Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[APT Fan]

Apologies for hijacking the thread.

 

Back on subject, I've DCC fitted my APT now and I've used LaisDCC decoders mainly because I've used them before and know that they are nice and small. They are also cheap which is another consideration when having to buy three of them. I think they will be fine for the driving cars, we'll just have to see how we get on with the NDM. If the NDM decoder goes okay I think I'll leave it now rather than going for sound as I'm already into this model for quite a bit of cash. I expect the sound file is probably very similar to my 87 anyway and I'm finding that the APT is not a model I've been using daily purely from a practical point of view.

 

So on fitting the decoders, I found that I had to trim the heat shrink sleeving on all of them very slightly to ensure they fitted between the edge of the enclosure and the 8 pin socket at the centre - I wonder why they put it in centrally? I wanted to make sure that they were completely inside the enclosure so as not to make the cover bulge at all which seems very easy to do given the allowed space.

 

The NDM decoder is shown below and whilst it all looks okay, when I test the tilt by moving the bogies there is movement of both the wiring and the decoder inside the enclosure. I haven't tested it properly yet, it has only been on the test track but hopefully everything will be okay.

 

I think the Hunt couplings are a must for these models aren't they? I fitted them at the same time and they look and feel good so far. Are there any known issues of them becoming uncoupled accidently during operation?

Edited November 6, 2022 by APT Fan

[Pete the Elaner]

2 hours ago, APT Fan said:

 

I think the Hunt couplings are a must for these models aren't they? I fitted them at the same time and they look and feel good so far. Are there any known issues of them becoming uncoupled accidently during operation?

 

I've got 2 powered NDMs in my set, coupled with Hunts. They are certainly a lot easier to put together than the standard Hornby offering.

I usually slow the unit down by zeroing the speed then hitting F5 for brake. It seems only 1 of the decoders is set up to use this so I hear wheels spinning as it slows. I know this is not good & I will sort it next time I have a running session, but this is not very often. The important bit is that that nothing separates or derails.

[boxbrownie]

4 hours ago, APT Fan said:

 

Just a comment on that speaker - Does it not foul the PCB as it doesn't look like it is sitting flush within the designated cutout area in the chassis and seems to be sitting proud? Even if the picture is deceiving me, there are surface mounted components on the underside of the PCB which are also likely to foul it also.

 

My Loksound v5 micro came pre-wired with a Base enhanced speaker 23x13x6mm as recommended for the Hornby. I was advised to install the speaker on the underside of the PCB at the other end, however I found that it would also be fouled at that end by the underside of the 8 pin connector joints. Here's an explanation of my approach with illustrations:-

 

Firstly, these are the surface mounted components which 'intrude' into the 'space'.

 

So I fitted the speaker sideways and fixed it to the bottom of the chassis with double sided pads and then pinned it at the top with another couple of pads. Side fixing it would make it sit prouder and might risk it fouling the drive shaft. The fixings are strong and it isn't going anywhere!

 

You can see at the other end how the 8 pin socket joints would 'just' foul an under PCB speaker installation and won't quite fit between the pins and the drive shaft ball joint. Note the extention to the orange wire to ease access due to Hornby not making any allowances and fitting very short wires. 

 

So then we come to the actual decoder fitting and whilst the Loksound V5 micro is a nice neat and small decoder it is actually quite deep due to the use of quite a bulky connector for the ribbon cable. I couldn't find anywhere to place it on the top side of the PCB without it interfering with the roof and it felt like a very tight squeeze, so I didn't want to force it. So again using the trusty old double sided pads, this was fitted to the underside of the PCB at the 8 pin socket end.

 

Now, although I have great faith in double sided sicky pads and they usually provide very strong and durable fixings I am aware that occasionally gravity can get the better of them. I noted that this might mean if the decoder became unattached it may fall into the drive shaft. So I made a cowling out of plasticard to protect the shaft. This was measured to size and formed into a U shape, an interference fit, so just clips into place. The more observant of you will have spotted that it has actually been made out of an old Blueyonder TV smart card rather than actual Plasticard.  

It does lift the PCB slightly but the screw still holds the board securely, the SM components are flush enough to make little difference. The chip was fitted at the other end and the arcing chip on top of the board.

 

The body clips on as normal, but it is tight that’s for sure.

[JSpencer]

On 05/11/2022 at 22:59, letterspider said:

I was unhappy with my model as the whole set is let down by the power car. In the end I reluctantly returned the 11 car set I put together for a refund. Reading the forums there appears that there have been a few returned for similar reasons.

As it has to push and pull and tilt, all at the same time, the power car really has to work perfectly. I feel that Hornby have made compromises which they might now regret when sets are being returned. My hope is they will try to fix these issues on the next batch....

 

 

I opt for 2 full powered power cars once I get above 10 vehicles. A dummy + powered NDM won't cope. 

[letterspider]

Power wasn't the only issue, as it derailed with just 5 cars.

Points, inclines

[letterspider]

On 07/11/2022 at 17:56, JSpencer said:

 

I opt for 2 full powered power cars once I get above 10 vehicles. A dummy + powered NDM won't cope. 

Yes but the power car failed to cope even when it was running solo 

[JSpencer]

3 hours ago, letterspider said:

Yes but the power car failed to cope even when it was running solo 

 

Do the wheels turn on both ends? (wondering if both ends are driven) Because one will easily manage 8 with 10 acting as the limit.

[WestRail642fan]

quick question, what type of pantograph did my 7 car pack come with? Asking as the Hornby site are now listing the spares for the APT on the site and i want to swap the pantographs

[Hilux5972]

4 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

quick question, what type of pantograph did my 7 car pack come with? Asking as the Hornby site are now listing the spares for the APT on the site and i want to swap the pantographs

Match yours to the image. 

[letterspider]

Perhaps your track is laid perfectly but Hornby requiring this perfection is not realistic, not if they want to sell widely

[WestRail642fan]

16 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Match yours to the image. 

my one is the high speed one, but i prefer the early one, cheers

[Bloodnok]

12 hours ago, scumcat said:

My power car will happily cope with 10 coaches at scale speed🤔

On flat ground and without encountering a set-track style curve radius it may well cope with 10 coaches with a single power car.

I have an S curve (135 degrees followed by 225 degrees the other way) laid at 2nd and 3rd radius which is also up a 2.5% gradient. With a running start out of my fiddleyard, it got about 4 cars onto the gradient and then just sat there and spun. It could barely push half the train up the hill.

Compare this to any other AC Bo-Bo (Bachmann 85, Heljan 86, Hornby 87, Bachmann 90, all of which I have), and they will all pull or push a similar length train of lit coaches up the same gradient without difficulty.

I have not had the APT out of the box since. Disappointed is a massive understatement.

I am determined to see it work though. I will at some point work out what the correct kit of parts to get from Hornby Spares is so I can motorise the second NDM in the pack.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Bloodnok

[Pete the Elaner]

2 hours ago, Bloodnok said:

On flat ground and without encountering a set-track style curve radius it may well cope with 10 coaches with a single power car.

I have an S curve (135 degrees followed by 225 degrees the other way) laid at 2nd and 3rd radius which is also up a 2.5% gradient. With a running start out of my fiddleyard, it got about 4 cars onto the gradient and then just sat there and spun. It could barely push half the train up the hill.

Compare this to any other AC Bo-Bo (Bachmann 85, Heljan 86, Hornby 87, Bachmann 90, all of which I have), and they will all pull or push a similar length train of lit coaches up the same gradient without difficulty.

I have not had the APT out of the box since. Disappointed is a massive understatement.

I am determined to see it work though. I will at some point work out what the correct kit of parts to get from Hornby Spares is so I can motorise the second NDM in the pack.

 

I am sure Hornby's response would be that running a 10 coach train on such a layout is unusual.

I can understand a normal loco being heavier though. The clearance for the tilting parts causes the chassis to be smaller than for a non-tilting loco with a larger tumblehome.

[Bloodnok]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I am sure Hornby's response would be that running a 10 coach train on such a layout is unusual.

Fixed it for you.

They were indeed surprised that people would attempt to extend the black fronted 7 car pack at all -- Hornby clearly expected that to be used primarily as a display model / collectors piece. They instead expected people to only extend the yellow fronted set. The only issue with that is IRL the black front was ubiquitous pretty fast -- the full yellow front disappeared very early on.

 

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I can understand a normal loco being heavier though. The clearance for the tilting parts causes the chassis to be smaller than for a non-tilting loco with a larger tumblehome.

Yeah, figuring out where to add weight is certainly a challenge, hence why a second motored NDM is my most likely solution.

[andyman7]

18 hours ago, letterspider said:

Perhaps your track is laid perfectly but Hornby requiring this perfection is not realistic, not if they want to sell widely

 

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I am sure Hornby's response would be that running a 10 coach train on such a layout is unusual.

I can understand a normal loco being heavier though. The clearance for the tilting parts causes the chassis to be smaller than for a non-tilting loco with a larger tumblehome.

I think this is the key issue - the full 14 coach train is a behemoth (and a formation that ran on just a few occasions) and even 10 coaches practically joins at the ends on a 6 x 4 layout - the average set user is unlikely to get near that number.

Indeed the man drawback of Hornby's marketing is I think the use of 'paired' coach packs given that the half sets were rarely complete and utilised odd coaches from each set.

Edited November 28, 2022 by andyman7

[RedgateModels]

18 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:

They were indeed surprised that people would attempt to extend the black fronted 7 car pack at all -- Hornby clearly expected that to be used primarily as a display model / collectors piece. They instead expected people to only extend the yellow fronted set.

 

This struck me as odd at the outset. Just about anyone even in the 80's wanted the black fronted set - the plain yellow did not last that long in service and Hornby's first effort was only all yellow for the first year - even the 1981 full set was black fronted as well as the then newer train pack.

 

Three options would have been better - 5 car as built, 5 car black fronted and then maybe the "collector" 7 car set.

[Bloodnok]

4 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

I think this is the key issue - the full 14 coach train is a behemoth (and a formation that ran on just a few occasions) and even 10 coaches practically joins at the ends on a 6 x 4 layout - the average set user is unlikely to get near that number.

 

If Hornby were aiming everything at a 6' by 4' train set, there'd be no need for AWD locos, a pancake drive bogie would be fine. Or APT centre cars for that matter -- which is why there aren't any for the 1980s set.

 

4 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Indeed the man drawback of Hornby's marketing is I think the use of 'paired' coach packs given that the half sets were rarely complete and utilised odd coaches from each set.

 

Yep, and if you scroll back a few dozen pages you'll probably find me ranting about that too -- I needed one half of each of the four packs to make the prototypical train I wanted to run.

[andyman7]

12 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:

 

If Hornby were aiming everything at a 6' by 4' train set, there'd be no need for AWD locos, a pancake drive bogie would be fine. Or APT centre cars for that matter -- which is why there aren't any for the 1980s set.

 

Even for 'train set' layouts, modern mechanisms and all wheel pickup/drive provide for much better running. I remember as a youth how much prodding was involved to try and do realistic starts on a train set!

[Bloodnok]

1 minute ago, RedgateModels said:

 

This struck me as odd at the outset. Just about anyone even in the 80's wanted the black fronted set - the plain yellow did not last that long in service and Hornby's first effort was only all yellow for the first year - even the 1981 full set was black fronted as well as the then newer train pack.

 

Three options would have been better - 5 car as built, 5 car black fronted and then maybe the "collector" 7 car set.

Or at the very least, put two full power cars in the "collector" set. The requirement to make two variants of the NDMs probably added enough to costs to negate the saving of not fitting a motor and DCC socket.

[WestRail642fan]

in my case, my reasoning for wanting to get the second NDM powered is so i could run the APTs as the proposed APT-Q set, i just need a DAV4 which i plan to created by either cut and shutting the 1980s model, or by buying the new MK4 DVTs and repainting

an APT-Q set for those who don't know what im refering too :)

[RedgateModels]

Like this? 😉

 

[WestRail642fan]

1 minute ago, RedgateModels said:

Like this? 😉

 

Yes! Exactly like this. My main reason for wanting to do a cut and shut is so it can still tilt and going from what images some one posted a while ago, with a simple coupler swap, the 1980s and the 2020 model can be coupled

[RedgateModels]

Must get mine finished sometime, too busy doing alternative liveries at the moment 

 

 

[SForrest10]

I've just managed to get a ful APT set so started work on fitting DCC sound.

I was quite surprised that there is no right headlight fitted on the APT's light PCB.

 

Due to adding a 21pin decoder I have discarded the original PCB and made my own, I've also changed the lights to have left and right headlight.

The bar that holds the new LED in position also joins the negative of all LED's together allowing me to remove one of the original common positive wires.

I didn't have the correct colour temperature LED but a touch of yellow paint on the led surface got it close enough.

The original Right headlamp had to be disconnected from the marker lights by cutting the track with a knife. A wire could then be soldered to the led to allow it to be separately switched from the decoder.

 

 

The wiring was then installed into the generator bay of the DVT with the speaker and stay alive for the Loksound FX fitted under the floor.

The light bar had its capacitor removed and was wired to the 5 volts of the DCC decoder. This supply is connected to the stay alive capacitor for the chip. The light bar is slightly dimmer and looks much better.

 

 

Finally I added a bit of paint to the interior and people to add a bit more interest. Not completely accurate but much better than Hornby's attempt.

 

 

The Legomanbiffo sounds are great and highly recommended.

[RedgateModels]

Interesting. Looking at photos on the internet it seems that the "headlights" were a bit of a moveable feast. some show two lit, others only on the left or only on the right. This is on top of the two outside white marker lights.

 

Looks like either version could be said to be correct