Scotrail - to go back to public sector?

[roythebus]

Mention has been made of the franchising system, that may vey well change depending how Boris gets on with "delivering" brexit and which EU rules he is forced to keep obeying. It's not possible to discuss this matter without getting a bit political!

 

Maybe he wants Abellyup out of the way as it is a company owned by an EU government. What's next to go, RATP, Trenitalia? DB is already on the way out, maybe SNCF with HS1 and E*?  Maybe he's fed up with foreign governments financing their railways at our expense? Another poke in the eye for the EU.

Edited December 18, 2019 by roythebus

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, roythebus said:

Mention has been made of the franchising system, that may vey well change depending how Boris gets on with "delivering" brexit and which EU rules he is forced to keep obeying. It's not possible to discuss this matter without getting a bit political!

 

Maybe he wants Abellyup out of the way as it is a company owned by an EU government. What's next to go, RATP, Trenitalia? DB is already on the way out, maybe SNCF with HS1 and E*?

 

Erm.. this decision comes from the Scottish Government NOT WESTMINSTER! Transport is a devolved matter - David Camerons Government handed responsibility for letting the ScotRail franchise to the Scottish Parliament some years back!

 

As such it doesn't matter what Boris says, does or thinks - he and his minions in Whitehall have very little say in what happens to the Scotrail franchise - technically the Scottish Government could even nationalise it if they really wanted to.

[DavidB-AU]

It is completely devolved and does not require a public body tendering for the franchise. It's all in sections 23 and 24 of the Railways Act 1993.

 

The appropriate designating authority designates services as it considers "ought to be provided under franchise agreements". The "appropriate designating authority" and "appropriate franchising authority" in relation to Scotland-only services means the Scottish Ministers.

 

The Scottish Ministers may also designate cross-border services they consider should be provided under the same arrangement as Scotland-only services. This is why ScotRail operates to Carlisle and the Caledonian Sleeper is a Scottish franchise. The current designation includes Berwick-upon-Tweed and a notional timetable was written into the Abellio franchise but ORR moves at glacial speed. They can also designate any reopened/new stations south of the border on any future extension to the Borders Railway.

 

The Scottish Ministers can (relatively) simply decide that services provided by ScotRail ought not be provided under franchise agreements. No new tender is required and they can decide to run the services themselves, either through a public transport executive or a limited company. Of course it would need to sign new contracts with the ROSCOs and put in its own layer of management, but the staff on the ground would be the same with a new employer.

 

EDIT: Likewise the Welsh Ministers are the designating authority for Wales-only services or the Welsh components of Welsh services, but not cross-border services. So in theory the Welsh government could run the Wales-only part of the Wales & Borders franchise itself, but not the parts that extend over the border. That would be a much more complex decision.

 

Cheers
David

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by DavidB-AU

[ess1uk]

So in reality it is a bit of a non story being made out to be more than it is?

[TheQ]

Considering The  Government  owned Cal Mac, are taking the Scottish government to courts over other bids. this could get very messy..

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-government-sued-by-calmac-over-contract-failure-1-5056742

 

[DavidB-AU]

14 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

So in reality it is a bit of a non story being made out to be more than it is?

 

The only real story is Transport Scotland has decided not to exercise the option of extending the franchise from 7 to 10 years. It's not actually ending 3 years early. Taking it back into the public sector is of course one of many options they would consider.

 

Cheers

David

[caradoc]

10 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

Let’s not think that Cal-MAC will have no railway people to call upon to run the trains, it will have the majority of the current Scotrail management & staff through TUPE.

 

Abellio May take a few, retirement or other challenges may take a few but most will just change uniforms and keep battling on

 

the top few may set strategy but they certainly don’t ‘do’ and those that do ‘do’ will still be there

 

 

 

True, the majority of Scotrail staff will be the same, no matter who wins the franchise, or if indeed there is a franchise at all !

But the question remains, how would CalMac's 'top few' be qualified to direct strategy on the railway ? I do agree with the point about bus operators also lacking railway knowledge, but there is far greater overlap and common ground between their operations and the railways, than between inter-island ferries and railways.

 

[DavidB-AU]

Even the top people move between franchises all the time so there wouldn't be any problem recruiting somebody, or even the same person. For example the current MD of Abellio ScotRail previously worked for Arriva Northern and Govia London Midland. The current MD of Abellio East Midlands Railway previously worked for Stagecoach EMT, various National Express franchises, Prism Wales & West, and before that for ITV! Easy enough to recruit if it's a limited company owned by the Scottish Government, a few more hoops if it's a PTE.

 

Cheers

David

Edited December 19, 2019 by DavidB-AU

[Reorte]

15 hours ago, Eddie R v2.0 said:

Hopefully means the end of the HST project and we can get something more efficient and modern. 

 

Whatever for? Never been on anything more modern that I'd prefer to travel on.

[DavidB-AU]

11 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

Whatever for? Never been on anything more modern that I'd prefer to travel on.

 

Tornado?

[NorthBrit]

If  Scot-Rail is to go back to Public Sector  ------

"The next train to arrive at Dalmeny will be ------?"

 

[BernardTPM]

18 minutes ago, DavidB-AU said:

Tornado?

Not many seats on Tornado.

[Reorte]

4 minutes ago, Eddie R v2.0 said:

It’s 40plus year old technology that’s inefficient and unreliable. If a company was so minded, they could specify whatever seats and configuration of Multiple unit or new coaching stock that they wanted but it’s down to cost. 
The vast majority of people want a train to turn up on time, get a seat and arrive on time. Simple as that. 

 

Wasn't aware that they were particularly unreliable, and they seem efficient enough to do the job properly. Certainly don't seem to be any reasons to think that they're less capable at turning up on time with a seat than anything newer.

 

In any case they've been re-engined so the 40 year old technology bit doesn't stand up. In any case so what if it's 40 years old? It's whether or not it does the job well enough that matters, not how old it is. They've still got wheels, that's thousands of years old technology!

 

I find both the old and the new do a sufficient job on the practical front, and on the non-practical front I find the newer stuff a bit more unpleasant to be on (not that I've been on every new train from the last few years).

Edited December 19, 2019 by Reorte

[young37215]

50 minutes ago, Eddie R v2.0 said:

It’s 40plus year old technology that’s inefficient and unreliable. If a company was so minded, they could specify whatever seats and configuration of Multiple unit or new coaching stock that they wanted but it’s down to cost. 
The vast majority of people want a train to turn up on time, get a seat and arrive on time. Simple as that. 

 

You are closer to the ground than most and well placed to comment. I am suprised though at your experience and views, personally I though the HST cascade was a positive move for Scotland with increased capacity, improved ride quality and more powerful trains. The GWR short sets HST's all seem to be performing well which suggests that the concept works and that the issue is more one Scotrail specific. Could it be that your views are more a function of poor management/implementation of the HST's by Abellio? 

[royaloak]

3 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

The only real story is Transport Scotland has decided not to exercise the option of extending the franchise from 7 to 10 years. It's not actually ending 3 years early. Taking it back into the public sector is of course one of many options they would consider.

 

Cheers

David

Abellio could also have decided not to take extension, both parties have to agree for the extension to be actioned.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, roythebus said:

Mention has been made of the franchising system, that may vey well change depending how Boris gets on with "delivering" brexit and which EU rules he is forced to keep obeying. It's not possible to discuss this matter without getting a bit political!

 

Maybe he wants Abellyup out of the way as it is a company owned by an EU government. What's next to go, RATP, Trenitalia? DB is already on the way out, maybe SNCF with HS1 and E*?  Maybe he's fed up with foreign governments financing their railways at our expense? Another poke in the eye for the EU.

He'll have a job with Eurostar unless the Govt buys back what they sold.  And if/when the Thalys merger goes ahead it won't be there to buy back anyway unless the Govt buy into an internationally owned company.

[31A]

3 hours ago, Reorte said:

 

Wasn't aware that they were particularly unreliable, and they seem efficient enough to do the job properly. Certainly don't seem to be any reasons to think that they're less capable at turning up on time with a seat than anything newer.

 

In any case they've been re-engined so the 40 year old technology bit doesn't stand up. In any case so what if it's 40 years old? It's whether or not it does the job well enough that matters, not how old it is. They've still got wheels, that's thousands of years old technology!

 

I find both the old and the new do a sufficient job on the practical front, and on the non-practical front I find the newer stuff a bit more unpleasant to be on (not that I've been on every new train from the last few years).

 

I go to Scotland at least once a month to visit relatives and am usually at Waverley about 1130; it's not been unusual over the last few trips to see the 1132 Edinburgh-Aberdeen formed by a DMU vice HST; usually a 3-Car 170 but the other day it was a 2-Car 158 - a bit of a come down from the expected HST!

 

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

You are closer to the ground than most and well placed to comment. I am suprised though at your experience and views, personally I though the HST cascade was a positive move for Scotland with increased capacity, improved ride quality and more powerful trains. The GWR short sets HST's all seem to be performing well which suggests that the concept works and that the issue is more one Scotrail specific. Could it be that your views are more a function of poor management/implementation of the HST's by Abellio? 

 

Isn't the problem (like a bunch of problems elsewhere - aka Pacers continuing on into 2020) the fallout from the cascade problem caused elsewhere which has meant Scotrail didn't get the HST sets on time which meant there have been issues getting them through the refurb/rebuild process, with the result they have been forced to operate HSTs without dealing with any potential issues from being rundown by the previous TOC?

[The Stationmaster]

45 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Isn't the problem (like a bunch of problems elsewhere - aka Pacers continuing on into 2020) the fallout from the cascade problem caused elsewhere which has meant Scotrail didn't get the HST sets on time which meant there have been issues getting them through the refurb/rebuild process, with the result they have been forced to operate HSTs without dealing with any potential issues from being rundown by the previous TOC?

I'm not sure that HSTs were 'run down' by the previous TOc as it was still using them in top rank service until they had to be transferred away.  However they obviously wouldn't be bothering to spend their money to put them through shops once they knew when they would be going but that is hardly likely to affect many of the fleet.   Plus they were in any case supposed to receive various work before entering service in Scotland - presumably at Scotrail's expense.

[caradoc]

4 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Isn't the problem (like a bunch of problems elsewhere - aka Pacers continuing on into 2020) the fallout from the cascade problem caused elsewhere which has meant Scotrail didn't get the HST sets on time which meant there have been issues getting them through the refurb/rebuild process, with the result they have been forced to operate HSTs without dealing with any potential issues from being rundown by the previous TOC?

 

Is it not more the case that the conversion to power-operated doors has been far more difficult than anyone anticipated ?

And regarding reliability (and this nothing new), if you were told to transfer part of your fleet to another area or operator, which ones would you send away ?!!

 

[lmsforever]

The HST delays were not Scot rails fault   lack of  staff table to do the work  caused the main delay also corrosion on coaches took time to sort but they are well tried reliable units.The rolling stock in Scotland is excellent reliable and comfortable plus the work carried out on the track etc has made scotlands railways  will give any future operator a good basis to build on.

[young37215]

15 hours ago, Eddie R v2.0 said:

Without going into too much detail for obvious reasons, nobody covered themselves in glory with the HST project. 

 

Please accept my apologies for the question, in hindsight it was rather thoughtless to effectively ask you to slag off your employers on a public forum! 

 

I still believe that Scotrail will be glad that they got the HST's once the conversions have been completed and the power cars updated. Clearly the experiences gained on their introduction has been poor and I am sure that many of the reasons quoted in this thread are relevant to a greater or lesser extent. Personally I look forward to travelling through the Scottish landscape in a Mk3 rather than being subjected to the units that have infested Scotland for the last 30 years!

[scottystitch]

Whilst I agree the un-refurbished HST sets leave a lot to be desired, from a customer perspective, the refurbished examples are more than a step up from the 170s/158s that have gone before them, both in ride quality and noise.