HS2 under review

[caradoc]

One person's "modest premium" is another person's "significant increase".

 

And as for fast services for Wolverhampton and Coventry etc, won't all the extra semi-fast services on the WCML get in the way?

 

No, because all the longer distance services will now be on HS2, thus freeing capacity, which is a, if not the, major reason for building it in the first place.

[GoingUnderground]

The faltering UK economy due to the close result of a certain referendum 2 years ago will undoubtedly put a strain on UK government finances, possibly for the next 10 years. If it's "No Deal" as some "politicians" want, then the slowdown will be even greater. London will grow more slowly, and with the reduced level of economic activity in the UK generally, rail passenger numbers may start dropping again as they were doing in the 1980s.

 

All these factors point in only one direction, HS2 will be cancelled. They may initially announce a slow down on work justifying it on "cost saving grounds during the current economic uncertainty" to save face, but that just puts up the total bill if it's ever completed, making cancellation even more likely.

 

That might sound unlikely, but governments of both persuasions have form in cancelling projects even after money has been spent and work started, e.g. In London the "Northern Heights" extension of the Northern line to Ally Pally and Bushey Heath in 1954, the "Blue Streak" missile defence system in 1960, and the TSR2 military aircraft in 1965. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones that spring immediately to my mind.

 

But I do hope I'm wrong on all counts.

Edited October 1, 2018 by GoingUnderground

[PhilJ W]

As far as I can tell from the coverage of the Tory conference, the anti-HS2 sentiment is largely just grandstanding by Boris Johnson. This is probably more related to his having a massive Ted Heath style sulk, and opposing all current Government policies, than anything else. 

 

 

What he said, I fear he will be the next Ted Heath, appearing to take shots at whoever is leader of the Tories for the next several decades and peddling ever more bizarre ideas. That's assuming there isn't a real disaster and he doesn't end up as leader of the party.... You can see the same attitude in Osborne, his vendetta against Theresa May has devalued the London Evening Standard as any news on a certain subject is written off as just part of his sulk at the way he was "let go".

More like Tony Benn was to the Labour Party than Ted Heath. Both Tony Benn and Boris Johnson are cases where ambition exceeds ability.

[phil-b259]

One person's "modest premium" is another person's "significant increase".

 

 

While this is true, the fact that enough are still prepared to pay it on HS1 (or indeed that some folk are prepared to pay for first class, or walk in tickets still sell in decent numbers despite much cheaper pre booked tickets being available) says that enough people will pay for the enhanced service.  True care needs to be taken as to the actual level - but its in nobodies interest for it to be set so high that it means trains run round half empty) but in a capitalist society, some folk paying more than others is not unusual.

 

 

And as for fast services for Wolverhampton and Coventry etc, won't all the extra semi-fast services on the WCML get in the way?

 

 Not necessarily - it all depends around the pathing and performance characteristics. I don't have the necessary information to hand but somewhere amongst the justification for HS2 there are documents showing what could be achieved even with the retention of fast services from the likes of Coventry. One problem is that the exact service pattern is up to the inhabitants of the DfT to specify as part of the next WCML franchise and they do have a habit of making sub-optimal decisions.

[Dava]

"the inhabitants of the DfT...do have a habit of making sub-optimal decisions."

 

My, what masterly understatement.....without comment on the Sec. Of State for transport's 'sub-optimal decisions'. Possibly the only kind they make?

 

Dava

[phil-b259]

"the inhabitants of the DfT...do have a habit of making sub-optimal decisions."

 

My, what masterly understatement.....without comment on the Sec. Of State for transport's 'sub-optimal decisions'. Possibly the only kind they make?

 

Dava

Given the timescales involved it’s quite possible that the current Secretary of State for transport may not be in power by the time the decisions have to be made.

 

As we all know when it comes politicians - some are good, some are bad and it remains to be seen how things will pan out - particularly in a post Brexit world. Mr Grayling's predecessor was far better....

Edited October 2, 2018 by phil-b259

[Ron Ron Ron]

The derelict former carriage shed at Euston has been demolished and cleared to make way for the HS2 tunnel portal works.

 

3127874_carriagesheddemoexternaloriginalcondition.jpg

 

3127868_carriagesheddemointernaloriginalcondition3to2.jpg

 

3127870_carriagesheddemocranewideangle.jpg

 

3127869_carriagesheddemocranecloseup.jpg

 

3127875_carriagesheddemolitionworkcomplete.jpg

 

 

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The former National Temperance Hospital building is being demolished to make way for a HS2 works compound.

 

hospital.jpg

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

[Ron Ron Ron]

Birmingham Curzon St. site clearance and preparatory work underway.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Work begins to exhume ‘18,000 dead bodies, buried 20 deep’ for HS2

 

https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/13/work-begins-to-exhume-18000-dead-bodies-buried-20-deep-for-hs2-7940768/

 

 

 

....

[melmerby]

 

Work begins to exhume ‘18,000 dead bodies, buried 20 deep’ for HS2

 

https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/13/work-begins-to-exhume-18000-dead-bodies-buried-20-deep-for-hs2-7940768/

 

 

 

....

 

They had to do the same when the line into New Street was built as it cut diagonally through a graveyard.

 

Keith

[jamie92208]

They had to do the same when the line into New Street was built as it cut diagonally through a graveyard.

 

Keith

The same with St Pancras. However when the NER built it's line across central Leeds to join up it's two stations the built an embankment on top of the Parish Church graveyard and left the bodies in situ. The gravestones are still in place but laid into the embankment sides opposite the church.

 

 

Jamie

[Ron Ron Ron]

On the topic of the Euston carriage sheds, Urban explorer site "28 Days Later", has some photos of the abandoned building, taken some 3 years ago.......

 

https://www.28dayslater.co.uk/threads/euston-downside-depot-july-2015.98804/

 

 

 

.

[lmsforever]

HS2 and HS1  cannot be compared as HS1 is a continental link with a surburban service tacked on whereas HS2 is marketed as a self contained high speed line without many links to the rest of the network.Also access to this wonderous new train is denied to a whole swathe of the country plus people who support this project who live south, east and west of London probaly face over an hours journey to get onboard to save fifteen minutes to Brum.This will be the destination for a good few years and possibly its only high speed terminus as I can see the overuns on budget being so high that it will take fifty years to recoup the cost of building it .The fares are going to high higher than wcml ones and discounts will not be able to be offered due to having to make as much money as possible.      On my travels on the wcml I often talk to fellow passengers about why they are traveling and the majority say pleasure ,and that the current services are perfectly suitable for their needs.HS2 was thought up by people who saw it as a vanity project and as a way to make money from the state plus having no regard for the lives of people who live in the path of this white elephant.Doubtless acertain poster will be rude to me calling me backward looking but I am not alone a backlash is gathering momentum. 

[Neil]

HS2 and HS1  cannot be compared as HS1 is a continental link with a surburban service tacked on whereas HS2 is marketed as a self contained high speed line without many links to the rest of the network.Also access to this wonderous new train is denied to a whole swathe of the country plus people who support this project who live south, east and west of London probaly face over an hours journey to get onboard to save fifteen minutes to Brum....

 

I doubt that HS2 was ever intended to be relevant to those south, east or west of London (or in some ways for those who live between Birmingham and London); but it would/will come into its own for those in Birmingham and further north. It would really come into its own if as was originally mooted it would be possible to board a direct Eurostar service to the continent at Birmingham,( eventually at Manchester or Leeds). Any boost to an area outside greater London has to be of benefit to both that area and London as it will relieve some of the pressures faced by the capital. In railway terms this would mean reducing the overcrowding at St Pancras, but for society as a whole it would help chip away at the problem of London being unaffordable for many.

[Edwin_m]

HS2 and HS1  cannot be compared as HS1 is a continental link with a surburban service tacked on whereas HS2 is marketed as a self contained high speed line without many links to the rest of the network.Also access to this wonderous new train is denied to a whole swathe of the country plus people who support this project who live south, east and west of London probaly face over an hours journey to get onboard to save fifteen minutes to Brum.This will be the destination for a good few years and possibly its only high speed terminus as I can see the overuns on budget being so high that it will take fifty years to recoup the cost of building it .The fares are going to high higher than wcml ones and discounts will not be able to be offered due to having to make as much money as possible.      On my travels on the wcml I often talk to fellow passengers about why they are traveling and the majority say pleasure ,and that the current services are perfectly suitable for their needs.HS2 was thought up by people who saw it as a vanity project and as a way to make money from the state plus having no regard for the lives of people who live in the path of this white elephant.Doubtless acertain poster will be rude to me calling me backward looking but I am not alone a backlash is gathering momentum. 

When HS2 only goes to Birmingham it will have through services to Manchester, Liverpool, Stoke and Scotland.  When it goes to Manchester and Leeds it will also have services from Birmingham northwards as well as London, will serve Sheffield and Newcastle and possibly other destinations.  That doesn't seem very self-contained to me. 

 

I can understand why some people are opposed to HS2 but when opposition is justified by "facts" like these I do struggle to find your arguments convincing. 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Edwin_m

[Davexoc]

HS2 and HS1  cannot be compared as HS1 is a continental link with a surburban service tacked on whereas HS2 is marketed as a self contained high speed line without many links to the rest of the network.Also access to this wonderous new train is denied to a whole swathe of the country plus people who support this project who live south, east and west of London probaly face over an hours journey to get onboard to save fifteen minutes to Brum.This will be the destination for a good few years and possibly its only high speed terminus as I can see the overuns on budget being so high that it will take fifty years to recoup the cost of building it .The fares are going to high higher than wcml ones and discounts will not be able to be offered due to having to make as much money as possible.      On my travels on the wcml I often talk to fellow passengers about why they are traveling and the majority say pleasure ,and that the current services are perfectly suitable for their needs.HS2 was thought up by people who saw it as a vanity project and as a way to make money from the state plus having no regard for the lives of people who live in the path of this white elephant.Doubtless acertain poster will be rude to me calling me backward looking but I am not alone a backlash is gathering momentum. 

My In-laws live along the Chiltern Line and didn't get it because it doesn't benefit them. I explained how the WCML is at capacity which they didn't understand until they spent some time around Bletchley, 'There were so many trains going by, every minute or so' they said.

You want trucks off the road and fast trains as well? HS2 will allow that, as will EWR and the East-West Expressway, which will perhaps take some of the traffic off the crumbling Bucks. road network. Roll on 2030 when it all comes to fruition, oh hang on, I'll be retired by then and won't care about the c**p Bucks. traffic any more.

 

Dave

[melmerby]

There seem to be a series of rotating arguments against HS2 by those whose "facts" don't stand up to scrutiny.

 

Anti: HS2 isn't needed.

Pro: We need more capacity. The trains are already full.

Anti: Easy. Put on more trains then.

Pro: We can't, the tracks are full.

Anti: Easy. Put longer trains on.

Pro: We can't. The platforms aren't long enough.

Anti: Easy. Build Longer Platforms.

Pro: We can't without demolishing lots of properties

Anti: Build extra tracks alongside the current railway.

Pro: See previous answer. A new railway away from the more congested areas makes better business and environmental sense.

Anti: We don't need HS2....................

 

 

Keith

[locoholic]

There seem to be a series of rotating arguments against HS2 by those whose "facts" don't stand up to scrutiny.

 

Anti: HS2 isn't needed.

Pro: We need more capacity. The trains are already full.

Anti: Easy. Put on more trains then.

Pro: We can't, the tracks are full.

Anti: Easy. Put longer trains on.

Pro: We can't. The platforms aren't long enough.

Anti: Easy. Build Longer Platforms.

Pro: We can't without demolishing lots of properties

Anti: Build extra tracks alongside the current railway.

Pro: See previous answer. A new railway away from the more congested areas makes better business and environmental sense.

Anti: We don't need HS2....................

 

 

Keith

There's another version that goes:

Pro: HS2 isn't about getting to Birmingham a few minutes earlier

Anti: Then why does HS stand for High Speed?

Pro: It's all about capacity

Anti: Then why are we paying for it to be be over-engineered so that trains can spend a few minutes going really fast?

Pro: It's essential because the WCML is full.

Anti: OK, so just build a new normal railway line with a couple of extra stations to benefit the areas it traverses?

Pro: But we need it to be High Speed, because that's the future.

Anti: But you just said it's all about capacity. Why bother building it to accomodate big trains that won't fit along normal lines, when the design has now been altered to include lots of links to normal railway lines?

Pro: Stop being a Nimby.

[jjb1970]

To be honest I don't think the idea has been very well sold to the public by politicians and the government as I do think the messages are a bit mixed up and sometimes feel slightly contradictory. I'm pro-HS2 and think it has to be built but for all that I've read some of the stuff supporting it and seen obvious holes to blow apart in the arguments. That isn't because HS2 is a bad idea, it's because some of the arguments used to promote it are a little weak.

[lmsforever]

I agree about the way HS2 has been presented to the public ,the roadshows were rubbish with staff who just stood around not realy knowing what it was all about.Ask a question and the reply was it will be announced later or it will all be obvious when more planning is done ,not good.I went to every roadshow in our area and saw locals looking totaly mystified by what they were told .The line will pass near my house (half a mile) on a forty foot embankment that will totally ruin our secluded area with excellent views.But so many people who support this white elephant seem to live many many miles away from the route so I do not think they are qualified to comment on environmental issues.GB is to small an island to support high speed and the dft cant even upgrade our existing network so I am not holding my breath on HS2.

[phil-b259]

There's another version that goes:

Pro: HS2 isn't about getting to Birmingham a few minutes earlier

Anti: Then why does HS stand for High Speed?

Pro: It's all about capacity

Anti: Then why are we paying for it to be be over-engineered so that trains can spend a few minutes going really fast?

Pro: It's essential because the WCML is full.

Anti: OK, so just build a new normal railway line with a couple of extra stations to benefit the areas it traverses?

Pro: But we need it to be High Speed, because that's the future.

Anti: But you just said it's all about capacity. Why bother building it to accomodate big trains that won't fit along normal lines, when the design has now been altered to include lots of links to normal railway lines?

Pro: Stop being a Nimby.

 

 

 

Pro: HS2 isn't about getting to Birmingham a few minutes earlier

Anti: Then why does HS stand for High Speed?

Pro:- It's all about capacity Because compared to the current WCML which only just about manages 130mph in places, HS2 will have a design speed comparable with the best High speed lines in Europe (200mph approx). The point of HS2 is to remove fast express services starting or finishing in the North West from the WCML - not cater for slow moving freight or semi-fast / commuter services!

 

Anti: Then why are we paying for it to be be over-engineered so that trains can spend a few minutes going really fast?

Pro: It's essential because the WCML is full. We are not! Firstly from an engineering perspective there is practically zero difference between the land take, cost, minimum curvature, etc between a 250mph design spec or a 186mph design spec. Secondly the international convention is that brand new passenger only lines linking major cities are built with a 150mph plus design speed. Thirdly by adopting current best practice / international thinking then more 'off the shelf' kit can be used thus reducing costs over bespoke requirements.

 

Anti: OK, so just build a new normal railway line with a couple of extra stations to benefit the areas it traverses?

Pro: But we need it to be High Speed, because that's the future. What part of 'removing fast express trains to / from the North West (note they generally only stop at stations south of Crewe / Stafford because there is insufficient line capacity to provide enough services) from the existing WCML is so hard to understand? The deign brief is NOT how to improve connectivity to the Chilterns - nor is it actually about improving journeys between London & Birmingham. Birmingham only comes into the picture with HS2 as it happens to lie slap bang on the route to the North West so it makes economic sense to include it in the list of places served by HS2 even though it has no need for a shorter journey time to London.

 

Anti: But you just said it's all about capacity. Why bother building it to accomodate big trains that won't fit along normal lines, when the design has now been altered to include lots of links to normal railway lines?

Pro: Stop being a Nimby. Because in 30 years, if HS2 trains become full we can then use off the shelf double deck EU gauge trains to shift folk between the key destinations. Have a look at what the French did when their first TGV line became full and they couldn't add any more services - they went and double decked the trains. We already have a major problem where our current Victorian era network cannot accommodate double deck stock as a solution to overcrowding so why would any sane railway designer repeat that with a new build line?

Edited October 6, 2018 by Andy Y

[phil-b259]

I agree about the way HS2 has been presented to the public ,the roadshows were rubbish with staff who just stood around not realy knowing what it was all about.Ask a question and the reply was it will be announced later or it will all be obvious when more planning is done ,not good.I went to every roadshow in our area and saw locals looking totaly mystified by what they were told .The line will pass near my house (half a mile) on a forty foot embankment that will totally ruin our secluded area with excellent views.But so many people who support this white elephant seem to live many many miles away from the route so I do not think they are qualified to comment on environmental issues.GB is to small an island to support high speed and the dft cant even upgrade our existing network so I am not holding my breath on HS2.

 

So in your view:-

 

(1) The WCML doesn't suffer from a lack of capacity

 

OR

 

(2) You are quite happy for thousands of other people to have their homes, business and livelihoods destroyed to widen the existing line just so you can keep your 'pretty view'

 

AND

 

(3) You are quite willing to spend millions more on widening the current WCML even though widening an existing piece of infrastructure (be it a railway or a motorway) is PROVED to be far more expensive than a new build (of any standard) thanks to all the extra cash that has to be spent on trying to keep the artery functioning for current users while rebuilding it.

 

Sorry, but your attitude reeks of a 'I'm all right jack so screw the needs of everyone else" syndrome. While its quite natural to think that way initially (humans are by nature a selfish bunch - if we weren't we wouldn't have survived to become the dominant species on the planet) there is a need for all of us to remember that we don't live in isolation and not insist it takes precedence over all else.

 

Just because you happen to purchase a house in a particular place does not give you the right to demand that nothing ever changes - something far too many folk seem to have forgotten about in the general obsession with having a high valuation if you happen to be lucky enough to own property.

 

Just as even though I don't have children but am quite happy to pay taxes so that other peoples children can be educated (rather than keep it and spend it on things that improve my life) so it is that society at large sometimes has to take the hit when it comes to infrastructure.

 

You claim the embankment will 'ruin' your secluded area is not new - such attitudes played a big part in causing the WCML to be so twisty in the first place! Fast forward a century and those embankments that 'ruined' the landscape are now highly valued by environmentalists (see all the fuss created when NR cuts down the trees growing on them) while those living near to them in rural areas still enjoy a decent life.

Edited October 6, 2018 by phil-b259

[locoholic]

It might help of you actually answered the questions properly rather than talking b******ks

 

Let me have a go for you shall I?

 

Pro: HS2 isn't about getting to Birmingham a few minutes earlier

Anti: Then why does HS stand for High Speed?

Pro:- It's all about capacity Because compared to the current WCML which only just about manages 130mph in places, HS2 will have a design speed comparable with the best High speed lines in Europe (200mph approx). The point of HS2 is to remove fast express services starting or finishing in the North West from the WCML - not cater for slow moving freight or semi-fast / commuter services!

 

Anti: Then why are we paying for it to be be over-engineered so that trains can spend a few minutes going really fast?

Pro: It's essential because the WCML is full. We are not! Firstly from an engineering perspective there is practically zero difference between the land take, cost, minimum curvature, etc between a 250mph design spec or a 186mph design spec. Secondly the international convention is that brand new passenger only lines linking major cities are built with a 150mph plus design speed. Thirdly by adopting current best practice / international thinking then more 'off the shelf' kit can be used thus reducing costs over bespoke requirements.

 

Anti: OK, so just build a new normal railway line with a couple of extra stations to benefit the areas it traverses?

Pro: But we need it to be High Speed, because that's the future. What part of 'removing fast express trains to / from the North West (note they generally only stop at stations south of Crewe / Stafford because there is insufficient line capacity to provide enough services) from the existing WCML is so hard to understand? The deign brief is NOT how to improve connectivity to the Chilterns - nor is it actually about improving journeys between London & Birmingham. Birmingham only comes into the picture with HS2 as it happens to lie slap bang on the route to the North West so it makes economic sense to include it in the list of places served by HS2 even though it has no need for a shorter journey time to London.

 

Anti: But you just said it's all about capacity. Why bother building it to accomodate big trains that won't fit along normal lines, when the design has now been altered to include lots of links to normal railway lines?

Pro: Stop being a Nimby. Because in 30 years, if HS2 trains become full we can then use off the shelf double deck EU gauge trains to shift folk between the key destinations. Have a look at what the French did when their first TGV line became full and they couldn't add any more services - they went and double decked the trains. We already have a major problem where our current Victorian era network cannot accommodate double deck stock as a solution to overcrowding so why would any sane railway designer repeat that with a new build line?

 

Hmm, not so supportive of you attitude now that questions have been dealt with properly is it?

There goes your blood pressure again!

 

Some of what you say is total "b******cks" and comes nowhere near dealing with anything "properly".

 

The idea that HS2 gives the UK the fastest trains in Europe for free (which is the logical conclusion of your argument that it is not over-engineered), for a start. Everything from noise abatement to power supply is made much more expensive when the line speed is increased. That comes from the laws of physics. It's not some Nimby conspiracy.

Then there's the idea that future-proofing HS2 by building it to a big loading gauge is good value for money. You are spending money based on pure speculation. This isn't "magic money" - it's real.

 

The idea that by over-engineering to "international" standards we can make savings by buying off-the shelf trains is a joke. The current trend is for more and more incompatibility, both from physical things like couplings, and from computer control and signalling.

 

The design brief for HS2 is wrong for the UK, and it represents poor value for money and a massive missed opportunity. But hey, it provides something for tunnel vision HS2 worshippers to get triggered over.