Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[Phil Parker]

41 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

True, it would have to be at your own risk, but its pretty shocking to just sell them in the state they are and wipe their hands of it. Is that going to encourage repeat custom?

 

You have no idea of the many variables behind any decision relating to this. My understanding, and remember, I have talked to the designer, is that component shortages (remember the pandemic?) which affected so many industires using electronics, were an issue. When anyone designs a model, they can't just say it will be the best thing in the world and hang the cost or any problems. Perfection can be the enemy of good.

 

As for a Hornby supplied kit of bits for modellers to solder, that's a non-starter. Even if the components are now available, someone has to develop the kit, which presumably you expect to be provided for free. If not, and if the demand is there, where is the aftermarket product to solve the problem? Presumably, no one else feels there is a market.

 

Repeat sales - well if you want another APT, where else are you going to go? If you want a Peckett, are you going to say "There was something I didn't like with the APT, so I'm not going to buy a Peckett"? I doubt that very much.

[Legend]

10 hours ago, sandwich station said:

What's the difference between  the first run of 5 car sets R3873 and the latest run R30104 due in a few months?

 

 I think basically the last runs that had full yellow ends (5 car) and the black visor (7 car) are now the other way around ie the 5 car will now have the black visor and 7 car full yellow ends . Might be interested in the 5 car one . I used to see it regularly at Shields Rd Glasgow on my commute in in the early 80s .

[Bloodnok]

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

We live in a world where "modellers" can't put pre-made handrails into pre-drilled holes. Asking them to attack their APT with a soldering iron would be a recipe for disaster, or at least a vast number of warranty claims.

 

And yet the salesman I spoke to at New Modellers Shop said the Hornby spares for the APT have been consistent rapid sellers -- lots of people are obviously trying to motorise the dummy NDM in their 7 car set, and don't seem scared of doing it. That does require some quite precise soldering, attaching the pickup wires inside the bogies.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Bloodnok

[andyman7]

5 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:

 

And yet the salesman I spoke to at New Modellers Shop said the Hornby spares for the APT have been consistent rapid sellers -- lots of people are obviously trying to motorise the dummy NDM in their 7 car set, and don't seem scared of doing it. That does require some quite precise soldering, attaching the pickup wires inside the bogies.

'lots' is of course a relative term. It ight be a lot for the shop but not feasible at scale for Hornby

[Bloodnok]

17 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

'lots' is of course a relative term. It ight be a lot for the shop but not feasible at scale for Hornby

Naturally. The point though was that they were outselling all other Hornby spares by orders of magnitude.

[GordonC]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

You have no idea of the many variables behind any decision relating to this. My understanding, and remember, I have talked to the designer, is that component shortages (remember the pandemic?) which affected so many industires using electronics, were an issue. When anyone designs a model, they can't just say it will be the best thing in the world and hang the cost or any problems. Perfection can be the enemy of good.

 

As for a Hornby supplied kit of bits for modellers to solder, that's a non-starter. Even if the components are now available, someone has to develop the kit, which presumably you expect to be provided for free. If not, and if the demand is there, where is the aftermarket product to solve the problem? Presumably, no one else feels there is a market.

 

Repeat sales - well if you want another APT, where else are you going to go? If you want a Peckett, are you going to say "There was something I didn't like with the APT, so I'm not going to buy a Peckett"? I doubt that very much.

 

Well thats the final nail in the coffin for me ... I'm done with Hornby ...  whatever they produce, I'm not interested and I'll buy from other manufacturers.

[Phil Parker]

7 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

Well thats the final nail in the coffin for me ... I'm done with Hornby ...  whatever they produce, I'm not interested and I'll buy from other manufacturers.

 

Well, all the other manufacturers have the same set of considerations. All of them use different factories with different abilities. Part of being a designer is that you make the best of the resources available. This can include altering elements of your mechanism design to suit the factory.

 

Never mind. Good luck with your Non-Hornby APT set.

[letterspider]

It may well be that you won't need to go to Hornby soon in any case, since a well detailed 31, 50, 56, 60 will no longer be exclusive to them.

Which is ironic as those were pretty much the only models I would still consider buying from Hornby...

[GordonC]

16 minutes ago, letterspider said:

It may well be that you won't need to go to Hornby soon in any case, since a well detailed 31, 50, 56, 60 will no longer be exclusive to them.

Which is ironic as those were pretty much the only models I would still consider buying from Hornby...

 

They were nice models at the time along with the 67 and 87, but their prices have shot way beyond their quality so I'm in no rush and can quite happily pick up other models I like from other manufacturers. We're hardly starved of choice these days.

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

Well thats the final nail in the coffin for me ... I'm done with Hornby ...  whatever they produce, I'm not interested and I'll buy from other manufacturers.

 

46 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

They were nice models at the time along with the 67 and 87, but their prices have shot way beyond their quality so I'm in no rush and can quite happily pick up other models I like from other manufacturers. We're hardly starved of choice these days.

It's your choice of course, but really what is the point?  Hornby aren't an evil corporation, they are just trying their best in trying times for everyone.  If you think it is just Hornby having problems it's not, I think I lot of the QC issues with other manufacturers right now can be put down to decisions made around component availability and stop/start production due to lockdowns across China as it pursued zero Covid.

 

The only person who'll miss out on a model is yourself, just take each model on it's own merits rather than simply say you'll never buy x manufacturers models again.

[rob D2]

1 hour ago, letterspider said:

It may well be that you won't need to go to Hornby soon in any case, since a well detailed 31, 50, 56, 60 will no longer be exclusive to them.

Which is ironic as those were pretty much the only models I would still consider buying from Hornby...

I don't consider Hornby a serious contender in the DE market .

They don't seem to have any passion for it or they've spread themselves too thin 

[letterspider]

Perhaps Hornby needs to bow out gracefully from some areas of the model train market and focus on its other businesses.  If they manufacture these Bluetooth chips to very high volumes, and get them to market at the right price, I would buy 20 of them straight off. Its a great idea and would help break up the near monopoly of Zimo and ESU. 

Mind you, I am sure it would so be a challenge to fit into the APT

[letterspider]

My point - which I explain below, if a business can't match the levels of quality and design of the competitors, then price yourself accordingly.

 

Because from my recent experiences the issues with Hornby are related to their design. A chassis block where you can't fit in a sound decoder and speaker is very short sighted imo. Still using 8 pin decoder standards. Plastic pantographs which fall to pieces before you even open the box is a bad consumer experience on Christmas day. Bogies with insufficient play to cope with gradients. My feeling is they haven't had enough iterations in testing.

On the other hand I don't see any compromises at all in the Class 92 from Accurascale, except the pantograph head is fixed unlike the Bachmann model. The model does everything - even works on dirty track. Unfortunately you have a lemon but that is due to assembly or component issues, not issues with design.

Also there seems to be unwillingness to go back and correct fixable errors. Heljan did that with the Class 86 and they are now about to announce a 3rd production run. However I don't see any suggestion future APT trailers will have smaller capacitors.

 

These are facts, it's not about bashing Hornby. I have a lot of Hornby models I am happy with but I would no longer put in a pre-order for any future releases until I saw them reviewed on here or elsewhere.

 

 

 

[GordonC]

15 hours ago, woodenhead said:

 

It's your choice of course, but really what is the point?  Hornby aren't an evil corporation, they are just trying their best in trying times for everyone.  If you think it is just Hornby having problems it's not, I think I lot of the QC issues with other manufacturers right now can be put down to decisions made around component availability and stop/start production due to lockdowns across China as it pursued zero Covid.

 

The only person who'll miss out on a model is yourself, just take each model on it's own merits rather than simply say you'll never buy x manufacturers models again.

 

The point is I'm not wasting money on their junk, there's been far too many recent models I've bought from them where time and again there are just faults of one kind or another whether its light bleed through bodyshells, APT-related faults, poor colour matches. And its not like they're any cheaper than other manufacturers, far from it. So why should I continually line their pockets when they throw out products they dont seem to give a stuff about.

 

Me miss out???? I think you're mistaken 🤣🤣😂🤣🤣😂 my pre-order list would suggest otherwise! ☺️

[GordonC]

15 hours ago, rob D2 said:

I don't consider Hornby a serious contender in the DE market .

They don't seem to have any passion for it or they've spread themselves too thin 

 

I'm not sure Hornby will be a serious contender in 00 anymore, they seem to be jumping ship and going all into their new gauge where they dont have competitors

[rob D2]

3 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

I'm not sure Hornby will be a serious contender in 00 anymore, they seem to be jumping ship and going all into their new gauge where they dont have competitors

Possibly because of shareholder pressure - their existing range doesn’t provide much return 

[Phil Parker]

1 minute ago, rob D2 said:

Possibly because of shareholder pressure - their existing range doesn’t provide much return 

 

If you want to discuss TT, please take this to the appropriate section of the forum. We've been off-topic for a while on this thread, can it return to the APT please. 

[rob D2]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

If you want to discuss TT, please take this to the appropriate section of the forum. We've been off-topic for a while on this thread, can it return to the APT please. 

Sure 

[andyman7]

I originally didn't intend to buy the Hornby APT but when the coaches appeared I did succumb - I am of the age to have seen this on test throughout the early 80s as an impressionable teenager so let's just say it has a more personal impact for me than, say, Flying Scotsman. I then picked up the 5 car train pack and the additional power car from my regular retailer - both with money off the RRP. This was back when Hornby were scaling back dealer orders and prices had been increased so I was pleased to have effectively managed an impulse buy.

 

Of course the 5 car sets and coaches have subsequently been deep discounted (I guess giving lie to the original panic about both price and availability) but weirdly I have also ended up with what appears to be the single most desirable component of the whole set - the additional powered  power car. Had I been in possession of 'perfect' knowledge I could still have saved myself £200, but then again, if I had second sight I would be doing the lottery rather than chase Hornby bargain bin items 🙂

 

As for the model itself I do really like it, for operation it will only run as a shorter set with me picking and mixing from the coaches. Having seen it so many times back in the day I am fully aware that it operated in all sorts of odd formations, the prototypical information that has been shared has been wonderful but for me it is enough to provide the license to vary things around a bit. I'm just sharing this to perhaps provide a bit of perspective to illustrate that for me, despite any shortcomings it is still a positive experience - and talk of competitor offerings seems spurious with the APT-P, which it seems unlikely anyone else is going to tackle.

[RedgateModels]

Second test print of the aftermarket pan base has arrived. 

 

 

Not bad, some further tweaks and it will be ready 🚈🚈🚈🚈🚈

[RedgateModels]

Better in grey 😁

 

[rob D2]

On 10/03/2023 at 11:40, andyman7 said:

I originally didn't intend to buy the Hornby APT but when the coaches appeared I did succumb - I am of the age to have seen this on test throughout the early 80s as an impressionable teenager so let's just say it has a more personal impact for me than, say, Flying Scotsman. I then picked up the 5 car train pack and the additional power car from my regular retailer - both with money off the RRP. This was back when Hornby were scaling back dealer orders and prices had been increased so I was pleased to have effectively managed an impulse buy.

 

Of course the 5 car sets and coaches have subsequently been deep discounted (I guess giving lie to the original panic about both price and availability) but weirdly I have also ended up with what appears to be the single most desirable component of the whole set - the additional powered  power car. Had I been in possession of 'perfect' knowledge I could still have saved myself £200, but then again, if I had second sight I would be doing the lottery rather than chase Hornby bargain bin items 🙂

 

As for the model itself I do really like it, for operation it will only run as a shorter set with me picking and mixing from the coaches. Having seen it so many times back in the day I am fully aware that it operated in all sorts of odd formations, the prototypical information that has been shared has been wonderful but for me it is enough to provide the license to vary things around a bit. I'm just sharing this to perhaps provide a bit of perspective to illustrate that for me, despite any shortcomings it is still a positive experience - and talk of competitor offerings seems spurious with the APT-P, which it seems unlikely anyone else is going to tackle.

You’ve made it work for you. I never saw the real one , growing up near the GWML about the same time, but I did have the set in about 1981 as a Christmas present ( although it was way too big for the circle of track ), so I was tempted to get one for nostalgia of my yoof, rather than nostalgia of trains 

[25kV]

For anyone interested, I've added a new page to the APT Formations site which compares the various Hornby models available/proposed with reality (as it is currently understood!).  It's intended as a bit of fun, but may be helpful to those who want to make their model as authentic as possible.  The page is accessible from the main site menu, but here's a direct link:

http://www.25kv.uk/APT-models.php

 

[Pete the Elaner]

On 11/03/2023 at 16:15, RedgateModels said:

Better in grey 😁

 

 

The base looks good, but I feel that the worst part of the pan is its contact arms. It looks like an imitation of Hornby's original, which looked nothing like anything prototypical.

Apologies for the quality, but it is a scan of an old photo, but it shows what a Faiveley pan really looks like. I don't expect total accuracy but Hornby's effort is poor.

 

 

 

[PaulRhB]

11 hours ago, 25kV said:

For anyone interested, I've added a new page to the APT Formations site which compares the various Hornby models available/proposed with reality (as it is currently understood!).  It's intended as a bit of fun, but may be helpful to those who want to make their model as authentic as possible.  The page is accessible from the main site menu, but here's a direct link:

http://www.25kv.uk/APT-models.php

 

Ta for that it’s an interesting read. I’ll stick with the full mask set I upgraded to twin powered NDM’s though as I can’t see the numbers at linespeed but the info is a great resource.