Hornby 66s

[Coryton]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

But they are specials, thats why they've sold so well, people like celebrity locos, Hornby has beaten everyone to the punch and got them on the street...5 of the 9 were celebrities (1 is from 2018’s range)...

 

As it stands I think the shelf life of the Hornby 66’s is limited, they might be first (and hit the Hornby cash register), but once the sexy ones start to arrive, a few people might start to think twice and these could start creeping back to the market as cheap s/h... ok not Hornbys problem.

 

 

Maybe.

 

But I suspect that these are selling well because of the price, not because they turned up first.

 

There are people out there - I suspect a lot more than it would seem by following this forum - who would very much prefer a less detailed £75 locomotive than a beautifully detailed £150 one.

[Legend]

53 minutes ago, Richard Croft said:

I agree. A lot of people I know have bought these. £150 is a lot for a model so I can see why these £75 ones are tempting for people. Regardless of what other models are released there will always be a market for these lower priced models. Hornby have got it right with these.

 

Richard

 

Well it is as simple as you can get two for the price of one . So if you are sitting there thinking I should get DBS livery but I really fancy a GBRf one , you can go ahead and get both.  Ok you are sacrificing fidelity  but you've got a wider range of motive power

 

I note the comment made from Lyndon , do more with less . Surely this means 156, 86,90,91 are all candidate for the same treatment , perhaps with 37s and 47s  .  There is most definitely a market out there for reasonably detailed models at a decent price .

 

Hornby really are to be commended for this initiative and catering for the "lower" end of the market

Edited April 26, 2019 by Legend

[Ouroborus]

The 156 is already planned for the RAF livery

 

[Legend]

1 minute ago, Ouroborus said:

The 156 is already planned for the RAF livery

 

 

Agreed , but there's so much more . East Midlands , Scotrail (again- maybe with a better livery rendition this time , darker blue, grey roof , not so plastic looking) Anglia etc

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

Agreed , but there's so much more . East Midlands , Scotrail (again- maybe with a better livery rendition this time , darker blue, grey roof , not so plastic looking) Anglia etc

 

Looking at some of the older mouldings around, they really are quite good but the original models were let down compared to today's standards by the livery application.

 

With modern painting/printing on an old mould, you can end up with what is really a rather good model, and I would say in many cases the big difference in appearance is between the same model with modern and old livery, not between a modern super-detailed and more basic model. Especially when they are running round on a layout.

[dagrizz]

My trainset is 60's steam/diesel based and I have not considered models much outside this timeframe before, but I was in my local model shop last week and saw 66779 'Evening Star' on sale for £67.50 and thought it looked nice so I bought it on impulse. It looks good amongst other '60's stock and runs well - handles 6 Bachmann Mk 1 coaches with ease. I would not have bought it if it had been more expensive; Hornby have therefore gained a sale from me without hurting sales of the high spec model.

 

I've also bought the Railroad GWR railcar for £45 recently. Again looks good and runs well. As I like to play trains, there is a lot of handling of my models and I find the highly detailed ones readily disintegrate, especially steam locos. So I might be a clumsy oaf but what I prefer are robust models that look OK when in motion on the layout. I'll be keeping a lookout for future Railroad releases.

 

Graham   

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, Legend said:

 

Well it is as simple as you can get two for the price of one . So if you are sitting there thinking I should get DBS livery but I really fancy a GBRf one , you can go ahead and get both.  Ok you are sacrificing fidelity  but you've got a wider range of motive power

 

its fallacy to think one sale doesn't affect another.. if you get 2 for 1, you dont get the “1” but the other two instead.

 

what happens to the hobby if all the other manufacturers see their detailed models left on the shelf, whilst cheaper less accurate ones fly out.....

 

true there maybe overlap, somebuying cheap Hornby may still by a Hattons one, some might trade in their Hattons one etc.. but to the manufacturer its a numbers game..

 

it costs x to design, manufacturer and tool each model.

x is divided by models made... x/y...

y= number of estimated models to sell 

x/y = z... z is the cost price.

w is the price you pay.

w-z is the gross profit.

 

as long as w*y makes an increase over x then your ok.

but if Hornby is selling at 0.5w *2 for each sale... then your y goes down by 1 if not by 2... putting x at risk with every sale.

 

Modellers do seem at odds, theres pages on here about accuracy of the Terriers buffers and the Dean goods rivets, but no one cares about the extra door etc on a 66... maybe its modern image modellers who will accept any old quality as long as its cheap ?.. it did afterall work for Lima...

 

perhaps theres life in the Railroad 50/55 yet.

 

 

Maybe there is hope however.. Hornbys railroad mk1s are good, and under £40. A railroad motor can be had for under £75.

 

maybe Hornby could put the 73/101/vep/bel/bil/hap motor inside some mk1 frame footprints , and rustle up some 1st gen overhead 4 car EMUs, at Railroad quality in the £200 range instead of duplicating toolings.

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by adb968008

[Chrisr40]

To add my two penneth to the super detail v older tooling debate - I am fortunate in having examples of both. What gets played with the most ? (Because we are playing trains after all) - the more utilitarian, less detailed models because you don't have to worry about snagging sand pipes or knocking off handrails. You can pick them up without consulting the handbook and they allow younger hobbyists ie my kids to have the excellent modern running qualities without forcing dad or mum to hold their breath each time a loco is picked up to be run. Yes they aren't 100% accurate but then again neither are the super detail versions where for example steam locomotives are powered by electricity and don't need water or  coal. Consumers aren't daft and the success of a product depends if there's a ready market that wants what you are offering. If there are thousands of us hobbyists who will expire unless we have the most accurate 66 possible then the Hornby versions will sit on the shelves. The fact they aren't speaks for itself.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Chrisr40
Spelling

[Hroth]

On a whim, I had a look this evening for a "Flying Dustman".  All the major retailers are out of stock, googling Hornby R3779 threw up a couple of examples in stock elsewhere and a number at rather more than even the "list" price on ebay, though a couple could be excused due to either being custom weathered or having a TTS decoder fitted.

 

Another indication that they have sold well is that Hattons only have 9 of R3778 (DB Cargo UK Red) and 5 of R3784 (GBRf "Golden Jubilee").  An older release, R3573 (GBRf "Inspiration Delivered..." at £85) has 4 examples left.

 

So I think it might be said that this was a successful release!

 

(I weakened and bought a "Flying Dustman" today...)

Edited May 6, 2019 by Hroth
clarification and update

[TRAILRAGE]

I cannot understand some peoples negativity towards these models. Yes there budget. No they aren't super detailed Models but they also don't pretend to be as they are aimed at the lower end of the market and so cannot be compared in the same league as the others. Yes there is a missing door, Missing side step, Smaller roof grille wrong cabside windows, wrong light clusters, a Chassis that's to wide due to old Lima pancake Motor and a Fuel tank that's to big, but  does my son care ? Not one bit as it looks like a Class 66 runs beautifully and can pull a fair amount.  IF these things bother you the simple answer is don't buy them!  At the end of the day Hornby are in business to make money and if this helps them to survive and keep their staff in Jobs, who are we to complain. Personally I think Hornby made the right decision in producing these at an affordable price and if the hardcore haters don't like it they don't have to buy it. No one is forcing you. 

One of the problem I and maybe a lot of other people have is the lack of disposable income.  On the run up to Christmas I wasn't even sure I was gonna have a Job. A situation a lot of people are still in. So the options are less.  If I can get two Loco's for the price of one that's what I'm going to do as it makes financial sense. When I purchased my Bachmann 66's I never paid more than £56 for them until me Wifey bought me the Kernow/Bachmann DRS/Freightliner one for £74 as it was on offer. Having a 5 year old boy who loves trains and 66's  in particular I can get something we both enjoy and I don't have to worry about loosing details either. Its a win win situation. 

 

Apologies if this sounds like a rant, it's not meant to be.

 

As an aside the ability to purchase some chassis's would allow us to modify to low emission versions with a bit of work the should come off ok.  Have a look at James Makin's  conversion of the original Bachmann 66 for some inspiration.

 

Happy Modelling all 

 

Cheers Trailrage   

 

PS here you go 

 

https://www.wellsgreen-tmd.co.uk/demuupdate46.htm

Edited April 26, 2019 by TRAILRAGE

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

15 hours ago, adb968008 said:

its fallacy to think one sale doesn't affect another.. if you get 2 for 1, you dont get the “1” but the other two instead...

That is a 'zero sum' understanding of economics.

 

What actually happens when choice is provided is that typically the market grows. It is a good thing to have a range of product from basic or entry level up to 'top spec.' with pricing reflecting what is on offer, and the presence of such choice is an indication of a robust market.

 

 

[MrTea]

Agree with a lot of the comments on here. I think it’s a good thing if these sell as it may encourage other similar initiatives. 

 

I do do wonder if there’s an opportunity for someone to increase the range of stock for such locos to pull, ideally at an affordable price point?

Edited April 27, 2019 by MrTea
Punctuation.

[Ouroborus]

43 minutes ago, MrTea said:

Agree with a lot of the comments on here. I think it’s a good thing if these sell as it may encourage other similar initiatives. 

 

I do do wonder if there’s an opportunity for someone to increase the range of stock for such locos to pull, ideally at an affordable price point?

 

Absolutely.  A few packs of mgr hoppers would be very welcome

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, MrTea said:

Agree with a lot of the comments on here. I think it’s a good thing if these sell as it may encourage other similar initiatives. 

 

I do do wonder if there’s an opportunity for someone to increase the range of stock for such locos to pull, ideally at an affordable price point?

I think theres more market in Coaches / Wagons than locos at this point.

just look at Accurascale... they are running away with this market.

3 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

That is a 'zero sum' understanding of economics.

 

What actually happens when choice is provided is that typically the market grows. It is a good thing to have a range of product from basic or entry level up to 'top spec.' with pricing reflecting what is on offer, and the presence of such choice is an indication of a robust market.

 

 

Supermarket economics dont apply to model railways. Its consumability is measured in decades, not months. It certainly  66779 Evening Star which is unique,is a fashion trend,  it is also not eaten, nor is it thrown away.

 

Why would anyone buy two 66779 Evening Stars ?

Your also ignoring the 2nd hand market, model railways last for decades. 

 

Every model has a cap, regardless vendor, beyond which it just wont sell. Similarly if not enough are made, the second hand price can sometimes escalate way above the original price.

 

i dont think Hornby has grown the market, theyve just taken a slice of the demand on an exclusive livery fashion item at the lower end. I read people filling their boots, Ive not read of new modellers starting the hobby over a class 66 in a dustbin livery.. changing spending habits in the market yes, grown it...not so sure.

 

Thus down the road 66779 will never be rare or desirable as the supply is substantial and subject to trend. Hattons / Bachmann may sell a run of 66779 but they probably wont now be able to sell multiple runs... as the 2nd hand market will catch up the lower end supply for years to come.

I do not see the 66789 from Hornby rising in collectibility price (as some have eluded too as the run sells out)...to me it will only fall when others come on tap... if the market does grow, then it should rise unless Hornby makes more, (i think they would be mad to try it twice) ?

 

your example of market growth doesnt apply to fidget spinners either.. two years ago they were the toy... and you had choice between £3 and £10... it made no difference which version from basic to top spec, as they were consumable fashion.. when the cap was reached, fashion moved on they went to the bin...

 

If the real 66779 was repainted tomorrow, demand will wane., regardless how many railway modellers there are.. that is why first past the post applies to current affairs modelling of special liveries such as the 5 class 66s i referred to... and each sold reduces overall demand until the cap is reached, bearing in mind that cap can grow or shrink upon real world events at any time.

 

well done to Hornby for spotting an opportunity and racing to the machines to turn it around quickly and capitalise on it. But to me its nothing more than a quick win at other vendors expense... This isnt a new market its just taking a bigger share of the existing. I dont think they can make a business model sniping rivals, they will need to innovate.

 

I hope however they use this new found spot to “grow” the market in new models, not Duplicate ideas... theres plenty of models which if made at lesser detailed levels, i feel would become more affordable, viable than would be otherwise at super detail levels... Electrostar would be my first choice, I couldnt i agine anyone in the market pulling that off at an affordable price at a reasonable detail level on such a wide mass market appeal current imagine item.

Edited April 27, 2019 by adb968008

[Legend]

19 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

 

Absolutely.  A few packs of mgr hoppers would be very welcome

 

Im thinking one of the big hoppers , like a JHA I think. Dimensionally correct , looks the part but very basic detailing .   Maybe a play feature like the automatic discharge my Consett Iron Ore hopper from 1974 had 

[Coryton]

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Modellers do seem at odds, theres pages on here about accuracy of the Terriers buffers and the Dean goods rivets, but no one cares about the extra door etc on a 66... maybe its modern image modellers who will accept any old quality as long as its cheap ?.. it did afterall work for Lima...

 

 

Different people perhaps?

 

 

[John M Upton]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

 

Im thinking one of the big hoppers , like a JHA I think. Dimensionally correct , looks the part but very basic detailing .   Maybe a play feature like the automatic discharge my Consett Iron Ore hopper from 1974 had 

 

Does Hornby still have the moulds for the Lima PGA hopper in its collection?  It was a reasonably decent model with a little work and far better than the now seemingly extinct old Hornby version.

[brushman47544]

On 27/04/2019 at 16:43, John M Upton said:

 

Does Hornby still have the moulds for the Lima PGA hopper in its collection?  It was a reasonably decent model with a little work and far better than the now seemingly extinct old Hornby version.

 

When Cavalex announced their PGA, I was hoping it would be a new version of that wagon. I have fond memories of bashing around Reading and seeing the Yeoman liveried ones powering through hauled by Class 37s.

[Legend]

Just looking over on the Hattons 66 thread, I see there are pictures of Maritime Intermodal One , Two and Three , and another new livery relating to PD Ports .  I think the large number of liveries on a 66, and the continuing emergence of new ones , has got be be a factor of the Hornby 66s success. Instead of just buying one , you can justify buying more in various liveries  for the same price .   The profusion of liveries  to this extent is certainly unique to the 66.   I like the look of the Maritime Blue ones . I know Rails have a limited edition Maritime One Bachmann version but at a cost . If I could get one at the Hornby price I'd be tempted.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Legend

[jjb1970]

I think that the success of these models is more an example of expanding a market for a product that taking a slice of a pie at the expense of the competition. Model railways is no different to any other market in that it shrinks and swells and is not a fixed constant. If the right product can stimulate demand and generate additional sales then the overall result will be beneficial for manufacturers as a whole. There clearly is a market for lower cost models if the product is right and quality commensurate with cost (i.e. offering a basic model for a low price, rather than offering a basic model for not that much less than a full fat alternative which sometimes seems to have been the case in the past). If Hornby sell their full run quickly, and Hattons sell their production run (admittedly that's an iff at this point) then both companies win. Most of the people I know who have bought the Hornby model have not bought them at the expense of the Hattons model. They are either extra 66's or sales to people who weren't intending to buy a 66 at all but thought it was worth a punt at the price.

 

Even if we accept the pie model of the market (the size of the pie is constant, and all that you can do is carve up the pie so that if one company wins then another loses) then the concept of a bigger slice of the pie going to a low cost and basic 66 is no more right or wrong than it going to a super detailed alternative. Many on this board would decry that, but it is just as valid for a lot of other people to ask why they should be expected to pay more than they'd like for a super detailed model if they're quite happy with a more basic but cheaper alternative. I really don't see that either approach is any more right or wrong than the other, they're both valid and focused on different segments.

[Coryton]

28 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Most of the people I know who have bought the Hornby model have not bought them at the expense of the Hattons model. They are either extra 66's or sales to people who weren't intending to buy a 66 at all but thought it was worth a punt at the price.

 

 

You can include me in that list.

 

I'm enjoying watching a BR large logo 66 pulling a container train round my layout. It doesn't fit the time period I concentrate on (though the livery does so one could imagine a world in which the 66's were a lot closer on the heels of the 59s than they actually were, and the sectorisation liveries didn't happen...)

 

At £75 I considered it worth it.

 

At £150....no....even it if would have the correct number of doors and working lights etc. (the Hornby one doesn't look wrong to me because I don't know any better...)

[Hroth]

Going by Hattons stock levels, the least popular of the Hornby Class 66 recent releases is R3778 (DB Cargo UK Red), of which they still have 9 in stock since last Friday.  R3784 (GBRf "Golden Jubilee") has sold out.

 

Its odd, really. The Class 66 issued previous to this years splurge of liveries,  R3573 (GBRf "Inspiration Delivered...") hasn't shifted either although its livery is a bit more eyecatching.  Perhaps £85 for a Hornby 66 isn't as attractive as £67.50!

 

['CHARD]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

Going by Hattons stock levels, the least popular of the Hornby Class 66 recent releases is R3778 (DB Cargo UK Red), of which they still have 9 in stock since last Friday.  R3784 (GBRf "Golden Jubilee") has sold out.

 

Its odd, really. The Class 66 issued previous to this years splurge of liveries,  R3573 (GBRf "Inspiration Delivered...") hasn't shifted either although its livery is a bit more eyecatching.  Perhaps £85 for a Hornby 66 isn't as attractive as £67.50!

 

 

The arrival of the Costcutter 66s has pretty much bowled-out the pre-existing stock at those prices.  Interesting that DB red is a slow(er) mover, given the regular calls for that livery by certain vocal sections of the RMweb choir.

[Coryton]

6 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

 

The arrival of the Costcutter 66s has pretty much bowled-out the pre-existing stock at those prices.  Interesting that DB red is a slow(er) mover, given the regular calls for that livery by certain vocal sections of the RMweb choir.

 

Possibly Hattons bought in more of these?

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

Possibly Hattons bought in more of these?

Hattons possibly took as many of each livery of the Hornby 66s as they could, on the grounds that they would be popular and it would be a good idea to get them all sold before their 66s arrived.  R3778 is not UNpopular, I suppose, just not selling at the same rate as the rest, though they are now down to 7 in stock, which may be due to a realisation that there's not that many Hornby Class 66 examples left in the wild!