using code 75 or even 50 ((!) fiddly!) for example, definitely not Set-track at 100!. But, what were the sleeper distances? I know that the Redruth and Chasewater Railway used the 'ancient' technique from early tramroads by using stone blocks clipped under the rails, but what about the Padarn Railway and Saundersfoot Railway, meanwhile does the Glasgow Subway even have sleepers; and if so, what is the spacing? So if any Glaswegians are here, could you tell me?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alex

Edited December 18, 2018 by Narrowgaugebeginner

[Moxy]

This model could form the basis for a Padarn Railway loco :

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/sncf-030-steam-locomotive-green-yellow-livery.html

 

The chassis has appeared under several Jouef/Electrotren models.

 

I like your thinking about using 00 for 4' or 4' 1 1/2" gauge.

 

How about that Jouef/Electrotren chassis and a Mainline J72 body? The J72 is a small 4mm scale loco so could be used as a possible basis for a narrow gauge loco.  There are plenty of them about on Ebay with split gears going cheap (obvious by the connecting rods at odd angles)

 

With a bit of gentle model bashing you could end up with something like Almathea or Dinorwic from the Padarn Railway.

 

Moxy

[009 micro modeller]

Lee Moor was 4’ 6” gauge, not 4’. Wasn’t there another 4’ line in Mid Wales or possibly just over the border in England, more recently, involved with limestone quarries? There’s a few interesting lines here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:4_ft_gauge_railways

The limestone line I was thinking of was the Porthywaen Limeworks railway (just in Shropshire despite its Welsh name), illustrated in Industrial Narrow Gauge Album.^ Another interesting line was at Erith in Kent for moving loam for metal casting moulds, which interestingly ran parallel with a standard gauge industrial line (not explained in the source but apparently belonging to ‘Messrs Fraser’), both crossing Erith Council Tramways (standard gauge with normal tramway overhead wires) at right angles.* Would featuring standard gauge on the same layout mess things up though, unless it was represented by P4 or EM? In the same neck of the woods I think there was a 4’ 3” line near Sittingbourne which I could look up. The Erith line appears to have used very closely set side buffers, much narrower than Padarn or normal standard gauge spacing. Wagons in the picture are metal and inside framed.

 

^Andrew Neale, Industrial Narrow Gauge Album (East Harling: Plateway Press, 2009), p.90

*Ian Dean, Andrew Neale and David Smith, Industrial Railways of the South-East (Midhurst: Middleton Press, 2000), pictures 75 and 76

Edited December 18, 2018 by 009 micro modeller

[Fat Controller]

The Saundersfoot used a Manning Wardle in later years (It closed and then re-opened). I'm pretty there were sleepers visible when I visited, but that would be 50 years ago...The line had at least one tunnel, I think under what was called Coppet Hall.There is an Oakwood Press book with some photos of the line in service.

[PhilJ W]

I would like to point out that 00/H0 track is only a scale half inch more out if used to represent 3' 6" gauge in 00. (7.5 inches as opposed to 7 inches). If you want to model 4' gauge using 16.5mm track what about using 1/72 scale? Plenty of figures and other scenic items available.

[009 micro modeller]

I would like to point out that 00/H0 track is only a scale half inch more out if used to represent 3' 6" gauge in 00. (7.5 inches as opposed to 7 inches). If you want to model 4' gauge using 16.5mm track what about using 1/72 scale? Plenty of figures and other scenic items available.

I think that makes it about 1 1/4 inches under scale compared to 1 1/2 over in 1:76. The Sittingbourne line is APCM Smeed Dean works, serving a clay pit, illustrated here with a Planet diesel: https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/6546062321 . There’s also a picture (number 32 in the Middleton Press book I mentioned earlier) of an Andrew Barclay 0-4-0ST called Wouldham at this site, which looks much like their standard gauge designs although the picture doesn’t include anything to help gauge the size of it. There’s another photo of this line in Industrial Railways in Colour: South by Michael Poulter (Clophill: Irwell Press, 2011, p.57). Off topic, but on the opposite page is a picture of a nearby system which was standard gauge but isolated from the mainline network and electrified with centre third rail.

[Jeff Smith]

16,5mm track can be used for 3'6" gauge in 5,5mm scale (1/55) however a narrow gauge version looks best due to the sleeper size and spacing.

[Hando]

I've done some research (if Wikipedia even counts!!!):

 

In official scale standards, OO gauge is scaled to real life in 4' 1 ¹/₂'', thus it is closer to 4' gauge. EM gauge is closer to 4' 6'', but technically it is scaled to real life in 4' 6 ¹/₂ inches. This gauge could be used to represent the Lee Moor Tramway ("Dartmoor" gauge), or some early Scottish Lines ("Scotch" gauge); a few of which had motive power, but it is really scraping the barrel). P4 is scale model standard gauge, without any real inaccuracy. The only problem we bumped into was Smeed Dean Cement Works, at 4' 3'', so a new track gauge would have to be created in order to deal with that; making things a bit difficult if you want to model it!

Edited December 18, 2018 by Narrowgaugebeginner

[009 micro modeller]

I've done some research (if Wikipedia even counts!!!):

 

In official scale standards, OO gauge is scaled to real life in 4' 1 ¹/₂'', thus it is closer to 4' gauge. EM gauge is closer to 4' 6'', but technically it is scaled to real life in 4' 6 ¹/₂ inches. This gauge could be used to represent the Lee Moor Tramway ("Dartmoor" gauge), or some early Scottish Lines ("Scotch" gauge); a few of which had motive power, but it is really scraping the barrel). P4 is scale model standard gauge, without any real inaccuracy. The only problem we bumped into was Smeed Dean Cement Works, at 4' 3'', so a new track gauge would have to be created in order to deal with that; making things a bit difficult if you want to model it!

4’ 3” is just as close to 00 as 4’ is, but 1 1/2 inches more rather than less.

[Ramblin Rich]

The Saundersfoot used a Manning Wardle in later years (It closed and then re-opened). I'm pretty there were sleepers visible when I visited, but that would be 50 years ago...The line had at least one tunnel, I think under what was called Coppet Hall.There is an Oakwood Press book with some photos of the line in service.

I spent many childhood holidays in Pembrokeshire and became interested in the Saundersfoot Railway during visits there. This book covers the system quite extensively:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Industrial-Saundersfoot-M-R-C-Price/dp/0850888662

There were effectively 2 parts to the line, one heading along the coast to Wiseman's Bridge using embankments and 3 tunnels through cliffs, then heading inland towards Stepaside. This part was the section the Manning Wardle loco 'Rosalind' ran.

The other section ran inland from the harbour, up a rope worked incline then up to collieries in the Begelly and Thomas Chapel areas. This section include a very low tunnel under the Pembroke & Tenby branch, only around 6'6" clearance if I remember right. There was another loco on this section called 'Bull Dog' a Kerr Stewart with low sling cab behind the main frames. More on Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saundersfoot_Railway

 

I recall seeing models of some stock a long time ago which used 00 guage track which seemed quite convincing, but no layout.

[Hando]

Rosalind and Bull Dog were particularly diminutive and miniscule, nothing near the same size as a normal standard gauge 0-4-0* due to their cab height, so it would definitely be a boundary against OO gauge.

*Not including the Flying Bufferbeam, or S&MLR Gazelle

 

I have some ideas for the "gauge" names:

OO - P4n4 (Protofour en four) or P4₄

EM - P4n4.5 (Protofour en four-five or Protofour en five) or P4_4.5

Edited December 19, 2018 by Narrowgaugebeginner

[Hando]

4’ 3” is just as close to 00 as 4’ is, but 1 1/2 inches more rather than less.

 

I didn't think that far ahead!

Oh well, it makes things easier now.

[009 micro modeller]

Rosalind and Bull Dog were particularly diminutive and miniscule, nothing near the same size as a normal standard gauge 0-4-0* due to their cab height, so it would definitely be a boundary against OO gauge.

*Not including the Flying Bufferbeam, or S&MLR Gazelle

 

I have some ideas for the "gauge" names:

OO - P4n4 (Protofour en four) or P4₄

EM - P4n4.5 (Protofour en four-five or

Protofour en five

) or P4_4.5

Presumably for true P4 people would scratchbuild everything to 16mm gauge. I suppose one of the useful things about this is that it demonstrates 4’ 8 1/2” is just another gauge. It has become the one by which we define everything else to be ‘broad’ or ‘narrow’, but something else could easily have been selected - as it was in other parts of the world. To make things even more complicated I understand the Mount Washington Cog railway is 4’ 8”, although being American this might be better modelled in H0.