Hornby R3771 'Bittern" Tooling Change

[Ribird]

Just noticed this (it may have been reported already) but Hornby's new Bittern tooling has been changed from having valances to not having any.

 

Picture from Hornby (not my photo):

 

Picture from Hattons website (not my photo):

 

 

I was hoping to have a Bittern with valances, but looks like I will have to spend some money for a "Great Gathering" Bittern.

[Hilux5972]

Yes I reported on here a while ago. Without valences is correct for as she is now, which is what the model is intended to represent. I contacted Paul Isles from Hornby just after the new range was announced and he confirmed it would be correctly without valences and the image would be changed in due course as it now has been.

[Hilux5972]

If you want a bittern with valences it would be far cheaper to buy a Mallard and rename/renumber than to shell out the ridiculous prices being asked for great gathering/goodbye versions. 

[adb968008]

The only issue I see with this model, is unless your able to gain access to Margate, very few people have ever seen it in this condition, as it certainly has never worked in this condition, and Margate doesn’t have public access.

 

With 2 tenders, it was 4492 Dominion of New Zealand with silver numbers/letters.

 

Changing the tooling to without valances reduces its usability even further, as in this guise, even with 1 tender, it was only working without valances at 2015 at the Mid hants /Bluebell, afaik it had valances on the Mainline as 4464 until the end.  

 

It might be as  privately stored behind closed doors today, but for running as a model Its cabinetware or a rule 1 model really, unless you model Bluebell / Mid hants in 2015 and dont use the second tender.

Edited March 25, 2019 by adb968008

[Ribird]

8 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Yes I reported on here a while ago. Without valences is correct for as she is now, which is what the model is intended to represent. I contacted Paul Isles from Hornby just after the new range was announced and he confirmed it would be correctly without valences and the image would be changed in due course as it now has been.

 

8 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

If you want a bittern with valences it would be far cheaper to buy a Mallard and rename/renumber than to shell out the ridiculous prices being asked for great gathering/goodbye versions. 

Ah yes, didn’t see your post when I did a search before posting. And is this how Bittern is going to operate from now on with this livery after the overhaul?

 

But problem is, Mallard has a non-corridor tender, while Bittern does. And the only recent model I can find of a streamlined corridor tender, is on Bittern from the Great Gathering. That’s why I preorder this, due to it having both valances and a corridor tender, but oh well I’ll still be getting this.

[adb968008]

Bittern isn’t under going an overhaul, it is in secure long term storage.

 

 

 

[Ribird]

6 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Bittern isn’t under going an overhaul, it is in secure long term storage.

 

 

 

I thought that’s why it was sent there, to be in queue for an overhaul?

[adb968008]

Afaik there’s no current plan for overhaul, In theory, every non-working preserved locomotive is in a queue, from that perspective.

 

LSL is overhauling 60532 Blue Peter, and is closer aligned to 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley which is due to steam soon.

 

with 70000,34046, 45231 and 46100 operational, and 5029, 35027 waiting, 6024 to join the fleet I think it could be in Margate for a good few years yet (which is why it was sent there, out of the way, safe and under cover).

 

Its a “how long is a piece of string question”, I remember the Crew supporting 6000 putting a donation box in front of it to raise funds for overhaul in 1987, and 6229 was planned for overhaul back in 2010, later delayed to 2018 and now not listed in the just published 15 year plan before 2034.

 

Maybe Margate May open to the public at some point, in which case it definitely would be the focal exhibit, In the form it’s being modelled and so may resonate to those who may then get to see it, but for now it’s quite definitely in long term safe secure seclusion.

Edited March 25, 2019 by adb968008

[Roy Langridge]

42 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Afaik there’s no current plan for overhaul, In theory, every non-working preserved locomotive is in a queue, from that perspective.

 

LSL is overhauling 60532 Blue Peter, and is closer aligned to 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley which is due to steam soon.

 

with 70000,34046, 45231 and 46100 operational, and 5029, 35027 waiting, 6024 to join the fleet I think it could be in Margate for a good few years yet (which is why it was sent there, out of the way, safe and under cover).

 

Its a “how long is a piece of string question”, I remember the Crew supporting 6000 putting a donation box in front of it to raise funds for overhaul in 1987, and 6229 was planned for overhaul back in 2010, later delayed to 2018 and now not listed in the just published 15 year plan before 2034.

 

Maybe Margate May open to the public at some point, in which case it definitely would be the focal exhibit, In the form it’s being modelled and so may resonate to those who may then get to see it, but for now it’s quite definitely in long term safe secure seclusion.

 

 92212 will join that list shortly. Ok, she will never be mainline, but it is another of LSL / Jeremy Hosking's locos that is about to be out of ticket. Shame, as I love firing her.

Roy

[Hilux5972]

She is planned for overhaul. This is from the Icons of Steam website

[Hilux5972]

2 hours ago, Ribird said:

 

Ah yes, didn’t see your post when I did a search before posting. And is this how Bittern is going to operate from now on with this livery after the overhaul?

 

But problem is, Mallard has a non-corridor tender, while Bittern does. And the only recent model I can find of a streamlined corridor tender, is on Bittern from the Great Gathering. That’s why I preorder this, due to it having both valances and a corridor tender, but oh well I’ll still be getting this.

If you will still be buying the double tender Bittern then you could buy mallard and rename it and then have the option of running it either with or without valences.

[Roy Langridge]

7 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

She is planned for overhaul. This is from the Icons of Steam website

Snip

 

But that article is inaccurate and things have moved on since then. She is not at LNWR Crewe and is not currently planned for overhaul*, at least as far as I know given the discussion with an LSL rep not long ago - hence the move to Margate.

 

*As said above, there is probably a planned list of priorities, but she is not near the top.

Roy

[adb968008]

39 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

She is planned for overhaul. This is from the Icons of Steam website

That article was written 3+ years back, before LSL at Margate existed.

note the future tense, with regards its last operational date at the Bluebell, in November 2015.

 

she then moved to Crewe, and later to Margate.

shes a lovely loco, I rode at 92.5mph begind her in 2013 and I think I’ve enough years in my life to ride behind her again.

But 60532 and 60007 joining, 4464 can rest. I reckon it’s a decade before she steam’s again.

60009 is probably more focal, unlike 4464, its owner wants to turn her to a mausoleum and permanent retirement, with only a few months left to run on its “ticket” to get some steam miles in..

Edited March 25, 2019 by adb968008

[Ribird]

1 hour ago, Hilux5972 said:

If you will still be buying the double tender Bittern then you could buy mallard and rename it and then have the option of running it either with or without valences.

I did see a Great Gathering Bittern without tender on EBay for a cheaper price, might pick that up. Would I have to worry about the tender pickup cord being compatible with a Mallard or Great Gathering Bittern?

[Steamport Southport]

It's in the queue.

 

It was moved because of a lack of space at LNWR and the threat of vandalism. When that space is cleared then it's going back to Crewe for overhaul.

 

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

Getting a blue tender for that model is probably an easier option than getting a 4464 front without renumbering...

 

that said, I saw the same item on ebay, note the front numbers on it are printed too high and obscured partially by the lamp bracket, which was an issue for some of those GG models.

 

But  it’s a good start for the January- July 2013 model, and to make it Jul 2013 until end of Mainline service in 2014 it only needs the commerative plaques from those 2013 90mph runs adding.

Edited March 25, 2019 by adb968008

[adb968008]

 

20 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

It's in the queue.

 

It was moved because of a lack of space at LNWR and the threat of vandalism. When that space is cleared then it's going back to Crewe for overhaul.

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 In theory, every non-working preserved locomotive is in a queue, from that perspective.

 

 

35027 has been in the queue since 2004, under the same ownership as 4464, and it’s not in “long term storage”.

35022 has been in the queue since  May 1966.

 

The “queue” means nothing, even being fully dismantled carries no guarantees (42859 for one).

 

https://theisleofthanetnews.com/2018/05/23/steam-train-bittern-first-exhibit-to-be-housed-at-former-Hornby-hobbies-site/

This Article here indicates it will go on eventual public display at Margate, which suggests something more long term.

Edited March 25, 2019 by adb968008

[G-BOAF]

Well, a suitable purchase for renumbering as 4498 as operating from 1960s to 1990s (and in the 1960s a simple renumber plus OHL flash changes, anything later will requrie complete lettering removal and replacement with etched lettering/silver front numbers). Significant in that its the first garter blue post 2005 A4s without valencing (I think)

[Ribird]

13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Getting a blue tender for that model is probably an easier option than getting a 4464 front without renumbering...

 

that said, I saw the same item on ebay, note the front numbers on it are printed too high and obscured partially by the lamp bracket, which was an issue for some of those GG models.

 

But  it’s a good start for the January- July 2013 model, and to make it Jul 2013 until end of Mainline service in 2014 it only needs the commerative plaques from those 2013 90mph runs adding.

I see that now with the numbers! Thanks for the heads up there! I think it’ll be easier to find a whole model of Bittern than finding a tender to match. Seems like GG Bittern and the new one is the only lner streamlined corridor made in recent years 

[Ribird]

2 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Well, a suitable purchase for renumbering as 4498 as operating from 1960s to 1990s (and in the 1960s a simple renumber plus OHL flash changes, anything later will requrie complete lettering removal and replacement with etched lettering/silver front numbers). Significant in that its the first garter blue post 2005 A4s without valencing (I think)

Which model would that be then? I don’t think I understand what you are saying. Plus I’m looking for 2013 Bittern without spending the big bucks for a GG Bittern

[G-BOAF]

6 minutes ago, Ribird said:

Which model would that be then? I don’t think I understand what you are saying. Plus I’m looking for 2013 Bittern without spending the big bucks for a GG Bittern

Sorry, my comment was a general observation on the potential use of the the re-specified R3771 Bittern without valances.

 

If you want a 2013 Bittern you are now somewhat stuck, sorry. I would also say that at any rate, the GG/GB models were not Hornby at its finest in terms of decoration or build quality, and you'd be better off waiting for a future release of a valanced corridor tender LNER A4 and fitting a double chimney to get Bittern in 2013.

[Ribird]

8 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Sorry, my comment was a general observation on the potential use of the the re-specified R3771 Bittern without valances.

 

If you want a 2013 Bittern you are now somewhat stuck, sorry. I would also say that at any rate, the GG/GB models were not Hornby at its finest in terms of decoration or build quality, and you'd be better off waiting for a future release of a valanced corridor tender LNER A4 and fitting a double chimney to get Bittern in 2013.

Ah like Sir Nigel in the 90’s?

 

And when converting a single chimney to a double, the top lamp iron and whistle have to move, correct? Or was that when the A4’s got converted to BR?

[Steamport Southport]

34 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

 

 

35027 has been in the queue since 2004, under the same ownership as 4464, and it’s not in “long term storage”.

35022 has been in the queue since  May 1966.

 

The “queue” means nothing, even being fully dismantled carries no guarantees (42859 for one).

 

https://theisleofthanetnews.com/2018/05/23/steam-train-bittern-first-exhibit-to-be-housed-at-former-Hornby-hobbies-site/

This Article here indicates it will go on eventual public display at Margate, which suggests something more long term.

 

What has anything whatsoever about the Crab or a Barry wreck got to do with Bittern going into temporary storage?  

 

it moved to Margate because it was under threat of vandalism.

 

Source. Someone who knows what they are talking about not a threepenny bit newspaper that even describes it as a "steam train".

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

38 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

What has anything whatsoever about the Crab or a Barry wreck got to do with Bittern going into temporary storage?  

 

it moved to Margate because it was under threat of vandalism.

 

Source. Someone who knows what they are talking about not a threepenny bit newspaper that even describes it as a "steam train".

 

 

Jason

You missed out 35027 in your counter argument ..

 

A. its not in Margate

B. it’s just as exposed as any other loco.

C. it’s in the queue

D. it’s owned by the same person.

E. it’s been overhauled in preservation

F. It’s been in the queue for over 15 years

G. it undermines your argument ?

 

Steam Railway June 2018  

Article “NO FIRM PLANS’ TO OVERHAUL BITTERN AS ‘A4’ MOVES TO MARGATE”

“Out-of-ticket ‘A4’ No. 4464 Bittern is set to remain in its new home of Kent indefinitely as it awaits its turn in the overhaul queue at Crewe.”

 

icons of steam (LSLs own front page) says nothing other than “awaiting its place in the queue”

http://www.iconsofsteam.com/locos/bittern/

 

Rail Advent quotes LSLs press release about display...

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2018/05/steam-locomotive-bittern-to-be-moved-to-former-Hornby-site.html

 

Local MP for Margate talks about a “world class museum”.

https://www.craigmackinlay.com/news/2018/5/30/craig-visits-the-Hornby-margate-site-in-anticipation-of-world-class-locomotive-museum

 

I dont dispute it’s in a queue (every engine not working is in a queue), but I don’t attach expectation where none has been assigned. If/when LSL announce it then it’s official, until then it’s not.

 

If you want to excite the forum with plans of imminent overhaul i’m Sure it would raise lots of cheers, but I’ve heard all kinds of stuff at platform ends from “someone who knows”,   4 freshly overhauled Merchant Navies were going to be in steam for Waterloo 50th in 2017...and that was from someone who part owned one.

 

 

Sorry if my lack of faith offends, but I go with what’s published... 

 

All those “threepenny bits” talk about storage, Margate, display and no short term overhaul.. I don’t read anything other than eventually someday hope of an overhaul from that from current published sources... but hang on to hope, as unlike 60009, no one is saying never ever.

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by adb968008

[G-BOAF]

35 minutes ago, Ribird said:

Ah like Sir Nigel in the 90’s?

 

And when converting a single chimney to a double, the top lamp iron and whistle have to move, correct? Or was that when the A4’s got converted to BR?

yes, like Sir Nigel in the 1970s to 1990s.

 

The whistle moved when the Double Chimney was fitted. The top lamp iron moved earlier, I think during WW2 on the A4s. Presumably for easy of fitting lamps/headboards. Moving the lamp iron is not something I have comtemplated on an A4 as given the finish of the streamlined front, the need for careful filling and painting are beyond my capabilities. It is also about 1mm of movement.