Comment on "Have Hornby lost it?"

[7013]

I have no wish to stir up a nest of Hornets, and I agree that the first course of action should be to take faulty goods back to the shop they were bought from, if like the OP there appeared to be a batch problem then recourse to the manufacturer should be the next step. I did not think that the OP was whinging, he was just commenting on his experience. I firmly believe we should not be bashing the manufacturers but by the same token pointing out what was clearly in in the OP's opinion poor goods does not constitute whinging. If the problems with models are not brought to the public domain then sometimes they are missed. I believe the problems with the Original WD and more recently with the T9 may not have been addressed so quickly and I might say very impressively by both manufacturers. If we are to have a site that does not allow us to bring these potential problems to the notice of others via this (excellent) forum then how can we share experiences, take for instance the front bogie on the T9 many of us were glad the problem was aired, shared and repaired with the help of RMweb? This is not a whinge, just an observation.

[Mod2]

Andrew (it is Andrew I believe, I apologise if I've got that wrong).

 

We do get very, very weary I'm afraid, of repeatedly having to spell out one very simple principle, one that should be self-evident - that criticism itself is not the problem, but the way that criticism is expressed. Another principle that is seldom taken into account by casual observers is that moderation decisions always involve considering a member's previous history.

 

I hesitate to use the member concerned as an example, but before acting in the topic I had checked his posting history. In just 18 posts, there was a much higher-than-average tendency to use the forum as a soapbox for personal moans. Examples of wording used being 'fed up', 'wanting a moan', 'in my rant', 'pull their fingers out' and 'sloppy seconds'.

 

Postings like that - and the topic heading itself - may be intended flippantly but are needlessly inflammatory and are hardly calculated to encourage positive interaction from the manufacturers. Nobody is pretending any of the manufacturers are perfect, but they have over time resolved various issues when those issues have been addressed in an adult and responsible manner.

 

Not only that, but our belief is that most members find such rants distasteful and depressing, and I personally received a PM yesterday supporting our action. In the interests of free debate though, I'll now leave this topic open in order to gather more opinion, of whatever shade. Although I'd stress that it's not a free-for-all, and usual protocols will apply.

 

Thank you.

[PaulRhB]

I think the free nature of the forum and the internet in general has an unfortunate ability to create myths around the opinions expressed during a period of frustration. Emails and postings are so easy to send while, maybe rightly, annoyed but are so easy to take out of context later.

One issue that was raised in the OP though that might have been better illustrated with a picture was the comment about poor livery. Personally I would have asked the shop if they could order another in and return the faulty ones to the manufacturer. This would mean direct feedback to the manufacturer from an important outlet.

Moderation is necessary to account for us having bad days as well as the deliberate flamers.

[Kenton]

The best way to be critical of any model by any manufacturer is to post a photo along with a clear description.

Then everyone can make the same judgment from the facts.

Just simply going into a rant against a model makes the assumption we all have the same level of tolerance (or should that be intolerance) to defects, omissions and additions.

An evidential and unemotional approach giving a photo of the model and a comparison with another model or the prototype supported with measurements makes it very convincing to the rest of the readers and more difficult for the manufacturer to deny.

[Forester]

Perhaps if we had some better system of classification of offences it might help members understand why a thread which seems perfectly innocuous has been jumped on, as happens from time to time (not citing this case in particular). It might also encourage Mods to think more consistently and analytically before taking action if the were required to post an offence "code", or codes, when they close down a thread.

[Stubby47]

Forum Rules

 

1. Please do not post any material that may be regarded as discriminatory, potentially libellous or malicious to any other party.

 

2. Please do not post unsubstantiated or inaccurate criticism of any individual or organisation. Any criticism should be presented in the same manner as would be appropriate for a face to face conversation.

 

3. Please do not post inappropriate language or content of, but not limited to, obscene, racist, sexist or blasphemous nature.

 

4. Please do not post any content that breaches the confidence or anonymity of other members including the administration team.

 

5. Please do not post any material which infringes copyright. It is the responsibility of the poster to seek reproduction permission before posting other persons' material.

 

6. Please do not post any content or links that serve to promote any goods, services, transaction or commercial entity that you have any involvement with until express permission is sought from the forum administrator. Further Guidance is given here - http://www.rmweb.co....opyright-rules/

 

7. Please do not breach any Classified Rules as shown here - http://www.rmweb.co....dtrading-rules/

 

These seem clear enough to me...

 

 

[Mod6]

Perhaps if we had some better system of classification of offences it might help members understand why a thread which seems perfectly innocuous has been jumped on, as happens from time to time (not citing this case in particular). It might also encourage Mods to think more consistently and analytically before taking action if the were required to post an offence "code", or codes, when they close down a thread.

 

As Stu has just posted, the rules are as short and clear as we can make them (and after a lot of experience and redrafting).

 

And we do actually think consistently and analytically before taking action - but as Mod2 has already pointed out, some of that analysis involves consideration of posting history and other context that members might not be aware of.

[Kenton]

Perhaps if we had some better system of classification of offences it might help members understand why a thread which seems perfectly innocuous has been jumped on

Oh I don't think that is needed - it is usually pretty obvious, and even when it is not, there has probably been something happening behind the scenes.

Generally the Admin team have got better things to do with their time than having to justify their actions. I'm sure if Andy discovered a Mod going beyond the brief, that Mod would find himself off the team.

 

It is so easy to get a bit carried away with some of the topics and to post with the speed and lack of thought that we would often express in the bar of the local pub (guilty of that myself). However, we have to try to remember this place is much more public and the feelings of that wider audience need to be accounted for. That also includes the manufacturers who, quite rightly, could take exception to a minority unjustifiably slagging off their product. The Mods do quite often fire off warning shots (probably even more behind the scenes) we probably need to read and heed them.

[Andy Y]

Sorry, I do need to add another to that list.

 

8. Please do not act like a complete and utter door handle.

 

(That covers all we need).

 

 

[Guest Max Stafford]

Door handle? I like that, is it like being a 'Melonfarmer'...?

 

Dave.

[Ian J.]

Apologies in advance for adding a bit of froth, but 'door handle'?

[Stubby47]

Door handle, as in door kn*b ?

[cb900f]

How about just 2 rules

 

1 The moderator is always right

 

2 Refer to rule 1

 

Andy does your rule 8 (doorhandle etc) not contravene Stubbys rule 1. i:e malicious

 

Aside from the previous mickey taking.

As the saying goes "engage brain before opening flapper valve ", it wouldn't do for everyone to be the same. If people didn't moan things wouldn't change. At the end of the day some people are more impulsive than others when expressing their thoughts/opinions as per Kentons 2nd paragragh.

 

I also do not believe in the "gentlemanly criticism" as opposed to the "slagging criticism" works. To me it's the market forces that have resulted in the manufacturers improvements. How long did Hornby persevere with the old black 5 ? I reckon approx 25yrs. I don't think they improved it because of criticism but the fact that they saw a niche that they could fill and satisfy the modellers wishes if they produced a good representative of the class. Very good the black 5 maybe, but it still has flaws as discussed on this site. After the thousands of pounds they have invested I can't see them remoulding both the body and tender. It has not stopped me from buying 1 or 2 even though I have 8 model loco black 5's. I have purchased more RTR in the last 2 yrs than in the last 30yrs so the manufacturers must be doing something right for me.

 

It is all summed up for me when someone posted on April fools day that the RW Web "sucks" (rule 2/3 broken) and someone replied by saying that they knew it was a hoax because it hadn't been moderated or locked. Enough said.

 

Apologies for waffling on but this "holier than thou" does nothing to convince me.

I have no doubt broken rule 8 with this posting.

 

Pete

[Andy Y]

 Quite simply; if we hadn't done what we have and do what we do I would have pulled the plug on RMweb a long time ago. There is no obligation upon me to accommodate problems (and abuse of the perception of 'free speech') under sufferance.

[Guest jim s-w]

with free speech comes taking responsibility

 

Afraid a lot of the 'right to free speech' brigade DONT take responsibility for their comments.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Oldddudders]

This thread is getting quite unpleasant. On any logical basis, if Andy puts loads of time, effort and money into making this forum free for all of us - and that's quite a big number of people now - then actually Andy is probably entitled to the last word on any subject. He has posted, as Stubby47 pointed out, an entirely reasonable list of forum requirements. If any of us doesn't like them, we can - er - go away.

 

Andy's gaff - Andy's rules. Simple!

[Talltim]

Erm, I'm confused, the OP mentions the OP as if they are someone else?

[7013]

I am the OP for this thread but I was commenting on the OP for the "Have Hornby lost it " thread, Clear? Thanks Mod 2 for making things a bit clearer for me, of course we are not privy to the same info as you. I agree that the site should not be used as an outlet for moaning and groaning or as a soapbox, Andy provides an excellent site and the free nature of it does require moderation.

I dont think this thread is getting nasty it is merely promoting an exchange of opinions, I guess it will run its course (if it has not done so already) soon and be locked, I do not think a long debate will serve any real purpose and while I do not regret broaching the subject and the input has been useful it would be better if we got back to the subject (model railways) in hand.

Cheers

Andrew

[brushman47544]

Sorry if I shouldn't post here, but am I the only one that gets reams of blank space after the posts by Mod2 and Mod6 on this thread? It happened on another thread with Mod2 recently, but not on any others.

[RedgateModels]

Sorry if I shouldn't post here, but am I the only one that gets reams of blank space after the posts by Mod2 and Mod6 on this thread? It happened on another thread with Mod2 recently, but not on any others.

 

maybe not - see here

[cb900f]

Nicely put Andrew especially your second paragragh, I also thought it was just a chance to voice one's opinions. However I think we can all agree to disagree and leave it at that. We can of course always err go away, I wasn't disappointed that someone would come up with that old chestnut.

 

The OP was no doubt through frustration. I learn't years ago when purchasing a model from a shop to ask to open it and test it there and then rather than go home only to find something wrong with it. It saves a lot of messing about and frustration. Rails kindly exchange a loco 4 times before I was happy with the running qualities.

 

Regards Pete

[shortliner]

 

The OP was no doubt through frustration. I learn't years ago when purchasing a model from a shop to ask to open it and test it there and then rather than go home only to find something wrong with it. It saves a lot of messing about and frustration. Rails kindly exchange a loco 4 times before I was happy with the running qualities.

 

Regards Pete

 

An example of the above - I needed a new spotlight bulb for my bathroom, so yesterday whilst in B&Q, I picked up a packet clearly marked as containing 4, Fortunately before I actually paid for it, I looked inside to confirm that it had the correct size screw-end fitment. That was the point where I found that some tealeaf had helped himself to two of the bulbs! - I would have been mightily pi$$ed if I had driven all the way home - we are a long way from most places up here - and discovered that I was missing two! And yes, I did take it to the desk and point it out to the young lady! Check before departing with your purchase.

[Pennine MC]

I also do not believe in the "gentlemanly criticism" as opposed to the "slagging criticism" works.

 

Straight out of the REx 'shout it from the rooftops' book of philosophy, eh.

 

Truth is you'll never really know either way, but the way I look at it is this. Manufacturers are people, with all that that entails in the way of feelings and pride. If you had a dispute with your neighbour, say, over parking, overhanging branches or whatever, what sort of approach would you respond to best? You know he has a point but hey, you dont do it deliberately, and you've got loads on your mind. Would you be more likely to co-operate if he gently took you aside and said 'can we have a word?', or would he be more likely to impress you by striding into your back garden and calling you all the useless w*nkers under the sun?

 

I know which works for me.

[bmg]

If we are to have a site that does not allow us to bring these potential problems to the notice of others via this (excellent) forum then how can we share experiences......?

 

 

That is a wonderful question. Is it just a matter of how it is done or is there more to it?

[Andy Y]

Is it just a matter of how it is done 

 

Got it in one. There's nothing more to it than that. Try to not to over-analyse it. 

 

As previously said we are not here for personal rants but if there is a genuine issue and it's substantiated and discussed without the sound of axes being ground in the background it's fine and beneficial for all parties.