The Royal Train

[ovbulleid]

13 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

While I agree that in principle we should be cautious of Wikipedia, the truth is that large chunks of the page were in fact correct - something which can only be the case if reasonably knowledgeable people have contributed to it.

 

The issue is that while a lot of reporting about the future London Bridge was correct when it was printed (and I shared the guardian article with colleagues rather than official documentation on some occasions as a helpful overview), the plans were massively revised into a number of potential options during Covid which weren’t widely shared. Plan A for DofE for example (Forth Bridge) looked more like QEQM’s funeral (Tay Bridge) but what took place was actually a relaxation of the most severe Covid plan. I believe it was while these modifications were being implemented that the train was removed from both their plans and never reinstated.

[phil-b259]

17 minutes ago, ovbulleid said:

The issue is that while a lot of reporting about the future London Bridge was correct when it was printed (and I shared the guardian article with colleagues rather than official documentation on some occasions as a helpful overview), the plans were massively revised into a number of potential options during Covid which weren’t widely shared. Plan A for DofE for example (Forth Bridge) looked more like QEQM’s funeral (Tay Bridge) but what took place was actually a relaxation of the most severe Covid plan. I believe it was while these modifications were being implemented that the train was removed from both their plans and never reinstated.

 

Agreed - though I have seen internet chatter which puts the deletion of the royal train happening in 2017, a full two years before Covid hit. Given how well the late Queen was regarded in her final few decades, I would have thought the use of the Royal train was simply becoming untenable from a crowd management perspective so its removal wouldn't have been a surprise.

 

Whether thats true or not is something which will have to be left for future generations to discover - but had the Royal train been ruled out back in 1990 say then I suspect it would have ended up being common knowledge by the time the Queen passed on.

[uax6]

Edited out again.... Grr!

 

 

Andy G

 

Heavily edited to try and keep a job!

Edited September 20, 2022 by uax6

[adanapress]

Pre 1946 the LNER made some use of the old 'pigpen' code for some high secure paperwork. Source of this info: The late Geoff. Ford,  when in BR days was District Motive Power at Norwich Thorpe, and was one of the 'Three Musketeers'  that were running the G.E. so successfully.   (A Former Gresley Premium Apprentice).

In later days  believe a code word ''Grove'' was relevant.

[APOLLO]

Grove and Deepdene were codes used for high security trains many years ago so I have read.

 

Brit15

[keefer]

IIRC GROVE was for HM on board.

Then you had DEEPDENE and DEEPLUS but not sure who was covered by each - maybe DoE and PoW?

I think the headcodes were 1X01, 1X02 & 1X03 respectively.

The 1950/60s BR Special Instructions are interesting - line in use kept clear, any other points leading to the line are clipped/locked, level crossing barriers closed and police personnel stationed at bridges/tunnels etc.

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Grove and Deepdene were codes used for high security trains many years ago so I have read.

 

Brit15

Grove and Deepdene Instructions were first issued in March 1942.  A big clue to the time at which they were introduced is the two words.  Many of us are familiar with The Grove from its later life as a BR Middle Management Training centre but it had been taken over by the LMS as an 'out of London' HQ during WWII.  Deepdene originated from a contemporaneous SR wartime 'out-of-London' base.  Just as well they didn't use one of the GWR equivalents which was Windsor - latterly a WR restaurant car staff training centre; a very good place to eat 😇

[The Stationmaster]

On 20/09/2022 at 16:56, Wheatley said:

Regardless of security concerns, trying to use a train configured as a secure travelling hotel to move a coffin 30 miles is clearly not sensible. That's exactly what the State Hearse is for.  That wasn't magicked out of thin air either so it's presumably been part of the plan for a  while. 

 

My own involvement with the Royal Train was when the then PoW  stayed overnight outside one of my signalboxes. I was given my orders the  day before and they consisted of (essentially) "Get there at HH:MM, don't be late, make sure the signalman is awake, don't be wandering about taking bloody photos of everything and make sure you hand these instructions  back in afterwards. And don't forget your hat."  

Where I was in the mid '70s we had a regular stabling spot for the train during overnight journeys although during my time there we never had a Royal, i.e. with the sovereign onboard.  But we did have a number of Special Trains with, at various times, one or other of HM's offspring on board.

 

Anyway on one particular occasion I and the Divisional Chief Signalling Inspector were present in the signal box for the arrival of the train, which reached us over a single line worked by electric token.  At the remote end of the section trains were given the token at the station in rear of the junction and on this particular night just after the train had left there the chap who had handed over the token to the Driver rang our 'box and told the Signalman that the tail lamp was out on the train although he thought that it was there.   The Signalman, rather gleefully I thought, very rapidly passed on the message to me and the Chief DI - problem dealt with as far as he was concerned!

 

We looked at each and simultaneously voiced the same conclusion - that we would find out when the train arrived.  It had been running on a fully track-circuited TCB route and was now the only train on the single line so 'no further action' was our decision.  I tipped off the Groundman at the entrance to the curve where it was to stable to watch out for the tail lamp - it was burning brightly when the train passed him.  

 

Alas, like many, that stabling spot has long gone and in later years those sort of changes resulted in myself and local BTP officers carrying out a search for new spots in the far west.  The result was not good - my preferred spot wasn't liked by BTP ecause it was too far to walk from where they could park vehicles; their preferred spot was a traffic siding not far from the branch ine siding led off and leading to a mucky private siding but they could get to it almost alongside the train with their vehicles.  What they missed was the adjacent public footpath which they didn't close and the vociferous locals who used it.  Next trip down that way and the train went to my preferred spot, and has done ever since.

Edited September 22, 2022 by The Stationmaster
Typos

[APOLLO]

Oh Mr Porter what will we do

H.M. wanted to go to Birmingham and she's ended up at Crewe Wigan Wallgate

Take her back to London as quickly as you can

Oh Mr Porter what a silly ***** I am !!!!

 

 

Edited to add - 29th June 1985, the Queen was visiting Southport.

 

Brit15

Edited September 22, 2022 by APOLLO

[jamie92208]

Crigglestone curve, nowclifted was a regular in West Yorks.. i have seen both Princess Dianna's train and HM's train down there.  There were other spits all niw closed.  St John's colliery sidings near Goose Hill Junction, also gone, was used as a teatime parking spot berween engagements  during the Silver Jubilee..  as Mike has mentioned it must be getting harder and harder to fi d such places.  However they are much more discrete and easier to secure than a city centre hotel.

 

Jamie

[Wheatley]

Second hand story from a Very Senior (in all senses) railwayman:

 

For the occasion of HMQ's visit to Silverwood Colliery in 1975 the Royal Train was stabled on the colliery branch, and as only Wath men signed the branch the job of finding a driver was given to my colleague. He merely looked  down the roster for the nearest spare  turn to the required time, checked the spare man's route card to ensure he signed where the train was going next and  rostered him. 

 

When his boss found out there was consternation. The man chosen was  a  freight driver to his boots, preferred a  flat cap to his uniform cap and was permanently surgically attached to a  tab end. He was also likely to answer any greeting from Her Majesty, should they meet, with "Ey up love". He was replaced.   

 

The shiny replacement driver was having a nice chat with the accompanying Traction Inspector as they headed along the main line away from the branch, missed the  warning board for a TSR, wiped the clock on seeing the 'C' board and spilled the Royal bath water.   

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

"The Grove" was an LMS wartime establishment and Deepdene Hotel its SR equivalent.  History here

http://rastall.com/grove/projectx.html

 

Deeplus was a level of protection intermediate between the two. 

 

I am aware of at least three versions of the BR special instructions booklets concerning royal trains, there is no mention of royalty in the booklets, merely that the instructions apply to trains telegraphed un these codewords. 

As well as what lamps the train should carry, the booklets include some details of additional security measures such as closing level crossings, stopping shunting - keeping other trains out of the way, and not running a train on a parallel line that would enable the riff-raff to gawp in !  

 

There are various amusing stories concerning royal trains, for example

http://www.wolfertonroyalstation.co.uk/whistle-blower/

 

The SRS journal a couple of years back included an article which mentioned the train passing through Ely, inadvertently routed via the avoiding line, only signalled for goods trains and the train accepted that route.  Another concerned a signalman irritated by the previous conduct of security guards looking to treat any gestures from on board as "signs of alarm" as an exuse to throw the signals back to Danger!

[Steven B]

Does anyone know what the third coach is in this train?

 

Royal Train At Todmorden. by Neil Harvey 156, on Flickr

 

 

It'll be interesting to see if King Charles continues to use the coach he had whilst Prince of Wales or if he'll switch to the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh's saloon.

 

 

 

Steven B.

['CHARD]

4 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Does anyone know what the third coach is in this train?

 

Royal Train At Todmorden. by Neil Harvey 156, on Flickr

 

Is that the ex-Chairman's saloon, LNWR 5000 of 1920 vintage? 

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

Is that the ex-Chairman's saloon, LNWR 5000 of 1920 vintage? 

He came to Todmorden quite often due to some charity connections in that area.  I was on the station one day to show some visiti g overseas senior police officers how the visit was policed.

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

Is that the ex-Chairman's saloon, LNWR 5000 of 1920 vintage? 

Yes but by then numbered 45000 and used as the Train Officer's saloon.  A regular in the formation for some years as a number of the various people doing the Train Officer's job were rather fond of it.

 

Definitely not a Royal Train in that picture as the formation is far too short for a full Royal.  So it would have been  'a Special Train' (and was carrying the Prince of wales so definitely not a Royal Train although the same sort of stock but a different principal saloon..

[jamie92208]

Having mentioned the Crigglestone curve I've found a few photos of a special working on it.  Early 1987 when it was still a through line connected at both ends.  I had just dropped my daughter off at school in Horbury and nipped down to Horbury Junction to see the train that I knew would be there.  Dianna had spent the night looking at the oh so beautiful scenic delights of Crigglestone.   There had been no reports of her having been seen in any of the nightclubs in Wakefield earlier. Here a nice and clean 47 had come off Healey Mills to take her eastwards.

The rear 3 coaches.

Most of the train.  45000 is there.

Setting off towards Wakefield Kirkgate.  A rather more lowly conveyance heading for Huddersfield.

And off it went.  The Crigglestone line is in the foreground.

A very grubby 47 had kept it warm overnight and then drawn it out from the curve then the clean 47 backed on.  I wish I had got a picture of the grubby 47, quite a contrast.

 

When I walked past HM's train on the same branch one night (with permission from BTP) the branch had been severed and was only accessible from the Barnsley end.  Now gone completely.

 

Jamie

 

[The Stationmaster]

My most amusing occasion involving one of the Specials was when it was over-powered trying to get from  the stabling spot to the unloading location further along a branch in the west.  After a couple of goes it was decided not try it any more and the PoW had to walk a bit further than usual to get to the gap in the fence through which he exited railway property.

 

In the excitement the Royal picnic breakfast was overlooked and only found after HRH had gone.  So the household staff on the train decreed that it should be returned to Kensington Palace.  it was duly despatched Londonwards 'in the care of the Guard' (actually of course a succession of Guards due to crew changes on the way).   And I was required to go up from Swindon to collect it at Paddington and deliver it to Kensington Palace - for which I had to borrow the Area car.

 

I had been given instructions about what to do in order to gain entry and get past the police check points and they had been given the car number.  On arrival at the first check-point I lowered the window to explain my mission to the copper and he duly replied 'So you're the bloke with the breakfast' - with a huge smile on his face.  He directed me to the second check point where I was yet again greeted by a grinning copper as 'the bloke with the breakfast' and he told me where I had to park the car and what I should next.  In due course I presented myself at the relevant  'Tradesmen's Entrance', rang the doorbell and waited.  The bell was duly answered by a chap of Fillipino appearance to whom I handed the cardboard box containing the breakfast in exchange for some very warm thanks for delivering it.

 

As I drove back past the two check points I got a cheery wave from the coppers  - both of whom were clearly trying very hard not to show an excessive amount of grinning (or to burst out laughing).

[keefer]

3 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

A very grubby 47 had kept it warm overnight

Would it not have been the Mk2b Power Brake (1st coach in your pics, 2905 at that time) that supplied the on-board power?

[jamie92208]

33 minutes ago, keefer said:

Would it not have been the Mk2b Power Brake (1st coach in your pics, 2905 at that time) that supplied the on-board power?

That was just my presumption that it was supplying ETH. It had certainly been coupled up overnight and was also needed to draw it back off the branch.  Perhaps using the power brake all night disturbed the occupants.  I know not.

 

Jamie

[MyRule1]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Many of us are familiar with The Grove from its later life as a BR Middle Management Training centre

OT for this thread so I have started a new thread here

To talk about The Grove

[APOLLO]

Somewhere, up in'th loft I have a copy of this.

 

 

Brit15

[nightstar.train]

9 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

Is that the ex-Chairman's saloon, LNWR 5000 of 1920 vintage? 

 

As The Stationmaster mentioned it had been numbered 45000. It was also placed on a standard Mk1 underframe (57ft variety) with Pullman gangways. It was still wooden bodied though. 

[keefer]

GROVE_instructions.pdf

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

That was just my presumption that it was supplying ETH. It had certainly been coupled up overnight and was also needed to draw it back off the branch.  Perhaps using the power brake all night disturbed the occupants.  I know not.

 

Jamie

The 'power brakes' were used overnight but I think it may have depended on the location and the length of the train.  Some of those (railway staff) onboard certainly didn't like the noise judging by what they had to say about the thing despite them being well silenced.  Of course before ETH fitted locos on the on-train gen set(s) had to be used.