'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[melmerby]

16 hours ago, nathan70000 said:

 

 

Generic brake vans next? We need something to run with all those pretty PO wagons...

Most of which are of course generic, with liveries on wagon types the companies portrayed never owned.

[Wickham Green]

55 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Most of which are of course generic, with liveries on wagon types the companies portrayed never owned.

....... or never existed at all !

[Mark Saunders]

 "Making it up? Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough

   as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."

-- Marvin, the Paranoid Android
-- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

[RichardLong]

6 hours ago, sem34090 said:

If Dapol were to do that, in particular if they were to release any in SR Livery, then it would be interesting to compare sales of Hattons' SR-Livered four wheelers and Dapol's ex-LBSCR Stroudleys in SR livery.

My interest lies in SR-liveried 4-wheelers I could happily run behind IOW Terriers so If there were SR-liveried Stroudleys available I'd definitely buy some.  

 

I'd probably still buy *some* Hattons 4-wheelers as well, but not as many as I would otherwise.  

[Craigw]

On 23/10/2019 at 09:33, nathan70000 said:

 

 

Generic brake vans next? We need something to run with all those pretty PO wagons...

 

Great!

 

Generic brake vans at the end  of a train of  1923 RCH wagons painted in earlier liveries passing trains of generic 4 and 6 wheel coaches.

 

The future is so bright, I have to wear shades.

 

Craig W 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Craigw

[PatB]

5 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

Great!

 

Generic brake vans at the end  of a train of  1923 RCH wagons painted in earlier liveries passing trains of generic 4 and 6 wheel coaches.

 

The future is so bright, I have to wear shades.

 

Craig W 

Given the number of Freightliner or EWS liveried Class 66s I've seen hauling strings of PO liveried generic open wagons round exhibition layouts, I'd say the future's been here for 20 years. 

[Mark Saunders]

 

2 hours ago, PatB said:

Given the number of Freightliner or EWS liveried Class 66s I've seen hauling strings of PO liveried generic open wagons round exhibition layouts, I'd say the future's been here for 20 years. 

 

I suspect that most of these are really RCH 1923 specification mineral rather than opens that are in real liveries but on the wrong wagon. There is a fourteen volume series of books by Keith Turton on the subject with photographs illustrating such! 

 

Major manufacturers have have been getting more right than wrong recently!

 

Research is everything even down to paint shades and the row over what colour to paint it!

 

Mark Saunders 

[Wickham Green]

4 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

 

I suspect that most of these are really RCH 1923 specification mineral rather than opens that are in real liveries but on the wrong wagon. There is a fourteen volume series of books by Keith Turton on the subject with photographs illustrating such!  .......

pedantic correction 1 : there are now fifteen Turton volumes - and innumerable other sources

 

pedantic correction 2 : they show real liveries on the right wagon 

[johnarcher]

21 hours ago, HonestTom said:

 

 

If a manufacturer did decide to make specific pre-Grouping coaches, I could see LBSC 4-wheelers being a good shout. They have a long life if you include IOW service and there are two Brighton engines out that could pull them (three if you count the E2, four if you include the upcoming E1).

Yes, though I think maybe LSW ones would be useful too, just on the basis of how widely they spread second-hand. A great many minor or light railways seem to have had at least one or two ex-LSW coaches.

[HonestTom]

26 minutes ago, johnarcher said:

Yes, though I think maybe LSW ones would be useful too, just on the basis of how widely they spread second-hand. A great many minor or light railways seem to have had at least one or two ex-LSW coaches.

 

I believe it was the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire that ended up with an ex-LSW royal saloon. Sadly, woodworm got it before it could be preserved.

[Dunsignalling]

52 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

 

I suspect that most of these are really RCH 1923 specification mineral rather than opens that are in real liveries but on the wrong wagon. There is a fourteen volume series of books by Keith Turton on the subject with photographs illustrating such! 

 

Major manufacturers have have been getting more right than wrong recently!

 

Research is everything even down to paint shades and the row over what colour to paint it!

 

Mark Saunders 

Bachmann ones are, but (as you suggest) they often apply liveries more appropriate to older wagons to their RCH 1923 models. The tonnage is usually the giveaway in these cases.

 

However, despite both firms having better alternatives in their tooling suite, many of the PO opens that Dapol and Hornby put out are still based on the imaginary old Airfix stretched 7-plank body on a 10' wb steel chassis. 

 

There are also a lot of commissioned wagons around, from various sources and to the same specification, usually made in "Limited Edition" quantities by Dapol. Most of these carry the names of real firms, but frequently ones that did not own rail wagons, so the "livery" is often derived from their lorries or even the nameboard on the office wall. 

 

The SR and BR vans finished in alleged PO liveries (often breweries) are an even bigger joke.

 

Both categories go miles beyond the most charitable usage of the word "generic" and what Hatton's are proposing is on the level of forensic research by comparison,

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Wickham Green]

8 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Bachmann ones are, but (as you suggest) they often apply liveries more appropriate to older wagons to their RCH 1923 models. The tonnage is usually the giveaway in these cases. .....

What I can't fathom with Bachmann is their putting liveries appropriate to, say, a 1923 seven-planker on an eight-plank moulding - or vice-versa - when they could do things correctly. I have a significant pile of their wagons waiting for attention of one kind or another ( perhaps I should shunt them off to ebay sidings ). 

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

what Hatton's are proposing is on the level of forensic research by comparison

 

 

Here's hoping so.

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, Wickham Green said:

What I can't fathom with Bachmann is their putting liveries appropriate to, say, a 1923 seven-planker on an eight-plank moulding - or vice-versa - when they could do things correctly. I have a significant pile of their wagons waiting for attention of one kind or another ( perhaps I should shunt them off to ebay sidings ). 

A few I have are lettered as "10 Tons", too, which I generally presume to indicate a livery copied from a 1907 (or earlier) wagon.

 

 I think there was a 1923 specification for such a beast, but I suspect there were very few built. 

 

John

[johnarcher]

37 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

 

I believe it was the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire that ended up with an ex-LSW royal saloon. Sadly, woodworm got it before it could be preserved.

Yes, and six ex-LSW four-wheelers too IIRC, other Stephens lines had some too.

[Hattons Dave]

Morning all,

 

There has been some discussion regarding the various differences in roof furniture, wheels and braking equipment so I've put together a detail matrix for the liveries included in Batch 1.

 

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Ah, electric roof furniture...

 

 

bit disappointed there are no air braked 4 wheelers though.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ravenser]

3 hours ago, HonestTom said:

 

I believe it was the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire that ended up with an ex-LSW royal saloon. Sadly, woodworm got it before it could be preserved.

 

I saw Queen Adelaide's Saloon in the NR|M a few weeks back. What's this about woodworm?

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

Morning all,

 

There has been some discussion regarding the various differences in roof furniture, wheels and braking equipment so I've put together a detail matrix for the liveries included in Batch 1.

 

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

Afternoon Hattons Dave,

 

I know that these things have nothing to do with the real world but I do have a querie born out of curiosity about the made up world logic that the carriages inhabit.

 

Why bother to produce LNER phoney carriages? The LNER didn't build any four or six wheel carriages in the real world. If they are intended to be pre grouping stock in LNER livery, are they supposed to be phoney NER, GNR, GER or GCR etc. If that is the case, which ones and why are they in plain brown? To provide just two examples, GNR carriages were teak and NER carriages were painted by the LNER in phoney teak. Wouldn't phoney teak be the most appropriate livery for phoney carriages, rather than plain brown, even in the logic of their own world?

 

P.S. Why do the LNER phoney carriages have electric lights?

Edited October 24, 2019 by Headstock
three should read as four

[Wickham Green]

2 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

Morning all,

 

There has been some discussion regarding the various differences in roof furniture, wheels and braking equipment so I've put together a detail matrix for the liveries included in Batch 1.

 

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

I'd seriously question the three-hole wheels for BR period : three-hole disc wheels were normally 3' ( approx ) wagon type rather than 3'6'' ( approx ) carriage type .......... though Pullman Cars often had FOUR-hole 3'6'' wheels !

It's unlikely many six-wheelers and fewer four wheelers ever got upgraded to steel disc wheels and Mansells would have been the norm - though that may have been a little different north of the Thames !

[Ravenser]

4 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Hattons Dave,

 

I know that these things have nothing to do with the real world but I do have a querie born out of curiosity about the made up world logic that the carriages inhabit.

 

Why bother to produce LNER phoney carriages? The LNER didn't build any three or six wheel carriages in the real world. If they are intended to be pre grouping stock in LNER livery, are they supposed to be phoney NER, GNR, GER or GCR etc. If that is the case, which ones and why are they in plain brown? To provide just two examples, GNR carriages were teak and NER carriages were painted by the LNER in phoney teak. Wouldn't phoney teak be the most appropriate livery for phoney carriages rather than plain brown even in the logic of their own world?

 

P.S. Why do the LNER phoney carriages have electric lights?

 

The LNER were in the habit of painting elderly stock in plain brown once the teak was past it. Not "faux teak" - which was reserved for  new steel stock like the 1935 steel articulateds or the Thompson stock. NER coach livery  was red - NER 4 wheel coach  : it was only ECJS stock that was teak. Consequently ordinary NER coaches would all go into brown  (any reference for the claim that NER coacghes were repainted from red into "Faux teak", not LNER brown?).  GE livery was also red I believe.  The GE Section kept painting pre-grouping coaches brown (since they were deemed not long for this world) into the mid 1950s - there are occasional colour photos of them. (This knocks on the head the legend that there was a huge stock of GE carriage red paint lurking in a store at Felixstowe station which they broke out for use after a 25 year wait in 1948...). Oh here's a GE 4 wheeler carrying it's (unsuffixed) BR number GE 4 wheel saloon  Now is that carmine red, black or brown?? Looks too light for black to me 

 

The LNER had an embarrassing amount of 4 and 6 wheel coaches lingering in "excursion sets" as late as 1934-5. The well-known "tourist stock" was built in order to get rid of them... The Braintree line got rid of 6 wheelers in early 1940 - the Mid Suffolk only in 1949 or 1950... Not sure whether those were still gas-lit 

 

6 wheelers might well have been upgraded from gas lighting 

 

BTW - the LNER did build 4 wheel coaches - mostly NPCCS , but I think there were some 4 wheel trailers for the Sentinel  steam railcars

 

But I wasn't aware that Hattons were proposing a range of 3 wheel coaches......

 

I'm aware that sarcasm was intended, but that does require you to get your own facts absolutely straight, and not make generic statements

[PhilJ W]

47 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

Ah, electric roof furniture...

 

 

bit disappointed there are no air braked 4 wheelers though.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The GE were air braked and they are proposed in the second batch.

 

[Headstock]

59 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

The LNER were in the habit of painting elderly stock in plain brown once the teak was past it. Not "faux teak" - which was reserved for  new steel stock like the 1935 steel articulateds or the Thompson stock. NER coach livery  was red - NER 4 wheel coach  : it was only ECJS stock that was teak. Consequently ordinary NER coaches would all go into brown  (any reference for the claim that NER coacghes were repainted from red into "Faux teak", not LNER brown?).  GE livery was also red I believe.  The GE Section kept painting pre-grouping coaches brown (since they were deemed not long for this world) into the mid 1950s - there are occasional colour photos of them. (This knocks on the head the legend that there was a huge stock of GE carriage red paint lurking in a store at Felixstowe station which they broke out for use after a 25 year wait in 1948...). Oh here's a GE 4 wheeler carrying it's (unsuffixed) BR number GE 4 wheel saloon  Now is that carmine red, black or brown?? Looks too light for black to me 

 

The LNER had an embarrassing amount of 4 and 6 wheel coaches lingering in "excursion sets" as late as 1934-5. The well-known "tourist stock" was built in order to get rid of them... The Braintree line got rid of 6 wheelers in early 1940 - the Mid Suffolk only in 1949 or 1950... Not sure whether those were still gas-lit 

 

6 wheelers might well have been upgraded from gas lighting 

 

BTW - the LNER did build 4 wheel coaches - mostly NPCCS , but I think there were some 4 wheel trailers for the Sentinel  steam railcars

 

But I wasn't aware that Hattons were proposing a range of 3 wheel coaches......

 

I'm aware that sarcasm was intended, but that does require you to get your own facts absolutely straight, and not make generic statements

 

Not sarcastic at all.

 

There are plenty of surviving documents, painting schemes, traffic minutes, signed off by the great and the good, as well as plenty of fantastic photographs that confirm that the LNER intended to repaint all non teak passenger carriages in painted teak and this is what they set out doing. Plain painted brown carriages were a minority, even as their numbers increased in the late thirties and during the war. The idear that the LNER painted all, or a majority of its pre grouping stock brown is a creation of lazy railway modellers or researchers. I include a photograph of a NER carriage, formally in crimson, repainted into the so called 'faux teak' you claim never existed, or at least reserved only for steel articulated stock. The rest of you comments are not worth commenting on  at present, perhaps you could supply useful evidence in support.

 

 

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Headstock said:

 

Not sarcastic at all.

 

It was such that you could cut the sarcasm with a knife.

 

The heavy use of the word 'phoney' in your post set the tone.

[Headstock]

7 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It was such that you could cut the sarcasm with a knife.

 

The heavy use of the word 'phoney' in your post set the tone.

 

Nothing wrong with phoney, faux etc, It's the truth. I don't have any interest in these carriages as products but I find the internal logic around them quite fascinating.

Edited to add. I would have thought that it would be to the advantage of the purchaser to point out that plain brown was not the most typical livery that you would see these kind of carriages carrying in LNER days. Some of that depends on what pre grouping company they belonged to. For example, IF ex GNR, they would be overwhelmingly be genuine teak. What numbers are the phoney carriages going to carry? Phoney numbers or from real carriages of the GN, NE etc.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Headstock
add info