frobisher Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Lets face it, if the sums of money that will eventually be spent building this monstrous white elephant were spent on local trasportation it would benefit millions instead of a few hundred. I've said before and I'll say it again. If your going to try and waste such a vast amount of public money on something so pointless, especially when the country's power supply and distribution is in such a desperate neglected state and needs billions spending on it, the public should get the chance to vote on it. I hate to break it to you, you already have. That's what general elections are for. We as a country voted in a government that was committed to the scheme. And I'll leave the politics there. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted January 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2012 Out of interest, aside from the all the political arguments and the economic pros and cons of HS2, what exactly were the main details of the argument for 'other' upgrades (apart from the silly and simplistic "less first class and four more carriages on every train") on which the detractors say that the money could have been spent? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Vague recollection that they also proposed making one of the flat connections between fast and slow a flying junction too... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2012 Do they? Or do employers in areas where there is a shortage of locally available labour move to areas where there is an available workforce? I can see this line actually being harmful to the local economies of the provincial areas it purports to serve as they increasingly become dormitory towns for London workers What are required are initiatives to remove the requirement for long distance commuting not to facilitate it. The vast majority of long distance commuting in Britain is among white collar/specialist/managerial folk and they do it for one reason - money. The London commuting belt has gradually spread outwards over the years due to rising housing costs gradually pushing outwards, the sheer availability of suitable housing gradually pushing outwards, and the improvement of the transport network to cater for and encourage such changes. Cost apart (in many cases) commuters aren't in the least bit interested in the length of their journey measured in miles and never have been - their principle concern is the time cost of the journey. And that apart the perceived 'acceptable' journey time for commuting has increased as well; once upon a time 30 minutes was considered about right, then 1 hour became acceptable , then 90 minutes - nowadays some people are prepared to accept over 2 hours (and do so daily). This does of course reveal a slight flaw in the HS2 plan which is heavily based on centre to centre journeys whereas it should really have a couple of parkway type stations enroute - that really would spread 'economic benefit' in my view. The other part of the equation is housing availability/cost factored against travelling cost - people have moved outwards to get cheaper property (of the standard they want) and overall saved money because of low travel costs. The current state of the national economy has changed that particular equation but that does not mean it is static. BTW getting passengers to move off the existing route might not be too difficult in some respects because obviously - to me at any rate - if the new line is relive capacity on the WCML trains will be taken off the latter and the Birmingham service will be drastically thinned in order to create paths for something else; simples. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2012 Out of interest, aside from the all the political arguments and the economic pros and cons of HS2, what exactly were the main details of the argument for 'other' upgrades (apart from the silly and simplistic "less first class and four more carriages on every train") on which the detractors say that the money could have been spent? I doubt if they've got the first idea when it comes down to the practicalities but they do seem very keen on the idea of making trains longer - without mentioning the massive costs that will involve (and I wonder how many lineside buildings would have to be demolished to achieve it?). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted January 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2012 ............and I wonder how many lineside buildings would have to be demolished to achieve it? ...if the further upgrade and widening of the WCML that these people want were to happen instead, just imagine the sheer volume of occupied dwellings that would have to be swept away compared to the few isolated residences and farms that will go in the Chilterns. Then you would have some 'NIMBYism', the like of which we would never have heard before. I don't hear any protest from areas to the left or right side of the Chilterns strangely. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 We as a country voted in a government that was committed to the scheme. As opposed to voting in the other lot who thought up the scheme in the first place. I'm not seeing a lot of choice on that one. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 As opposed to voting in the other lot who thought up the scheme in the first place. I'm not seeing a lot of choice on that one. There are more than two political parties within the UK you know (and I'm really not wanting to drag this into politics any further than that...). If people read manifestos in somewhat more depth, perhaps there wouldn't be so froth and rage after the event when they do deliver on them. Whilst this is a "Big Deal" and £32B (over what, 10 years?) seems like a ginormous amount of money, it's less than the annual defense budget BEFORE the Iraq/Afghan over runs, and under a third of the annual NHS budget. The VAT dodged by Vodaphone would have paid for nearly 20% of this by itself. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 This does of course reveal a slight flaw in the HS2 plan which is heavily based on centre to centre journeys whereas it should really have a couple of parkway type stations enroute - that really would spread 'economic benefit' in my view. This would seem to be the main role of the station "near" Birmingham airport. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Any route out of London is a good one in my book! Dave. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The vast majority of long distance commuting in Britain is among white collar/specialist/managerial folk and they do it for one reason - money. I wasn't sure how to interpret this statement. I initially read this as money implies greed, but in context it's more to do family economics .... I travel 75 miles there and back to my place of work every day - a friend is a male nurse and travels to work via East Coast - why? Because he can't afford the rent in London to move down here. He literally works to keep himself afloat, and that's true of so many commuters it is unreal. Another slant on this... yesterday I went to the office, didn't take the car, but took the slow train. At the first change of station, I passed in front of a Parisian newspaper kiosk (that gives away my location!) - and glanced upon the front page of the Daily Express - the principal headline read "Migrants do take British Jobs", the secondary headline was about Bryan Ferry getting married and the third was some free offer for sweets (do people really buy this type of crap 'news'?). Putting the latter two headlines to one side, what the HS2 project only appears to do is perpetuate an internal jobs economic migration issue - if half the country is travelling to the other half to find a job and (in the best case) vice-versa, then the base problem isn't solved. It isn't addressing in any tangible form blue collar employment to replace the now quasi-defunct car industry in the West Midlands, the dockyards in the NE which are struggling to survive etc... and this has been going on for for years. I strongly believe (with my secondary school education - a hint about my age!) that £32bn would be better spent in part reviving trade apprenticeships and redeveloping local/regional economies to get a better overall balance - that requires gvt investment as well - it also requires a certain level of regional autonomy to execute - something that lacks (IMO) in the UK at the moment... dilbert 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2012 I wasn't sure how to interpret this statement. I initially read this as money implies greed, but in context it's more to do family economics .... Family and everything else economics as you no doubt discovered as you read on. It is, I s'pose, one of the symptoms of the London-centric nature of some parts of British commercial life. But then some other parts of British commercial life are centred elsewhere - part of the Thames Valley is akin to 'silicon valley' in the USA with a heavy concentration of the UK bases of computing hardware and software companies and nowadays very little 'industry' of any sort outside the older trading estates. But I can travel elsewhere in the country and find concentrations of the limited amount of remaining British heavy industry centred on former industrial heartlands but in much reduced quantity and offering far less employment than in the past. Earlier thsi week I watched the last dregs of c60,000 tonnes of Russian coal coming off a ship unloading in what had once been a centre of coal mining. It is difficult (except possibly in the case of coal mining) - even in retrospect - to assess the extent to which these changes have resulted from Govt policy or the efforts/lack of effort of those who ran older industries and those who worked in them but what we do know is that things have changed massively over the past 5 decades and no doubt change will continue. Whether Govt can direct money in a particular way to set the course of positive change is another issue but I do know that it has been extremely good - for far too longer - at misdirecting money in a way which has resulted in considerable negative change and much of Britain's industry and commerce has been just as good at doing that. In that context £32bn spent on the railway is in my view money that won't be wasted on some of the crackpot ideas we often get from the politicos - it will create construction jobs both directly and indirectly and it will create ongoing jobs in the transport sector. (BTW I am firm believer in recreating 'proper' apprenticeships in a wide range of skills in Britain but the demise of such training has been far more down to a bit of Govt action, and parsimonious management, which has discouraged such investment. Even in the 1970s - when my father was being officially encouraged to take on an apprentice - the practical impositions of doing so far outweighed any grant he would receive or any value he would gain from having an employee. the imposition of apprenticeships on small businesses goes far beyond something money can put right.) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Noted the HS1 - HS2 link but just how many trains are not going to stop at the main London termii. Still looks like it will be case of using the tube/Crossrail to get from HS1 to HS2. Edited January 13, 2012 by Butler Henderson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Commuting ? - In the 70's, for 6 months I caught a bus, (into town) then a train (Wigan Wallgate to Liverpool Exchange) then a ship (mersey ferry to Birkenhead). AND allways got a seat !! Loved every minute !! Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Noted the HS1 - HS2 link but just how many trains are not going to stop at the main London termii. Still looks like it will be case of using the tube/Crossrail to get from HS1 to HS2. Crossrail would be a bit extreme as a route to my mind - it's only about a 10 min walk from St Pancras to Euston or one stop on the tube - ideally I reckon a travelator would be a good bet - you not only allow an easy end-on connection between Euston and the Eurostars at St Pancras but you also solve some of the potential overcrowding issue at Euston by allowing passengers there access to the Piccadilly line and Thameslink. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 it's only about a 10 min walk from St Pancras to Euston or one stop on the tube - ideally I reckon a travelator would be a good bet - y It would have to be a 200mph high speed travelator though, to avoid bottlenecks in the journey. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 14, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2012 Crossrail would be a bit extreme as a route to my mind - it's only about a 10 min walk from St Pancras to Euston or one stop on the tube - ideally I reckon a travelator would be a good bet - you not only allow an easy end-on connection between Euston and the Eurostars at St Pancras but you also solve some of the potential overcrowding issue at Euston by allowing passengers there access to the Piccadilly line and Thameslink. Walking to St Pancras (as long as the weather is ok) is far quicker than taking the tube especially in view of the distance to the tube platforms from the mainline stations at both Euston and KX-St Pancras. As an side to the above I do wonder if this might result in something at long last being done about the access from Euston Square station as the walk from the 'wrong' end of the platforms is going to look ever more ridiculous (mind you the Circle etc Line service along there is now so bad I doubt if many folk will still be using it by the time HS2 opens!!) - this week I decided that over 4 hours on a Voyager was an attractive alternative to the Circle Line (honest). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 That's like choosing between the rack or thumbscrews... Dave. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 14, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 14, 2012 Noted the HS1 - HS2 link but just how many trains are not going to stop at the main London termii. Still looks like it will be case of using the tube/Crossrail to get from HS1 to HS2. To a great extent direct HS2 - HS1 trains will still depend on the UK government being willing to change its stance on UK border controls. At pressent all trains to / from Europe cannot be used by UK domestic passengers and can only stop at stations with extensive Passport and imigration facilaties. (Note that the reverse is not true in France - hence the seasonal services starting at Avignion & the in Alps can get away with tempory facilaties) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 To a great extent direct HS2 - HS1 trains will still depend on the UK government being willing to change its stance on UK border controls. I wish! Having recently undergone once again the experience of being herded through Checkpoint Charlie at St Pancras International before Christmas and Paris Nord after New Year it reminds me why I do not like airports. I wonder where the passport controls will be when ICEs start running to Amsterdam and Frankfurt? Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 14, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2012 I wish! Having recently undergone once again the experience of being herded through Checkpoint Charlie at St Pancras International before Christmas and Paris Nord after New Year it reminds me why I do not like airports. I wonder where the passport controls will be when ICEs start running to Amsterdam and Frankfurt? Chris Easy to forget nowadays that those foreign chappies were doing on-train passport checks for years so they might still be up to that part of it without too much trouble. The far bigger headache is not the passport checks but the Channel Tunnel Act's requirements for baggage etc security checking which means bags have to be scanned. But as portable machines were going to be used for that on Regional Eurostar it would presumably be feasible over the other side? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Noted the HS1 - HS2 link but just how many trains are not going to stop at the main London termii. Still looks like it will be case of using the tube/Crossrail to get from HS1 to HS2. .......ideally I reckon a travelator would be a good bet - you not only allow an easy end-on connection between Euston and the Eurostars at St Pancras but you also solve some of the potential overcrowding issue at Euston by allowing passengers there access to the Piccadilly line and Thameslink. Crossrail goes nowhere near these two stations, so that's no use. The HS2 plan incorporates a proposal to provide a direct link between the redeveloped Euston and SPI. Whether it's a travelator or vehicle based system (transit system etc) has yet to be decided. As an side to the above I do wonder if this might result in something at long last being done about the access from Euston Square station as the walk from the 'wrong' end of the platforms is going to look ever more ridiculous (mind you the Circle etc Line service along there is now so bad I doubt if many folk will still be using it by the time HS2 opens!!)..... Under the proposals for a total rebuild of Euston, its links to the Underground stations were going to be addressed. However, I'm sure I've seen a mention somewhere, that the present government want to cut back on the scope of the Euston plan. Something else to bear in mind; they expect at least a third of passengers to join or leave HS2 at OOC. connecting with Crossrail, GWML, West London line and possibly the tube. This is meant to put less pressure on Euston. To a great extent direct HS2 - HS1 trains will still depend on the UK government being willing to change its stance on UK border controls. At pressent all trains to / from Europe cannot be used by UK domestic passengers and can only stop at stations with extensive Passport and imigration facilaties. (Note that the reverse is not true in France - hence the seasonal services starting at Avignion & the in Alps can get away with tempory facilaties) There doesn't look like there will be any possibility of lifting the restrictions. If anything, the security and immigration arrangements may have to be tightened in future. ....The far bigger headache is not the passport checks but the Channel Tunnel Act's requirements for baggage etc security checking which means bags have to be scanned. But as portable machines were going to be used for that on Regional Eurostar it would presumably be feasible over the other side? Portable scanners on-board the trains would be as useless as a Chocolate Teapot. It's akin to shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. . Edited January 14, 2012 by Ron Ron Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Crossrail goes nowhere near these two stations, so that's no use. I was assuming by 'tube/crossrail' he meant something like the Victoria Line to Oxford Circus and then Crossrail out to Old Oak? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted January 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 30, 2012 Long article in the Derby Evening Telegraph in opposition to HS2 - "Eye wateringly expensive and won't benefit Derby" - article is promoted by better than hs2.org. http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/eye-wateringly-expensive-high-speed-rail-link/story-15077651-detail/story.html Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted January 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 30, 2012 Long article in the Derby Evening Telegraph in opposition to HS2 - "Eye wateringly expensive and won't benefit Derby" - article is promoted by better than hs2.org. http://www.thisisder...tail/story.html Mike trains only used at 56% capacity out of Euston at rush hour? Were they doing their survey during the morning or evening rush hour I wonder or have they combined the morning and evening figures to get this total? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts