New tooling - BR Standard 2MT 2-6-0 2MT 78xxx

[Johan DC]

21 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

The 2MT looks to be quite an ok model, if the biggest problem seems to be that the copper piping is copper coloured. 

I don't know the class, I don't think I ever saw a real one. But to me, it looks like it's easier to weather/paint it black than to paint it in copper. 

[pH]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

None of it would have lasted more than a day or two in traffic and even if the engine was cleaned properly by Cleaners who knew what they were doing the ex-works varnished paintwork would have looked different once the paraffin/oil mixture got onto it let alone any abrasion as cleaning removed any grit from the surfaces.

I once saw a rebuilt Patriot being cleaned inside Carlisle Upperby shed. They were not using paraffin/oil as you describe, but a soapy mixture applied with long brushes and hosed off. (IIRC, how coaches were cleaned manually.) I have no idea why it was being done - perhaps for a rail tour?

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Increasing people’s only memory of ‘working steam’ is the locos they see at Heritage railways - and on most of those railways having the working loco with their copper / pipe work polished is usually the norm so they will expect the same from models.

 

Fine - so long as all prospective purchasers intend to model a preserved railway.

 

In reality, the vast majority model the railway as it was when the locos and stock were in their original, revenue-earning condition.

 

This debate could become (has become?) tedious - the point that I wished to make is that, for many modellers, the over-embellished finish of the 2MT spoils, rather than enhances the model; nothing more.

 

CJI.

[Deeps]

Not wishing to add to the tedium, but polishing non-ferrous materials also adversely affects the mechanical properties of pipe work etc. Apart from progressively reducing the wall thickness of pipe work it also progressively work hardens the material, making it more susceptible to fatigue cracking. Not a problem on nameplates etc. but something to consider when cleaning pressure components.

 

As an engineer on submarines I successfully argued against polishing pipe work on steam systems and refrigerant plants for this very reason, which caused criticism when the Captain was due to conduct his regular inspections. I always won the day.

[Stanley Melrose]

Perhaps the attached image will help resolve what a Standard 2-6-0 2MT looked like?

 

Stan

 

PS not sure about copyright so please do nor reproduce - and I will remove it if asked to.

[Johan DC]

Out of interest, (don't have one, won't buy one) were those pipes painted, or not? Or did this depend from shed to shed? I saw a picture of a green 2mt, with pollished pipes, but I think it was a preserved one?

[Captain Kernow]

Perhaps the best way to represent copper pipes is to use real copper...

 

[Paul_sterling]

20 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Perhaps the best way to represent copper pipes is to use real copper...

 

 

Certainly how I approach it, using strands of copper from braided cabling. Looks effective and nominally to scale too.

 

Thanks

Paul. 

[phil-b259]

19 hours ago, Daddyman said:

An out-of-the-box model looks nothing like either a preserved loco or an ex-works or specially cleaned loco in steam days. Weathering a model to look ex-works or recently cleaned is an art in itself. Even to model a museum-standard loco would require careful attention to finishes. Out-of-the-box RTR models resemble nothing on earth.  

 

A valid observation because even the most well cleaned loco will have dirt around pipe work joints for example where it’s too difficult to access or too time consuming to do (I.e. you need to use a toothbrush).

 

However in model terms that’s fairly easy to achieve providing the model comes with a suitably shiny finish in the first place (with a ‘weather then wipe off’ technique traces of dirty in the ‘hard to clean’ areas.

 

Hence the point that it’s easier to start from an immaculate base that for someone to go round and apply suitable copper / brass paint to the model once they have bought it.

[phil-b259]

20 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Fine - so long as all prospective purchasers intend to model a preserved railway.

 

In reality, the vast majority model the railway as it was when the locos and stock were in their original, revenue-earning condition.

 

This debate could become (has become?) tedious - the point that I wished to make is that, for many modellers, the over-embellished finish of the 2MT spoils, rather than enhances the model; nothing more.

 

CJI.

Of course not everyone will model a Heritage railway - but the point still stands that once people’s direct connection to an era is broken then ‘authenticity’ has a tendency to alter with it. If the only connection people have with real working steam is clean and polished examples as time goes on that ‘image’ will tend to become the dominant one and even though there are obviously pictures / film of dirty locos during BR service they are not as impressive as visually seeing a real locomotive.

 

Consequently as time goes on I expect the perception as to how clean / polished locos were in BR days to gradually move towards the cleaner end of the spectrum as each generation passes.

 

As I have also observed it’s a lot easier to weather / dirty up a model loco than it is to paint all the various pipes to represent a cleaner / more polished example so in terms of maximising sales I would say going for the full on bling is the most sensible route for a manufacturer, who after all doesn’t care whether the loco is going to be stuck in a display cabinet straight out the box or weathered to hell for authenticity.

 

Finally I agree this debate could become tedious - but ultimately what you or I think is irrelevant in the grander scheme of things - manufacturers will make what they think will sell…..

[K Hatton]

Maybe Hornby should consider making late BR era models that are already rusting (anyone remember mazak rot?) with features like worn out bearings/bent buffer beams to represent any accidents/hard shunts (a1/3 ski slope?) worn out paintwork etc - then "the vast majority" might say they are true representations of what they remember...

All I want to know is when the next versions are likely to appear? (waiting on 78054 myself)

[Porcy Mane]

7 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Perhaps the best way to represent copper pipes is to use real copper...

 

"Evening all".

 

[Bernard Lamb]

I don't think that I have ever purchased a RTR loco, in the modern era, that has needed so much work to get it into a state that makes me happy to run it on my layout. The annoying part is that the basic appearance is very good, but is let down by the detai. . I note that I have received neither an apology nor a responce to my reaction to the sarcastic comment that came my way. Typical keyboard warrior. I will report back, still working on it.

Bernard

[Butler Henderson]

Bling is something Hornby like to the point that they have coloured some metal parts on Rocket in the wrong metal so its looked more bling.

[MikeParkin65]

11 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Bling is something Hornby like to the point that they have coloured some metal parts on Rocket in the wrong metal so its looked more bling.

Copper coloured injector pipework on the LMS Pacifics even when not all of the copper painted parts are made from copper on the prototype. 

[melmoth]

Didn't Bling used to compete with Bassett-Lowke? Or was that something to do with Steampunk?

[NBL]

This thread is hilarious and very sad at the same time.

 

We've got a very good model of a loco and folk are squabbling about the pipework decoration.  If you don't, either don't buy it or weather it down.

 

It's a model train, it's not going to ruin your life. Instead of making multiple posts moaning about it, do some modeling, instead of telling everyone you are a modeller.

[ColinB]

Thanks NBL, my thoughts exactly. I would like to know though if anyone has suffered derailment issues. A lot of the newer Hornby locos like the P2 and Turbomotive derail on my layout whereas a lot the older ones don't. Lets face it, if a lot of this pipework is separately fitted it stands a good chance of falling off if you run the model.

[Butler Henderson]

Good point - how fragile is this loco because some of Hornbys production over recent years is likely no longer to be intact simply by breathing on it while they have a habit of using too brittle plastic on parts too easily caught/handled.

[ColinB]

It is like the early West Country/Battle of Britains how many second hand ones do you see where the steam pipe or whatever it is that bends out under cab is missing. Peters Spares does the left hand side as a replacement but not the part that breaks, so obviously Hornby got through a lot of them. It sticks out too far so is the first thing to get swiped if the loco derails and falls over.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

Good point - how fragile is this loco because some of Hornbys production over recent years is likely no longer to be intact simply by breathing on it while they have a habit of using too brittle plastic on parts too easily caught/handled.

Ive found it handling ok.

 

The part to always be cautious of on Hornby models is the windshields on the sides of the footplate, an issue going back more than a decade.

 

 

 

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, NBL said:

This thread is hilarious and very sad at the same time.

 

We've got a very good model of a loco and folk are squabbling about the pipework decoration.  If you don't, either don't buy it or weather it down.

 

It's a model train, it's not going to ruin your life. Instead of making multiple posts moaning about it, do some modeling, instead of telling everyone you are a modeller.

100%, it would be good to see some results to counter the frequent caustic words from some “modellers” here.

Its worth considering, theres still some models made with moulded pipes on !

 

whilst moaning of pipe colour, lets not forget this is nothing new… in the 1980’s Hornby was printing white paint on moulded pipes on the black 9F… and copper paint on 92220.

 

Instead of celebrating how good we have it, some will always look for a negative to whinge about. Simply rubbing a pencil on the pipework will tone it down a shade, a marker pen tones down the wheel rims.. it takes less time to do than writing a moan post on here… after that the worlds your oyster as far as you want with weathering.

 

With the new 9f, 2MT I think its time for some to bury the hatchet on Hornby, the lamps on Turbomotive could be a lesson to learn on an otherwise also very good model… Even the new P2 isnt bad… (ok Hornby needs to up its game on modern image)..

 

Personally I dont think weve ever had it so good in the hobby, we dont need to Blue Peter a kit together anymore, the work is done for us, weathering is a personal preference anyway, no two people will ever agree to the same finished effects, so there is no right or wrong answer, only your own interpretation of it.

 

I think some posters are a little over sensitive, or maybe need a little live and let live.. failing that give em a hug and a kiss.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by adb968008

[ikks]

On 18/10/2023 at 03:40, Stanley Melrose said:

Perhaps the attached image will help resolve what a Standard 2-6-0 2MT looked like?

 

Stan

 

PS not sure about copyright so please do nor reproduce - and I will remove it if asked to.

That is exactly how I remember a what we spotters would call a "clean" loco of this and other locos of similar classes, don't recall too much polished brass or copper except perhaps on the Western.

Rgds...Mike

[Wheatley]

I'm not sure it's moaning (certainly isn't on my part), more curiosity as to why they did it. The gold plating on the anniversary Mallard (or whatever it was) made sense but someone's gone to a lot of trouble here to add something normally missed off (full marks) but turned it into something of a caricature. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Wheatley

[MikeParkin65]

8 hours ago, Wheatley said:

I'm not sure it's moaning (certainly isn't on my part), more curiosity as to why they did it. The gold plating on the anniversary Mallard (or whatever it was) made sense but someone's gone to a lot of trouble here to add something normally missed off (full marks) but turned it into something of a caricature. 

'Moaning' is being used pejoratively in this thread by some participants. Nothing wrong with having a view on how a model is finished and expressing that - no one is treating it as a matter of life and death. Suggest those who dont like a post or its content just scroll on by, as I do day in day out. It isnt difficult.