'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Martin S-C]

11 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

Morning all,

 

Thanks for the continued feedback. I'm going to be looking in to a variety of things moving forward.

One of these being the potential of adding a full brake to the range.

I'll be sure to post back once I have any more information to share.

 

Cheers,

Dave

I did mention this before but would you please consider a clerestory roof version?

[t-b-g]

There is a thread running elsewhere about GER carriages being released as etched kits by David Eveleigh. He does 4 and 6 wheeled varieties in 4mm which have been enlarged from his 2mm scale kits.

 

Using his etched sides as an overlay might be a possibility if the lengths suit.

 

I see two groups of potential purchasers for these new carriages. Those who are not to fussy about every detail being right and those who do like to get things right but see them as a stopgap/quicky way to get a layout up and running with a view to replacing them or perhaps rebuilding them with correct sides/ends/roof detail later.

 

At the prices given, doing surgery to them is not a "ruin an expensive model" no go area.

[MarkSG]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

This holier-than-thou attitude, that making things is more fun than buying them, has bedevilled this hobby as long as I have been a modeller, and I'm almost 71. Many of us aren't very interested in building kits per se, still less scratch-building. We want to run realistic layouts with reasonably authentic trains, preferably to a timetable. Whatever gets us to that goal before we die is likely to sell. Hattons seem to have some idea about us. 

 

Making some things is more fun than buying them. It's just that different people have more fun with different things. As a railway modeller, I really enjoy making scenery. I will buy individual items to be part of the scenery (eg, plastic sheep, cows, etc), but I can't imagine myself ever being happy with one of those pre-formed baseboards from the likes of Noch - they're just too limited for my tastes. And I like my scenery to look good, and I will spend time working on it.

 

When it comes to locos and rolling stock, though, I prefer to buy them ready made. I'm not anti-kit, I'll use them if they meet a need, and I have even scratchbuilt the odd item (the very odd item!) of rolling stock in the past. But, on the whole, I prefer to spend my finite amount of time creating a good-looking layout on which to run the models rather than spend a lot of time making the models themselves.

 

Other people have different preferences. Some people find kit-building or scratchbuilding to be an ideal means of whiling away the hours, and enjoy the greater range of possibilities that it offers. For them, RTR is like pre-formed baseboards are for me - too limiting. 

 

I admire the dedicated kitbuilders and scratchbuilders, but I have no real inclination to join them. But I don't find them holier-than-thou, either. They're doing what they want to do, I'm doing what I want to do. We're all different, and there's no single "right" way to enjoy the hobby.

 

(I don't particularly care much about running to a timetable, either. But there are differing opinions on that, too!)

 

[PhilJ W]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

Challenge accepted!

 

 

The LT&S had six wheel brake thirds with a pair of compartments either side of the guards compartment.

[Edwardian]

21 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

There is a thread running elsewhere about GER carriages being released as etched kits by David Eveleigh. He does 4 and 6 wheeled varieties in 4mm which have been enlarged from his 2mm scale kits.

 

Using his etched sides as an overlay might be a possibility if the lengths suit.

 

 

 

The forthcoming 6-wheeler kits are complete with underframes etc, so won't need an alternative, unless you don't want to build them,  Guy Rixon produces the 'castings' on Shapeways.  These are the Holden standard types built 1886-1896 to either 32' or 34'6".  Note the w/b of these is 10' + 10', rather than the 10'6" + 10'6" of the planned Hattons u/f.

 

The 4-wheelers are body kits, though I know David has considered producing an underframe etch. IIRC these are various lengths; the dia.101 First would be 26', same length as the Hattons 4-wheeler. 

 

EDIT: Actually, they are re-designed/new designs for 4mm; scaling up doesn't work that well.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Edwardian

[Buhar]

A quick run through Longworth on BR's inheritance from the LMS shows the following in respect of passenger or guard carrying vehicles.  It's not a lot.

 

Only one 4 wheeled type (1st, 3rd and Brake 3rd) from the Caley (I think this was the Balerno Branch stock - an 0-4-4T is mandatory).

 

For 6 wheelers:-

CR Full Brakes

HR Full Brakes

LNWR Milk Brakes

 

Plus LMS Full Brakes (later designated Stove R) but not from a pre-grouping lineage.

 

There were Fruit Vans, CCTs, Scenery Trucks and the like, but I have excluded these.

 

So a generic full brake in BR Crimson is a possible.

 

Alan

[PhilJ W]

Mention of milk traffic made me think. What about a full brake with slatted doors or a four wheel milk van as per the preserved MET example?

[Nearholmer]

Good idea, especially since, and I'm open to correction by Mr Snowdon,I don't think the Met had any six-wheelers. Didn't they go direct from 4w to bogies for the outer areas?

[Martin S-C]

7 hours ago, BackRoomBoffin said:

If I were to buy and use these, in whatever livery, I'd be sorely tempted to take the self-justifying approach that these are (on what would almost certainly be a fictional branchline to a fictional location) coaches produced by a fictional railway that folded and whose stock was sold off to various other companies.

 

I agree. An earlier argument that the W&U coach would be "useless" unless you were modelling the T&KLR comes to mind. Such a coach model even priced at £100 would most likely have sold quite well, not just to the W&U modellers (even the post 1920s ones), but to collectors and freelancers. Freelance modelling is a bigger thing than many realise and some seem to have forgotten its existence altogether. The Hattons products are perfect for the fictional modeller.

 

The Rapido LNER dynamometer coach was £125. That sold pretty well.

[PhilJ W]

There is a W&U type coach in the Bachmann Thomas the Tank Engine series. Unfortunately it is far to long to be a 4 wheeler and too short for the bogie coach. Its on a four wheel chassis and has many other shortcomings. 

[sem34090]

Regarding Metropolitan stock, I'm now wondering what Hattons might know that we don't - What are they to run with? The Heljan Metrovick is too modern, as are LT Panniers, so might we be seeing an A or an E at some point? I for one would be buying at least one E and probably at least two As.

 

Ironic therefore that I might very well not buy the Met coaches due to the door shape, that for me being the most distinctive feature of Metropolitan stock. Mind you, I suppose I might be able to remedy it easily enough,.. I have upwards of 2 years to decide!

Edited October 9, 2019 by sem34090

[RailwayRibaldry]

On 08/10/2019 at 15:35, Budgie said:

I notice that none of the South Wales companies is as yet on the list. I would like to see the Taff Vale Railway and Rhymney Railway up there.

Well, good luck with that Taff

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

Hi all,

 

Here's a look at the proposed six wheel full brake that we've designed.

 

We propose to add 2 full brakes (with different running numbers) to each livery already announced.

 

Again, we'd love to hear feedback on this as it is always useful.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

Duckets please

And Horizontal bars across the baggage compartment windows.

Door handles too, Victorian style elaborate brass loops.

 

i would like to ask an obvious question, but confirm the panelling will be embossed Into the tooling, and not printed as an outline ?

 

the baggage van does look very useful for many interesting things.

[Martin S-C]

6 hours ago, Hitchin Junction said:

That said, the idea of these being hot sellers for attractive historical fiction train sets, for the younger, or less knowledgeable, is right on.

 

Once again the elitist tones drip forth. So a buyer of these models doesn't have a model railway, but a "train set", or is younger modeller (the implication is that 'younger' suggests some undisclosed shortcoming) or is satisfied with things that are not accurate due to a lack of knowledge of the prototypes.

This is getting quite depressing.

I shall support this splendid initiative by buying some of these carriages and those who do not wish to buy any are very welcome not to. Enjoy your wait for the perfectly accurate pre-grouping coaches from company X, I am sure they'll be along at some point (and then I'll buy some of them as well). Or there's kits of course, far more enjoyable that buying something ready to run.

[melmerby]

49 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

The LT&S had six wheel brake thirds with a pair of compartments either side of the guards compartment.

Similarly the GWR but it was set out 1st - 2nd - Guard - 2nd - 1st. (Later one assumes 1st & 3rd)

[Martin S-C]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

Challenge accepted!

 

 

You don't fool me, that's a kitbashed Ratio.

[melmerby]

This is quite an interesting thread, complete with input from Hattons Dave.

Maybe it should be re-titled "Design a Coach with Hattons"?

[Nearholmer]

Can the assembled body of knowledgable persons compile a list of known 4 and 6 wheelers (types, not individual carriages!) that remained in service to the end of the 1920s or beyond on The Big Four (light and independent railways are covered neatly in one Oakwood Press book), to help their fellow modellers?

 

I've already mentioned the fairly large fleet of ex-LC&DR ones on the SR.

 

The ex-North London out of Broad Street was a big user of four-wheelers until at least the late 1930s on trains that went to places off the electrified network, but their coaches were incredibly distinctive, so probably out of the running here.

 

There were four wheelers on ordinary services (as opposed to workmen's trains) in South Wales, on, I think, ex-Midland lines.

 

Six wheelers on the LNER in North Norfolk and on the ex-GER suburban lines, I think.

 

GWR 4 wheelers, but of the "Ratio Type", so again out of the running.

 

Where and what else?

 

We all like excuses, however feeble, to run what we like.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Nearholmer

[jamespetts]

The coach ends are very interesting - the brake end windows and the strong tumblehomes are very LBSCR, which only increases my surprise that they are (apparently) not planning this livery.

 

As to the full brake, it would seem to have more windows that many full brakes of the era had (although this is possibly consistent with Midland and GWR examples). However, a 6 wheel full brake in Southern olive green might be very useful for my 1930s layout (especially as these are plausibly LBSCR-looking), as these were used far longer than the equivalent passenger vehicles on, e.g., parcels trains or on secondary cross-country trains as brake vehicles, so this would definitely be a worthwhile thing to add to the range.

[Martin S-C]

4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

What would be the last year that it would be reasonable to run these: i.e. when did the last 4-wheel and 6-wheel carriages operate in revenue-earning service the UK (not counting NPCCS).

 

Just thinking that they would look rather nice in BR Crimson.

In the South Wales valleys ex-GW 4-wheelers were in use on miners trains into the mid-1950s. These wore early BR suburban crimson. However the Ratio kits cover these very well.

I think these vehicles were largely gone from revenue earning service by the early 30s. Some full brakes were converted to milk vans and similar duties. The more impoverised small railways used 4-wheel stock until later (e.g. Col Stephens lines).

 

It depends how fictional you are prepared to go. If you were to include a colliery, or some other fictional industry that requires a large workforce (or the rail traffic from/to such an industry) on your layout you could justify about 3 or 4 of the 4-wheelers on workmen's trains up to the 50s. My understanding is that these were 4-wheeled coaches. The 6-wheelers had better riding qualities and by WWII almost all surivors had their bodies discarded and the chassis used for other purposes.

[Martin S-C]

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

You wish (also mine too) for a D class could well be answered in 2020 from what I've heard - except from another company beginning with H.

Harrods are going to enter the 00 RTR market?

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

The forthcoming 6-wheeler kits are complete with underframes etc, so won't need an alternative, unless you don't want to build them,  Guy Rixon produces the 'castings' on Shapeways.  These are the Holden standard types built 1886-1896 to either 32' or 34'6".  Note the w/b of these is 10' + 10', rather than the 10'6" + 10'6" of the planned Hattons u/f.

 

The 4-wheelers are body kits, though I know David has considered producing an underframe etch. IIRC these are various lengths; the dia.101 First would be 26', same length as the Hattons 4-wheeler. 

 

EDIT: Actually, they are re-designed/new designs for 4mm; scaling up doesn't work that well.

 

It seems that many people still prefer adapting RTR to what they require rather than going down the full kit building route. Sticking new sides on a donor vehicle is a technique that has appeared on RMWeb before with LNER carriages to correct problems and increase variety. I suggest it here for those who want more accurate 4 and 6 wheelers without having to build the whole lot.

 

[LBRJ]

I can see this thread could go on for quite a while yet.

But my only real thought on reading of the forthcoming introduction of these models was "great!" Anything a bit different is always good.

Also they strike me as absolutely ideal for anyone interested in Light Railways - After all, if you have more or less made the whole thing up from scratch, just who is going to be able to tell you that certain details of your coaching stock are wrong?

[PhilJ W]

58 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Can the assembled body of knowledgable persons compile a list of known 4 and 6 wheelers (types, not individual carriages!) that remained in service to the end of the 1920s or beyond on The Big Four (light and independent railways are covered neatly in one Oakwood Press book), to help their fellow modellers?

 

I've already mentioned the fairly large fleet of ex-LC&DR ones on the SR.

 

The ex-North London out of Broad Street was a big user of four-wheelers until at least the late 1930s on trains that went to places off the electrified network, but their coaches were incredibly distinctive, so probably out of the running here.

 

There were four wheelers on ordinary services (as opposed to workmen's trains) in South Wales, on, I think, ex-Midland lines.

 

Six wheelers on the LNER in North Norfolk and on the ex-GER suburban lines, I think.

 

GWR 4 wheelers, but of the "Ratio Type", so again out of the running.

 

Where and what else?

 

We all like excuses, however feeble, to run what we like.

 

 

 

 

 

If anyone wanted to produce a 4/6 wheel carriage based on a real prototype either the NLR or MET stock would be the way to go. A great deal of both companies stock was sold off to minor railways not just the Col. Stevens lines. Ironic in a way as both companies stock had features that instantly identified their origin . 

[JCL]

2 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

I did mention this before but would you please consider a clerestory roof version?

 

If they don't, and the rooves are separate, I can imagine someone with 3D printing experience putting together aftermarket clerestory rooves (or roofs, depending on your persuasion). As they are modular, it will be interesting to see how these are assembled when they come out.