Priory Road - North East Essex in BR days

[Caley Jim]

9 minutes ago, queensquare said:

I’d be interested in how you make your whistles, I always have trouble with these - I get close then they ping off, never to be seen again!

My method is to start at the top and work my way down the whistle (using a minidrill and needle files), leaving the spigot to go into the firebox until last.  Take this down as far as you dare, then grip the whistle in a pin vice and part it off by flexing at the join between stock and whistle.  If the spigot is too big for the hole, open out the hole.

 

Jim

[Izzy]

5 hours ago, queensquare said:

Great  work Bob. I’d be interested in how you make your whistles, I always have trouble with these - I get close then they ping off, never to be seen again!

 

Jerry

Thanks Jerry. Very slowly by hand is the answer I have settled on. That way I can just about stop them disappearing! Mind you no two quite end up the same……. I’ll take a shot or two.

 

Bob

[Izzy]

You whistled?

 

This morning I did the whistles. Generally whistles vary in size from about 2 1/2" in diameter up to around 4". The latter are the standard LMS designs. Many are very similar in looks. As 4" is just under 0.7mm in 2mm I use hard brass rod of that size which then allows a bit of wriggle room. A few too many strokes of a needle file will soon reduce the size below that required and taking metal off is easier than trying to put it on........

 

I use a long length of rod so I can revolve it in my hand while filing and start off just forming the top. Then use a sharp scalpel to make a 'cut' where the bell finishes and also make one for drilling a 0.3mm cross hole. This is perhaps the hardest part to do. Where the hole is to be I file a flat to allow a scriber to indent a starting point.  This size of drill snaps all too easily so slow and careful work is needed. It can take 5-8mins or more. When you consider it's the equivalent to hand drilling 1/2" thick brass with a 1/4" drill it's not really surprising. 

 

 

Next some 9thou steel guitar wire is soldered in and then the rest of the shaping can be accomplished.

 

I used a flat pointed and knife edge for this. Just a few strokes can round off the square edges and reduce the lower portion as it's rotated. I compare with a drawing but mostly rely on what looks right to my eye.

 

 

The finish isn't marvelous at high magnification but looks okay with ordinary viewing. 

 

 

As you can see there is some variation between those I made this morning.

 

 

In the normal course of events I'd only make one at a time so doing three one after the other while my 'eye' was in was interesting. One is deliberately slightly smaller than the others because this is for the L1 and which seems to be shorter.  

 

However when one considers the sizes involved I feel that they are decent enough to pass muster whatever differences might exist.

 

 

Hope this is of use and interest.

 

Bob

[CF MRC]

I find that wrought gold turns very nicely for whistles…

 

Tim

[Izzy]

 

Now that all the turning has been done and the lathe put away I've made up the first smokebox door, for the J69/1. Thin strips of shim brass plus 0.3mm rod for the hinge strapping. 

 

 

It looked a bit better once cleaned up

 

 

The handles were 0.5 rod squashed on the ends to drill 0.3mm to hang on the 0.5mm rod pushed into the middle thinned to 0.3mm to take them. The handles were thinned down after drilling but I'm not sure I took them down far enough, they still look a bit fat even before a layer of paint is added.

 

 

 It's appears to look okay tested on the loco. 

 

 

I also turned some cab windows. These are 3.2mm stock bored 2.5mm and 0.5mm thick.

 

 

The fronts are just push fitted at present.

 

 

I'm kind of hoping I can file some 'glass' of some description to fit inside. Mostly I use acrylic sheet salvaged from packaging. 

 

Some thin - 2mm - 470uf tantalums have also arrived. These are about the same footprint as the MX615 so I'm hoping to fit one on the floor with the decoder.

 

 

A base plate of single sided pcb has been added to the chassis for them to sit on. This is the same basic arrangement as I made with the N7. It's going to be a tight squeeze.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In connection with this I have made and fitted the cab doors along with the beading and handrails to get an idea how it could go without being obvious.

 

 

 

I don't think using two will work as it will bring it all too high so 470uf will have to do. Obviously it will look different once all the surplus wires are off completely and the rest trimmed to fit. Enough room though for the 16v Zenner diode and other diode and resistor although working out how to fit and run all the wiring circuits, the best and easiest routes, has yet to be finalised - as with so much else!

 

Bob

[queensquare]

Another really useful post Bob, many thanks. I’ve got some of these 470uf tantalum’s on their way to me so I’ll be interested in how you find the performance with just the one. The three locos I’ve so far fitted with stay alive  have two of these plus a Youchoos circuit as I had the room. The difference in running quality is like night and day. I’d love to retrofit some of my older, smaller locos with stay alive and a single 470uf plus home brewed circuit might just fit.

 

Jerry

[Izzy]

Okay, since posting the shots I was increasingly unhappy with the smokebox door handles. So I have just re-done them using 0.3mm rod. Squeezed the ends the same and managed to drill 0.3mm. Although the lighting levels have changed I think they are a marked improvement. 

 

 

It's often surprising what small size changes can make appearance wise in this scale. 

 

Bob

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

...... I’ve got some of these 470uf tantalum’s on their way to me so I’ll be interested in how you find the performance with just the one. The three locos I’ve so far fitted with stay alive  have two of these plus a Youchoos circuit as I had the room. The difference in running quality is like night and day. I’d love to retrofit some of my older, smaller locos with stay alive and a single 470uf plus home brewed circuit might just fit.

I've recently fitted two of my locos with 470uf flat/wide caps.  The first was my recent 2-4-0 which I found was somewhat lacking in traction.  I therefore moved the decoder + stay-alive circuit to sit alongside the motor and replaced the 4 x 220uf caps which had been there with two 470uf's, one on top of the other, at the front of the tender.  The theory was that caps are heavier than the decoder, so would move the weight to the front of the tender where it could be passed on to the rear of the loco.  This has worked fairly well, though traction is still a bit limited.

 

The second was my little Drummond 0-4-4T which suddenly threw a short.  On checking I couldn't find where that was, but discovered the CT decoder was blown.  I suspect the Branchlines minimotor had drawn too much current.  It now has a Tramfabriek 0615 motor with a Zimo MX615 decoder along one side and the stay-alive circuit and a 470uf cap on the other.  It took a little bit of tuning in Decoder Pro to 'tame' the motor, but it is now running well.

 

Jim

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

Another really useful post Bob, many thanks. I’ve got some of these 470uf tantalum’s on their way to me so I’ll be interested in how you find the performance with just the one. The three locos I’ve so far fitted with stay alive  have two of these plus a Youchoos circuit as I had the room. The difference in running quality is like night and day. I’d love to retrofit some of my older, smaller locos with stay alive and a single 470uf plus home brewed circuit might just fit.

 

Jerry

Thanks Jerry, I’m always glad my posts are of use to others. Yes, I will likewise be interested to see what difference, if any, is noticeable between just the one 470uf and a larger figure. Seeing as it’s just motor/decoder drain, no sound or lights, it might be quite enough.
 

A bigger issue sometimes is in finding the room for the other parts I have discovered. I was lucky here in that I just rode on the coat tails of Nick Mitchell when he first posted about things in the coal tank thread and very kindly provided eBay links to the needed bits for home brews. I’m not really sure many of my installs would have been possible any other way. I had enough of these bits to have seen me through until recently when finding more has proved more difficult. But like you I do find all the effort really worth while. I didn’t need much convincing after seeing Nigel Cliffe’s tiny 02 crawling around one of my layouts without a care in the world but lacked the nerve until Nick’s posting. It is challenging, but then so is 2mm/2FS to many so we’re mostly there!

 

The only locos I haven’t fitted are my bogie diesels. Not the home brew 15/16 nor the Farish 20/24/31. Their weight seems to offset the need which is handy as there isn’t really the room without major re-working with any of them.

 

Bob

[Izzy]

 Keeping Going

 

I have now installed the MX615 and 470uf stay-alive pack in the J69/1. 

 

As it's just a single tantalum I got the idea to solder the 16v Zenner diode in place directly on it along with the resistor & diode. 

 

 

 

 

 

I could then add short wires for the common+ and ground and then wrap tamiya masking tape around and in-between to insulate it all, a multi layer sandwich affair. So the decoder was insulated from the stay-alive parts as well as the loco body.

 

 

 

 

 

I cut a couple of slots for the track feed wires and used a bit of d/s tape to hold the whole lot down on the pcb. 

 

 

Normally I arrange pads of pcb for the motor wire connections but as there wasn't really any room I just soldered them together and sat them each side of the motor sandwiched between more layers of tamiya tape . This was needed because these motors don't have solder tag connections, the wires coming out of the end cap. These I now fold over and cryno together to prevent them fracturing as they enter the cap. I have had this happen in the past rendering the motor useless as there is then no way of attaching more wires. 

 

 

 

 

 

Then I fired up the laptop and JMRI to see what the result was. Always a nervous time in case I have made an error somewhere. But on the program track it read okay. Phew! 

 

On the throttle it ran okay at the default settings. Between step 3/4/5 of 28 ( I only ever use 28 SS) I got about an 1/8th of a wheel revolution when lifted off the track. So I think just 470uf is more than adequate for my needs. 

 

However, being picky I did notice that at the automatic motor settings Zimo now set as default when starting from rest on SS1 there was a slight jerk when moving off.  So I set cv9 & cv56 to the fixed settings Zimo have suggested as a baseline for coreless in past firmware (this version is 40). So cv9 to 51 and cv56 to 133. This produced what I like, a more gradual move away from rest. 

 

Right, on with the body...

 

Bob

 

 

 

Edited January 8 by Izzy
add a bit

[Izzy]

On 06/01/2024 at 17:43, Caley Jim said:

It now has a Tramfabriek 0615 motor with a Zimo MX615 decoder along one side and the stay-alive circuit and a 470uf cap on the other.  It took a little bit of tuning in Decoder Pro to 'tame' the motor, but it is now running well.

That’s very interesting Jim. With both the MX615’s I’ve now used they have run off like hares compared to previous Zimos. I don’t know whether it’s just these particular decoders or firmware changes although I rather suspect the latter. That the default speed curve has been altered with more recent firmware versions. These are v40.
 

Usually I just change the address, add acc/dec (20-40 normally), plus dial in 51/133 for cv9/56 respectively for the coreless. But with these I have tried both pulling down cv6 on the basic speed points or using a modified speed curve to get running speed levels to match previous Zimo/CT decoders. While the Hunslet 05 is now satisfactory - I ended up with cv6 at 65, so start 0, mid 65, top 255, with the J69/1 I am still trying to find the sweet spot. 
 

Bob

[Clive Mortimore]

OK Bob, you already amaze me with your micro engineering skills in making such wonderful model locos but to bung in a DCC chip and stay alive when most 4mm modellers struggle to fit them in big diesel outline model locos goes beyond amazing.

 

As for the DCC side of things, that is like a satellite passing over my head. 

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

OK Bob, you already amaze me with your micro engineering skills in making such wonderful model locos but to bung in a DCC chip and stay alive when most 4mm modellers struggle to fit them in big diesel outline model locos goes beyond amazing.

 

As for the DCC side of things, that is like a satellite passing over my head. 

 

That's very kind of you to say Clive, thanks. I'll admit I've always liked a challenge but there are still times I wished I just used DC, and especially where costs are involved. But then I think of all the things I've done to try and get decent/perfect running using it in the past. However I do like the simplicity of DCC, well as I have arranged it, the go anywhere nature sans all the section switches. Strangely enough I've come to realise that it has perhaps as much advantage, maybe more, for a small/minimum size layout as with a larger one. But it has taken an awful lot of working out, the understanding of the various aspects, to home in on how I wanted to use it as compared to others. For me in the simplest way possible, only being interested in basic loco control and performance.

 

Bob

 

 

Edited January 10 by Izzy

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

OK Bob, you already amaze me with your micro engineering skills in making such wonderful model locos but to bung in a DCC chip and stay alive when most 4mm modellers struggle to fit them in big diesel outline model locos goes beyond amazing.

 

As for the DCC side of things, that is like a satellite passing over my head. 

You forgot 'and make it look easy"

 

[Caley Jim]

5 hours ago, Izzy said:

That’s very interesting Jim. With both the MX615’s I’ve now used they have run off like hares compared to previous Zimos. I don’t know whether it’s just these particular decoders or firmware changes although I rather suspect the latter. That the default speed curve has been altered with more recent firmware versions. These are v40.
 

Usually I just change the address, add acc/dec (20-40 normally), plus dial in 51/133 for cv9/56 respectively for the coreless. But with these I have tried both pulling down cv6 on the basic speed points or using a modified speed curve to get running speed levels to match previous Zimo/CT decoders. While the Hunslet 05 is now satisfactory - I ended up with cv6 at 65, so start 0, mid 65, top 255, with the J69/1 I am still trying to find the sweet spot. 
 

Bob

Bob,  I'm doing all my programming with Decoder Pro in my PC via a Sprog, guided by @Nigelcliffe's article on the 2MM SA website, so I'm not aware of the values in each CV.  I usually contain the speed by changing the reference voltage as Nigel advises, but with this one I found that setting that to anything other than 0 stopped it working altogether!  I therefore resorted to the speed table, set the top speed to half and then 'matched ends'.   Screenshot below.

 

Not entirely sure what 'forward trim' and 'reverse trim' do, but will be able to consult with the guru on Saturday at or AG meeting.

 

And BTW, @Clive Mortimore, much of this is way over my head too!  I just follow advice and instructions from said guru!

 

Jim

 

[Izzy]

5 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

Bob,  I'm doing all my programming with Decoder Pro in my PC via a Sprog,

 

Yes, so do I Jim. This is what I often use as with the J69/1, the basic motor control tab.

 

 

The advantage is that with just adjusting the Vmid I can do that on-the-fly using POM on the layout, this being cv6. Vstart is cv2 and Vhigh cv5. cv3 & cv4 are acc/dec respectively.  I often do the same with them, make adjustments on POM. I always save all to the Decoder Pro roster after to keep the records correct. I know I've said it before but I wouldn't be without my Sprog + JMRI. If I could only have one piece of DCC equipment it would be these (which I class as one hardware/software combination).

 

Bob

[Caley Jim]

I haven't tried playing with these setting.  must give it a go.  Agree about the Sprog+JMRI.   The CR Jumbo I built recently has a considerable amount of exponential acceleration programmed into it.  If you set the controller to around half speed nothing appears to happen at first, then it very slowly starts to pull away.

 

Jim

[DavidLong]

On 10/01/2024 at 11:14, Izzy said:

 

Strangely enough I've come to realise that it has perhaps as much advantage, maybe more, for a small/minimum size layout as with a larger one.

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more, Bob. I get tired of comments about DCC only being suitable for large(ish) layouts. At bottom it is a control system, nothing more and nothing less. The control that it gives, especially with stay-alives, is quite outstanding in 2mm/N and this is especially appreciated on small layouts where slow and steady movement is very important.

Like all digital systems there are wilder shores to explore for those who have the desire but I don't and it works just fine for me.

 

Hate to say it, Bob, but that Buck could yet be your finest hour!*

 

David

 

* Doesn't mean that you should give up on some more wonders!

[woodenhead]

I found adding a Lais to my decade old Farish 04 and 08 game changing, now I can watch them effortlessly crawl about the layout without worry they will hit a dead spot on a code 55 point or lose power due to the wheel not interfacing with the contacts.

 

I've added stay alives to other locos too and a poorly Dapol 52 has had a new lease of life plus booming sound with a Lais.

 

I think it has also spurred me to begin looking at 2mm finescale as getting over taking a loco to bits, shaving off metal and wiring up chips, speakers and stay alives has given me the confidence to think about other improvements.

[Izzy]

3 hours ago, DavidLong said:

Hate to say it, Bob, but that Buck could yet be your finest hour!*

 

That's kind of you to say David, and is a bit ironic given how it was originally intended to exist.

The first N gauge locos I had were a pair of Graham Farish J69’s bought new when they first arrived in the GER blue livery and were my introduction to N gauge. In the late ‘70’s they were sold off with the rest of my N stuff when I moved on to P4 but my fond memories of them have remained with me ever since. In more recent times I have often thought about finding one second hand and fitting the body onto a 2FS chassis but looking at the pictures I have seen of them I realised that perhaps they weren’t as good as my memories seemed to suggest they were. So having the complete set of John Gardner loco drawings from the GE society I decided that perhaps the answer was to scratch build one in lieu of the memory of them. I have to admit I think I probably made the right choice.

 

Bob

[CF MRC]

I had two of those Graham Farish ‘standard’  engines: they worked as bankers on my old layout. With two working together you needed ear defenders and they used to like shedding their coupling rods as well. Pretty grim really.  
 

Tim
 

 

Edited January 11 by CF MRC

[Izzy]

9 hours ago, CF MRC said:

I had two of those Graham Farish ‘standard’  engines: they worked as bankers on my old layout. With two working together you needed ear defenders and they used to like shedding their coupling rods as well. Pretty grim really.  
 

Tim
 

 

 

Ah yes, it's funny how rose-tinted your memories can sometimes get! Selective memory I think they call it. I'd rather forgotten how poor Farish were at the time compared with the likes of Arnold/Minitrix etc.  Happy days ........ahem....

 

Bob

[Izzy]

Having soldered the front windows in place I then added the coal bars to the rear ones and fitted them. This was done by cutting the bars (36thou PB wire) over length, placing them in position on the drawing with d/s tape and soldering the window to them. Then trimming to size before also soldering into position. As the windows rotated fairly easily I tack soldered them to ensure they were vertical before final fixing. 

 

 

 

Once this was done it then occurred to me that I had yet to make the cab roof. I used the drawing to help with placing the 'rivets' in roughly the right places before adding the ventilator and rainstrips.

 

 

 

As per my preference the cab roof is designed to just be a push fit into place so I can gain access to the interior so  shaped struts were fitted underneath to both help keep the roof shape but also be a firm fit on the inside of the front/back. You will see that they had to be shaped to clear the windows, which being 0.5mm thick are raised on both the inside and outside faces of the cab. 

 

 

Then I spent some time fiddling around fitting the front sandbox fillers and handrails. I don't know about others but I find adding the details to anything I build, locos, rolling stock, buildings etc. very time consuming but utterly necessary as they transform whatever it is from being quite bland to something with a measure of individually about them. 

 

 

 

So a long way to go yet as it will have the full condensing gear some carried all their lives. I have a couple of suspects in mind, both of which appear to have worked in North East Essex towards the end of their lives.  

 

Bob

[bécasse]

One useful wheeze (not that you appear to have needed it) when fitting coal rail fitted cab windows is to leave one of the central rails long so that it will protrude above the cab roof when fitted. The extra length makes it much easier to check visually that you do have the rails truly vertical, and, once everything is soldered correctly in place, it is easy to cut or file the single over length rail back to its correct length.

[yaxxbarl]

Bob,

 

On the rear windows/spectacle plates, how did you cut the rings for them? Was it from a piece of suitably sized tube?

 

Cheers,

 

John