'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Wickham Green]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I do hope the paneling on these generic coaches is close enough to be able to make a 3 SUB .

You might get a Brightonj-bodied one ...... but I'm not getting drawn into that argument discussion !

[Dragonfly]

Luckily the answer regarding the LNER ones is far simpler: They're doing the GNR ones in teak, so for the sake of variety, they're providing the LNER ones in brown. It's not wrong, and while some people here are insistent on arguing as to which was more prevalent, it doesn't matter. Both brown and teak were used; both brown and teak are valid. Seems satisfactory enough to me.

The style of some member's arguments... demanding proof and references from the other, only to dismiss them without even looking them over, while themselves insisting that their own opinion be taken as gospel without providing references (only excuses)... doesn't quite seem in the noblest of spirits. A less arrogant approach may be more favourable?

 

So put down the sticks and agree to disagree; I'm pretty sure that the fact this thread got to Page 40-something before one (and only one) member appears to have taken issue with this detail, that the vast majority of us don't care or are satisfied with brown.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Dragonfly
Revert to original

[PhilJ W]

Some people seem to have forgotten that we are discussing a generic model.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

Some people seem to have forgotten that we are discussing a generic model.

Hi Phil 

 

Which is great. If they can be modified by modellers to represent a coach belonging to their favourite railway then isn't that wonderful, hopefully a cheaper way than buying a kit or easier than scratchbuilding. For those who say they can't do, for those who won't do and those who say this will do then they are winners. The losers are those who expect manufacturers to make just what they want. 

 

I do hope I can build a 3 SUB from them. 

[Steamport Southport]

56 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Phil 

 

Which is great. If they can be modified by modellers to represent a coach belonging to their favourite railway then isn't that wonderful, hopefully a cheaper way than buying a kit or easier than scratchbuilding. For those who say they can't do, for those who won't do and those who say this will do then they are winners. The losers are those who expect manufacturers to make just what they want. 

 

I do hope I can build a 3 SUB from them. 

 

Is it cheaper than building a kit?

 

Ratio GWR four wheelers can be found for about a tenner. About thirty quid for an accurate etched brass kit of a similar size and type.

 

Thirty quid for these. For the same length, you need to buy two for the same price as a Bachmann Birdcage coach (which some people who are worshipping these think is extortionate...). Two 30 foot carriages = one 60 footer.

 

The thing that "sells" these is the paint job. Yet people are thinking of cutting them up, which I reckon is a bit pointless as you would almost certainly need a full repaint. If you can repaint a carriage model to an acceptable standard then you can surely build a Ratio kit.

 

 

 

Jason

[Clive Mortimore]

18 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Is it cheaper than building a kit?

 

Ratio GWR four wheelers can be found for about a tenner. About thirty quid for an accurate etched brass kit of a similar size and type.

 

Thirty quid for these. For the same length, you need to buy two for the same price as a Bachmann Birdcage coach (which some people who are worshipping these think is extortionate...). Two 30 foot carriages = one 60 footer.

 

The thing that "sells" these is the paint job. Yet people are thinking of cutting them up, which I reckon is a bit pointless as you would almost certainly need a full repaint. If you can repaint a carriage model to an acceptable standard then you can surely build a Ratio kit.

 

 

 

Jason

Hi Jason

 

GWR 4 wheelers were not made into 3 SUBs as far as I know.

 

I have just checked Mousa Models web site as I believe Bill might do the largest range of kit 4 and 6 wheelers, I would add a tenner to your guess.

 

As someone who enjoys model making I sometimes use an RTR item as it is easier to convert than building a kit or scratchbuilding.

 

I am more than capable of making a Ratio kit. The underframe for a Stove R from plastic card, it goes through Peco slips with no problems. 

 

The Stove R from left over bits from making LMS all third non-gangway coaches.

 

 

A Gresley steel body BG under construction, if I want something I make it.

 

A trailer second from a class 127 DMU converted from a Lima 117 TC.

 

Not everyone is as daft as me and has a go at doing things for themselves, for these railway modellers I still think these coaches are a great idea, as they will enable many to enjoy their layouts with a nice looking period train even if not 100%. If you want something 100% then they could be, I don't know as I have not seen the final product, ideal for improvement into coaches that are suitable for the railway modeller's layout.

 

 

[Budgie]

I am getting rather fed up with this arguing about the colours of LNER carriages. To me it is not relevant in this thread; and if people want to continue it they should set up a new thread with an appropriate title.

[adb968008]

Ive missed the last 20 pages, but I understand theres an argument about accuracy of livery on a coach that never existed ?

 

I suppose it beats arguing about an accurate coach wearing a livery that never existed ?

 

48 pages in less than 3 weeks, and we've got another year+  to go yet... 

Edited October 25, 2019 by adb968008

[Willie Whizz]

On 24/10/2019 at 22:30, Ravenser said:

 

For the record, I never stated that the ex GN coaches used for the 1938 press run were painted brown. Indeed I said earlier that anything which was teak at Grouping - as GN coaches were - would in principle stay teak as long as the teak could be revived. 

 

The question was what would happen to elderly coaches that were inherited in 1923 with a coat of paint ie GE , NER, NBR (and query vintage GC stock)

 

...

 

 

I have no dog in this fight, nor have I done any research in 'primary' sources.  But pretty much every description of LNER practice I've ever read - which includes works by people who have done such research - agrees that the phrase I've put in bold above is correct as regards carriages which were originally varnished teak.  It is perfectly feasible, therefore, that the old carriages which were selected to run behind the Stirling Single were chosen precisely because they were still in good external condition and easy therefore to 'revive' with a couple of coats of varnish.  That does not mean they were typical of those which remained in stock of their kind by the late 1930s, before or after revival.

 

As regards vehicles which were not originally varnished teak, my best recollection of the sources is that they tend to be frankly somewhat vague on the issue as regards vehicles which were still going to be in first-line service for some time; but that they pretty much universally agree that for vehicles expected to be used on lesser services, when they required external refurbishment they would usually be painted brown on grounds of cost-effectiveness, i.e not just that it was cheaper but that also it was reasoned it wasn't worth the effort of attempting a faux-teak finish on a non-teak surface when the result was not going to be very satisfactory or long-lasting.  

Edited October 25, 2019 by Willie Whizz
Clarification of argument.

[PatB]

Don't forget that, to the price of a kit, you'll generally need to add couplings, wheels, paint and, for us ham-fisted normal mortals, transfers (if available) at least. Whilst, if you buy in bulk, the cost per vehicle is not huge, the initial outlay to get started is substantial. 

 

And, handy though they've been for the last 50 years, Ratio 4-wheelers can't do everything. 

 

As for pedantry over a generic coach, that's RMWeb. A couple of years back someone, with the best of intentions, started a thread on basic signalling for the beginner. IIRC it quickly morphed into a competition to find the most obscure exception to the general rules, with at least one faction asserting that, if you didn't follow the working practices used at Lower Foggington South Box on alternate Thursdays in 1937, you might as well just stick signals anywhere and then ignore them. 

 

So the only surprise here is that it's taken 40 odd pages to reach a similar point. 

[Craigw]

32 minutes ago, PatB said:

Don't forget that, to the price of a kit, you'll generally need to add couplings, wheels, paint and, for us ham-fisted normal mortals, transfers (if available) at least. Whilst, if you buy in bulk, the cost per vehicle is not huge, the initial outlay to get started is substantial. 

 

And, handy though they've been for the last 50 years, Ratio 4-wheelers can't do everything. 

 

As for pedantry over a generic coach, that's RMWeb. A couple of years back someone, with the best of intentions, started a thread on basic signalling for the beginner. IIRC it quickly morphed into a competition to find the most obscure exception to the general rules, with at least one faction asserting that, if you didn't follow the working practices used at Lower Foggington South Box on alternate Thursdays in 1937, you might as well just stick signals anywhere and then ignore them. 

 

So the only surprise here is that it's taken 40 odd pages to reach a similar point. 

 

The pedantry over a generic coach is the realisation that most of the railways had very different design factors and while they usually had some similarities it is tough to find common features across all railways. Hence what may seem to be generic enough to followers of some railways does not appear so to those with an interest in others. Trying to make something freelance that covers everything is a tough ask.

 

The discussion over liveries is because that is the supposedly tough part to do and people want that right. A generic coach in an incorrect livery for the railway it purports to be  a "close enough" design for is more than a little pointless.

 

I find the talk about cutting them up somewhat to be somewhat amusing as destroying the paint finish goes against the whole reason for doing them in the first place. I make an exception for Clive who has the ability and desire to cut anything up and turn it into something else!

 

Craig W

[No Decorum]

If someone else has made the point, please accept my apology; the thread is long!

 

If the Hatton’s generic coaches are a success, I wonder if Rails might step in and produce some “pedigree” coaches, modelled on authentic company designs.  After all, isn’t it the sort of thing the technique used to create the BR (exSECR) box vans is ideal for?

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Deuce. New balls please. 

One of the best comments to appear in this thread, well said OD

 

PS Although I do wonder if asking for more balls in this thread is the right idea?

Edited October 26, 2019 by The Stationmaster
Add the PS

[The Stationmaster]

18 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

If someone else has made the point, please accept my apology; the thread is long!

 

If the Hatton’s generic coaches are a success, I wonder if Rails might step in and produce some “pedigree” coaches, modelled on authentic company designs.  After all, isn’t it the sort of thing the technique used to create the BR (exSECR) box vans is ideal for?

I think anything like that depends on the technology/. And what works really well for the comparatively short length of a wagon body might not yet be sufficiently developed for a longer coach body?

[57xx]

12 hours ago, Budgie said:

I am getting rather fed up with this arguing about the colours of LNER carriages. To me it is not relevant in this thread; and if people want to continue it they should set up a new thread with an appropriate title.

 

Try the Ignore function, it really is most useful.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think anything like that depends on the technology/. And what works really well for the comparatively short length of a wagon body might not yet be sufficiently developed for a longer coach body?

 

Besides which, I think that for all the debate about the style of the Hattons carriages, the approach of making separate sides and ends must be the most economical way to go, avoiding too great an inventory of different components for a range of carriages having the same basic dimensions. 

[woodenhead]

28 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

If someone else has made the point, please accept my apology; the thread is long!

 

If the Hatton’s generic coaches are a success, I wonder if Rails might step in and produce some “pedigree” coaches, modelled on authentic company designs.  After all, isn’t it the sort of thing the technique used to create the BR (exSECR) box vans is ideal for?

 

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think anything like that depends on the technology/. And what works really well for the comparatively short length of a wagon body might not yet be sufficiently developed for a longer coach body?

Rails intimated in their recent video with Andy Y that coaches are within their plans for this new technology.

 

But even with the special tech there is still a floor below which it isnt feasible to produce an item - would any specific pre-grouping coach attract enough sales even with a locomotive i.e. would loco collectors also purchase coaches to go with said loco or will it just be those who want to run their trains.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

would loco collectors also purchase coaches to go with said loco

 

I dare say no-one will know until it's been tried.

[woodenhead]

I think what is interesting here is that there is a clear desire by both Rails and Hattons to try new things and also do things that complement each other's endeavors.

 

What we may end up with is a reasonable cost generic set of coaches with some more expensive (but competitive by traditional methods) printed coaches that are of specific prototypes.

 

Then modellers can mix, match and scratch.

[No Decorum]

22 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

 

Rails intimated in their recent video with Andy Y that coaches are within their plans for this new technology.

 

That comment hadn’t escaped me either.  The box vans were a trial of the new technology and appear to have been very successful – note Andy’s comment on the curve of the roof. Sadly, they sold out before I was ready to order. I shan’t be so sleepy when a re-run is announced! 

[Ravenser]

19 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Is it cheaper than building a kit?

 

Ratio GWR four wheelers can be found for about a tenner. About thirty quid for an accurate etched brass kit of a similar size and type.

 

Thirty quid for these. For the same length, you need to buy two for the same price as a Bachmann Birdcage coach (which some people who are worshipping these think is extortionate...). Two 30 foot carriages = one 60 footer.

 

The thing that "sells" these is the paint job. Yet people are thinking of cutting them up, which I reckon is a bit pointless as you would almost certainly need a full repaint. If you can repaint a carriage model to an acceptable standard then you can surely build a Ratio kit.

 

 

 

Jason

 

A point to note with the Ratio kits is that they are rather long wheelbase 4 wheelers, and if the chassis isn't dead square they'll fall off.

 

MJT/Dart do a small etched pack which gives you an inside bearing compensation unit for one end of the coach. I would strongly recommend this to anyone building one. Getting the chassis dead square is rather more challenging for something this long than it is for an ordinary 9' or 10' wb wagon, and compensation is sensible practice

 

The other point about the Ratio kits is that they aren't 6 wheelers. It's fairly clear that a large majority of the non bogie carriages around between the wars were 6 wheelers, and that roughly half of such carriages were with the LNER. Some fairly heroic assumptions have to be made to account for the presence of a Ratio 4 wheeler on an LNER layout

 

6 wheel chassis seem to be a bit of a black art, and I suspect what will sell the 6 wheelers is three axles and a RTR chassis that holds the road. If it's within 6" of scale length and wheelbase, and has reasonably similar panelling I think there'll be a modest market. I'm struggling even to think of kits for 6 wheelers in 4mm, unless you get into high-end etched brass from LRM, and I definitely see an opening for an equivalent of the Shirescenes range of alternative etched brass sides for the Ratio 4 wheeler (some of those sides are themselves compromised,...)

[Dunsignalling]

The Chivers kit for the LMS 6-wheel Fish van offers a novel solution to the underframe dilemma. A fixed centre wheelset with a "flat" at the bottom to clear the rails.

 

I initially thought it a compromise too far, but when on a layout, one hardly ever views stock at eye level, and it's rarely evident.

 

Bachmann USA do a 6-wheel 4-compartment clerestory coach in their TTTE range, "Emily's coach" with a flangeless centre wheelset. There is zero play either sideways or vertical and it runs well even over indifferent track. Surprisingly it's not glaringly obvious from two or three feet away even with white rims. However, the body is best viewed from an even greater distance IMHO!  

 

John

Edited October 26, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[w124bob]

On 11/10/2019 at 11:17, NHY 581 said:

Just announced. 

 

Hattons are to produce Hair shirts in a variety of liveries for those modellers who cannot bring themselves to purchase prototypically inaccurate stock regardless of how attractive and useful it might be. 

 

Rob. 

Does anyone know if there is an18.83 collar size?

[Budgie]

5 hours ago, 57xx said:

 

Try the Ignore function, it really is most useful.

 

What ignore function? I want to read this thread, but I don't want to read the arguments ovrr LNER coach colours. How can I set up an ignore function to let me do that?

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, w124bob said:

Does anyone know if there is an18.83 collar size?

They are available but not as widely worn as those 00 safety glasses with the blinkers on the sides.