Formula 1, 2020

[Andrew P]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

But why will Aston take a huge financial step into a technology Honda sees as a limited lifespan when they already have access to the best engine?

And Toto is now part of AM as well as Mers, so I cant see them changing engines.

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, Classsix T said:

Who? The linked story pertains to RB & AT, they don't have a choice but to change.

 

C6T. 

I guess Andy means Racing Point (soon to be Aston Martin), won’t change their engine. 
 

[Andrew P]

7 minutes ago, Classsix T said:

Who? The linked story pertains to RB & AT, they don't have a choice but to change.

 

C6T. 

 

5 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

I guess Andy means Racing Point (soon to be Aston Martin), won’t change their engine. 
 

Yes, Thanks Paul, that is what I meant, sorry not to be more clear.

[37114]

The interesting bit is does this news make Verstappen a free agent in 2022? I recall there were exit clauses in his contract and I imagine loss of a works engine would be one, I am sure he will be nervous as the years are passing by and he won't want to wait for years for a competitive car. I bet Lewis may want to nail down that multi year contract asap as otherwise he may find Mercedes looking at a cheaper, younger (and as fast) model for 2022? Or maybe Lewis is happy to retire then anyway.

[rocor]

4 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

They didn't exactly split on the best of terms. I always felt that RB's open criticism of Renault's power unit was a bit silly. I can understand the drivers being frustrated on the radio but the rest of the team should have been a bit more diplomatic.

 

When they returned to F1, I really believed that Honda had the ability to catch up within 2-3 seasons but it seems that even now they are still behind the Mercedes.

 

Mercedes did not seem interested in supplying their engines, presumably because they felt the RB chassis would make them a threat. I doubt that will have changed. Ferrari will probably be reluctant for the same reason.

Unless there are plans we have not heard of, it would seem a little late for another manufacturer to enter the formula by 2022.

 

I would imagine that Ferrari at the present time would be delighted to supply Red Bull with engines. Anything to slow them down.

[Classsix T]

Yeah, Red Bull and face time here chaps sorry. I was getting totally confused about any continued relationship between the fizzy pop maker and Aston Martin, which I now am reminded ends at the end of this season.

 

So yes the soon to be renamed Racing Point will be powered by Mercedes.

Leaving a headache of sourcing an alternative power plant for at least four years for Red Bull. Ignore my Honda ramblings.

 

C6T. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Classsix T

[Pete the Elaner]

2 minutes ago, rocor said:

 

I would imagine that Ferrari at the present time would be delighted to supply Red Bull with engines. Anything to slow them down.

 

True, but there are regulation changes due in 2022 & Ferrari have already hinted that they are working towards this (back to their usual 2nd position then ) rather than try to fix their problems for next year.

[Steadfast]

With the Aston Martin engine situation, don't forget that Daimler own shares in Aston, their road cars use breathed on AMG Mercedes units, a development of which is used in the Aston Martin GT cars. I can't see Aston using anything other than Mercedes, even in the long run.

As far as I'm aware, the race engine development for the GTs is still done by Prodrive, along with the actual car build and running of the team, so unless they contract it out to Prodrive, Aston Martin doesn't appear to have any race engine know how.

It looks like the world will have two Aston Martin Racings from 2021, one in green and  pink and run by the bloke who owns the road car company (Stroll) and one in fluorescent yellow and run from Banbury by Prodrive.

I'm still waiting (in my cloud coockoo land!) for the day the Subaru World Rally Team re-emerges into the WRC from Banbury...

 

Jo

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, 37114 said:

Mercedes looking at a cheaper, younger (and as fast) model for 2022? 

 

I suspect Seb will be free by then...

 

(Well he is younger...) 

[57xx]

On 28/09/2020 at 12:00, PMW said:

The difference was the purpose of the polystyrene blocks. The ones Vettel took out were only indicator boards, but the ones at Sochi were effectively a part of the race track, as they marked the exit route from the run off area for cars running wide, so had to be replaced.

 

No they're not, they are a chicane to slow people down who miss turn 1/2. Drivers are supposed to weave through them so as not to gain an advantage.

[57xx]

On 28/09/2020 at 17:17, Pete the Elaner said:

That wasn't the team's fault.

It was mainly his own fault for leaving the track on his first Q2 lap, which was on the medium tyres.

 

Lewis wanted to stay out and do another lap on his first Q2 stint. The team told him to come in - their fault.

[Oldddudders]

Our deliberations make some heroic assumptions about F1 going forward. Honda's rather bland statement does not specify exactly which aspect of the current car market has prompted this change of heart, but the rise and rise of the electric car may be part of it. And while I hear that electric car racing is so far dire, we know some major manufacturers see it as the inevitable future, and have redirected their sporting R&D accordingly. So is it the case that Honda sees the 2022 regs, widely expected to level the table a bit, as too little too late to support ongoing investment in fossil-fuel F1, when times are both tough and changing? 

[Classsix T]

43 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

I suspect Seb will be free by then...

 

(Well he is younger...) 

Two out of three ain't bad!

 

C6T. 

[57xx]

On 29/09/2020 at 18:07, Classsix T said:

The "main" business of selling quarter million pound supercars is suffering 'cos of a highly expensive vanity project? Heaven forfend! 

 

"Vanity project"? And there was me thinking that it all started with an F1  team created by some bloke called Bruce.

[Classsix T]

4 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

"Vanity project"? And there was me thinking that it all started with an F1  team created by some bloke called Bruce.

Mercedes started with a motorised tricycle, what's your point?

 

C6T. 

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, 37114 said:

The interesting bit is does this news make Verstappen a free agent in 2022? I recall there were exit clauses in his contract and I imagine loss of a works engine would be one, I am sure he will be nervous as the years are passing by and he won't want to wait for years for a competitive car. I bet Lewis may want to nail down that multi year contract asap as otherwise he may find Mercedes looking at a cheaper, younger (and as fast) model for 2022? Or maybe Lewis is happy to retire then anyway.

Lewis's interests beyond being sat in the car are growing - once he has the most titles and most wins (next week probably) then he may simply retire and whilst it would be great for us to see LH and MV side by side with the same engines I am not sure it will happen.  As he will likely win this season and next season looks another clear opportunity then 2022 then he has nothing left to add to except more of the same.

 

I do think the move by Honda to again leave F1 says they've probably got what they need from the sport again (is it three times now they've done this hokey cokey).

 

Whether or not F1 can attract any new engine manufacturers without a massive tilt towards full electrics now I don't know - it's a ticking clock towards the time that the only new cars will be electric and F1 loses all relevance for pushing boundaries of engine manufacturing if it remains with a combustion engine unless someone comes up with a technique to make hydrogen combustion better than hydrogen fuel cells.  So that means three engine manufacturers and Ferrari will have a new engine for 2022 so all is not lost to RB or they can make up with Renault.  

[Classsix T]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

 

I suspect Seb will be free by then...

 

(Well he is younger...) 

Actually, there's a wider implication to this, drivers moving teams I mean. 

 

Much like high profile footballers bringing with them potential sales of overpriced shirts to clubs, F1 drivers have sponsorship deals that go with them. My guess is that Seb possibly takes with him maybe Kapersky, DHL/UPS and Ray-Ban?*

 

None of us are party to the worth of any sponsorship deals of course, but financial clout like that can't be ignored. Unless you have to write a press release explaining why you're ditching Checo for Sebcrashtian. Flannel is a priority then. 

 

Given Seb's recent form however, he should be more worried about losing sponsorship dollars than he should be about having a paid seat. 

 

C6T. 

 

*assumption that they're driver sponsors not manufacturer, natch 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Classsix T

[57xx]

1 hour ago, Classsix T said:

Mercedes started with a motorised tricycle, what's your point?

 

C6T. 

 

The point is F1 is the main "business" and building posh cars is the sideline. It not the same as some soft drinks tycoon deciding he wants to buy his own race team.

[Classsix T]

3 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

The point is F1 is the main "business" and building posh cars is the sideline. It not the same as some soft drinks tycoon deciding he wants to buy his own race team.

According to the accounts the reverse is true of McLaren, Mike informed us of such. F1 isn't making McLaren money, take it or leave it, indeed it is hemorraging cash from the bottom line of the group.

 

As far as Red Bull is concerned it is an entirely different matter, brand awareness is their raison detre in F1, soapbox downhill or ruining a flightworthy Sea Vixen in a stupid paint scheme. (That kept the super sexy twin boom jet airborne admittedly.)

 

C6T. 

[rocor]

One down, three to go. As the car manufactures transition from ICE to electric powered vehicles, it will make increasingly less sense for them to develop F1 engines.

 

If F1 cars are to continue to be powered by ICE's, I envision that within the next five years the engines being a standardised component (maybe they will be supplied by Cosworth).

[Classsix T]

5 minutes ago, rocor said:

One down, three to go. As the car manufactures transition from ICE to electric powered vehicles, it will make increasingly less sense for them to develop F1 engines.

 

If F1 cars are to continue to be powered by ICE's, I envision that within the next five years the engines being a standardised component (maybe they will be supplied by Cosworth).

Difficult to predict and as Ian pointed out, a fruitless exercise in speculation anyway. 

 

At one time Toyota were the most cash flush motor manufacturer worldwide. I suspect the fact Porsche and Audi are no longer interested in LeMans...yadda yadda. 

 

Fact of the matter is, as spectators, we're just along for the ride.

 

C6T. 

[PaulRhB]

4 hours ago, 57xx said:

 

"Vanity project"? And there was me thinking that it all started with an F1  team created by some bloke called Bruce.

 

 

2 hours ago, Classsix T said:

F1 isn't making McLaren money, take it or leave it, indeed it is hemorraging cash from the bottom line of the group.

That may be true at present but as 57xx alluded to it was originally a race team and the supercars and engineering started as a sideshoot  
 

It’s difficult to compare the accounts in such organisations as they are ‘valued’ in a slightly in a different way. The supercars are purely about money while F1 is about advertising and brand which are currently suffering, but also passion, so investing and taking clients to a race might technically make a loss but the money is spent elsewhere in their financially separate businesses, probably with even more elusive tax liabilities  

If the teams were treated like ‘normal’ businesses they’d fall by the wayside much faster. 

[Classsix T]

Don't get me wrong Paul, and I hope 57xx (with whom I've had pleasant discourse over on the Gamer's Lounge) I'm not intending to be argumentative. But the days of one bloke knocking up a race winning motor in a shed are truly behind us. 

 

My initial point with Mike's post was that as soon as any enterprise opens itself to investors other than those that had the initial impetus, you open yourself to influences beyond your control. That's pure capitalist mathematics. 

McLaren (or Alfa Romeo, Jaguar or Auto Union ffs) can ride on a wave of nostalgia as much as they like, fact of the matter is, it's just a name. The here and now is what matters. Stakeholders and bottom line bean counters. 

 

C6T. 

[PaulRhB]

13 minutes ago, Classsix T said:

open yourself to influences beyond your control. That's pure capitalist mathematics. 

Oh I agree but I suspect there’s more to it than the simple accounts or the beancounters would be having kittens all the time with teams in the mid and lower field. Posting losses for the F1 division while other parts of the business are doing well but still supporting it suggest there’s a wider ‘advantage’ to it. 
 

17 minutes ago, Classsix T said:

I'm not intending to be argumentative.

Didn’t think you were, overall it’s an interesting debate and discussion and far more civilised than some product threads   I’m speculating from some knowledge I have of other businesses and their ‘write offs’. 

[Classsix T]

6 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Oh I agree but I suspect there’s more to it than the simple accounts or the beancounters would be having kittens all the time with teams in the mid and lower field. Posting losses for the F1 division while other parts of the business are doing well but still supporting it suggest there’s a wider ‘advantage’ to it. 

But then stories reporting the carving up of the historic collection (something McLaren have been vociferously protective of, but doesn't generate income) for what we're led to believe is desperately needed funds suggests otherwise? 

 

I always found it odd about McLaren btw, that it was commonly written into a driver's contract that McLaren takes possession of any trophy the driver wins. McLaren supply a replica of the trophy to the driver in return. Wtf is that all about?! If the replica is any good, stick that in yer cabinet!

 

C6T.