Failures...

[Phil Bullock]

The frame cracks issue only go to show how well steam technology was/is understood- the limits to which something could be pushed even when a fault was known to exist were generally well known, especially as steam loco engineering is pretty robust. This would all have changed with the introduction of diesels - minimal experience with the expensive new technology would inevitably lead to a high failure rate until new tricks of the trade were learnt.

[Oldddudders]

45 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

The frame cracks issue only go to show how well steam technology was/is understood- the limits to which something could be pushed even when a fault was known to exist were generally well known, especially as steam loco engineering is pretty robust. This would all have changed with the introduction of diesels - minimal experience with the expensive new technology would inevitably lead to a high failure rate until new tricks of the trade were learnt.

When engineering turns a corner, as in steam to diesel, or semaphore to colour light to electronic, it isn't always easy for existing loyal staff to get their head around new methods and kit, despite training being given. Add in the iffy manufacture of some of the Pilot Scheme machines, and reliability was always going to be dubious. 

[St Enodoc]

6 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

When engineering turns a corner, as in steam to diesel, or semaphore to colour light to electronic, it isn't always easy for existing loyal staff to get their head around new methods and kit, despite training being given. Add in the iffy manufacture of some of the Pilot Scheme machines, and reliability was always going to be dubious. 

Trying to maintain diesels in steam sheds wasn't going to lead to great results either.

[LMS2968]

Depends how you define properly. Drilling the end of the crack and then grooving out and welding along its length can be effective and is what you'd try first. Just don't be surprised if the crack, or an adjacent crack, returns in a few years.

[The Stationmaster]

On 02/02/2020 at 01:11, The Johnster said:

A HST with one power car was reckoned to be capable of 90mph, and thus able to equal the loco hauled timings on the WR when they were introduced.  My opinion, not backed by any published fact that I'm aware of, is that the refurbishment and engine replacement of the noughties took the edge off them a bit, and I doubt if the 90mph one power car performance could be equalled in recent years.

Official performance figures I was quoted many years ago said 116mph maximum achievable on one engine assuming nothing worse than level track and time to get up speed  - quite a lot of time   But over a generally rising road, even on with occasional falling gradients, there would be a considerable loss of accelerative power and an inevitable, and cumulative, loss of time in running.  HSTs on one engine could often manage Reading to Paddington within the gross booked time but that included several minutes gash for Recovery time etc.  Coming the other way  they inevitably couldn't maintain booked running times.

 

The first 20 mile out of St Pancras is basically climbing with the only decent down gradient being dow the dip to Radlett but then it's climbing again up to StAlbans before the undulating stretch to Leagrave then falling to Bedford before the steep climb up to Sharnbrook followed by a similar pattern with two more climbs and three descents before getting to Trent then a final, gentler, climb to Derby.  Even without looking at the speed profile an HST running on engine is going to be very hard put to get anywhere near keeping to time on a road like that  and is going to drop time hand over fist on the rising gradients

[The Johnster]

All the main lines out of London involve climbing, some for considerable distance, except the GW and LSW which follow the Thames Valley, and arguably the L,C,&D and L,T,&S which follow it in the other direction; it is debatable that the L,T.&S constitutes a 'main line', but I don't particularly want to get bogged down in the semantics...

 

The Geology of South East England provides a syncline, a downward fold in the strata of sedimentary rocks which is actually the outer fringe of the crumple zone caused by the collision of the African and European tectonic plates about 60mya and still in process; nearer the impact point it created the Alps.  As one of the sedimentary strata is the Chalk, which is resistant to water erosion because it is porous, the capital lies between 2 areas of chalk uplands, the North Downs and the Chilterns.  Thus any railway connecting London to destinations north or south of these chalk uplands must climb over them at some point, and those that do fearture fairly serious civil engineering in attempts to lower the height of the summits and lessen the gradients.  Tring cutting, and the Hadley Wood and Mertsham tunnels are examples of this.

 

The GW is considered one of Brunel's triumphs because of the easy gradients out to Swindon, but nature was kind to Ismbard in giving him a broad river valley out as far as Didcot which connected seamlessly with the Vale of White Horse, but even he had to dig the Sonning Cutting to achieve a direct route between Maidenhead and Reading to cut out the loop of the river through hilly chalk country though Marlow and Henley.  The river's meanders provided their own civil engineering challenges of course, with a major viaduct at Hanwell and a good number of bridges, Maidenhead being the most famous, but the gradient is kept very shallow and constant, which eases the running of the trains. IIRC it's something like 1 in 3,000 out to Wootton Bassett.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

All the main lines out of London involve climbing, some for considerable distance, except the GW and LSW which follow the Thames Valley, and arguably the L,C,&D and L,T,&S which follow it in the other direction; it is debatable that the L,T.&S constitutes a 'main line', but I don't particularly want to get bogged down in the semantics...

 

The Geology of South East England provides a syncline, a downward fold in the strata of sedimentary rocks which is actually the outer fringe of the crumple zone caused by the collision of the African and European tectonic plates about 60mya and still in process; nearer the impact point it created the Alps.  As one of the sedimentary strata is the Chalk, which is resistant to water erosion because it is porous, the capital lies between 2 areas of chalk uplands, the North Downs and the Chilterns.  Thus any railway connecting London to destinations north or south of these chalk uplands must climb over them at some point, and those that do fearture fairly serious civil engineering in attempts to lower the height of the summits and lessen the gradients.  Tring cutting, and the Hadley Wood and Mertsham tunnels are examples of this.

 

The GW is considered one of Brunel's triumphs because of the easy gradients out to Swindon, but nature was kind to Ismbard in giving him a broad river valley out as far as Didcot which connected seamlessly with the Vale of White Horse, but even he had to dig the Sonning Cutting to achieve a direct route between Maidenhead and Reading to cut out the loop of the river through hilly chalk country though Marlow and Henley.  The river's meanders provided their own civil engineering challenges of course, with a major viaduct at Hanwell and a good number of bridges, Maidenhead being the most famous, but the gradient is kept very shallow and constant, which eases the running of the trains. IIRC it's something like 1 in 3,000 out to Wootton Bassett.

 

 

 

The gradient out to Reading varies between 1 in 1100 and 1 in 1300 rising until Twyford West where it steepens (!!) to 1 in 892 until it reaches the summit in Sonning Cutting just past Woodley Bridge and it then falls, at a maximum of 1 In 762 towards the short level stretch through Reading.  It then climbs again, with an intermediate level stretch, at between 1 in 1300 and 1 in 1500 as far as Didcot where it steepens to 1in 754 and then varies between that and 1 in 800 odd all the way to Swindon except for a very short steeper stretch.  Swindon is the summit and apart from a climb of 1 n 860 from west of the bottom of Dauntsey Bank to Corsham everything is either level or on a falling gradient  (for Down trains) west of Swindon with an initial short drop west of Swindon station followed by a level stretch at Hay Lane and then falling at 1 in 660 for the next 5+miles to Wootton Bassett.

 

Up trains face two stiff climbs with getting on for 2 miles of 1 in100 between Box and the east end of Box Tunnel and over a mile of the steepest part of Dauntsey Bank also rising at 1 in 100

 

Mind you deep ballasting over the years has proobably altered the gradients a bit!.  

[The Pilotman]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Official performance figures I was quoted many years ago said 116mph maximum achievable on one engine assuming nothing worse than level track and time to get up speed  - quite a lot of time   But over a generally rising road, even on with occasional falling gradients, there would be a considerable loss of accelerative power and an inevitable, and cumulative, loss of time in running. 

Do Control still send out a message if an HST is OEO (one engine only)? I remember this information could be very useful if you had a freight train about with a tight margin to the next loop. Oh, just remembered; there are hardly any HSTs running around these days 

[caradoc]

No longer applicable of course but an Up HST with one PC out would not stop at Inverkeithing, due to the gradient up to the Forth Bridge. There were also restrictions on departing Inverness and Aberdeen on one PC. NB These restrictions do not apply to Scotrail's short HSTs !

 

[number6]

Lots of loco fault books here. You can lose yourself in these - especially 47s... 

http://www.locodocs.co.uk/

 

I love reading between the lines and also seeing the fitter replies.

"Window wiper No.2 end drivers side wants to be made workable."

http://www.locodocs.co.uk/repairbooks/47015.htm

[number6]

Sorry: forgot this gem.

47 121 13.1.1981 Canton

Driver: Both cabs very cold.

Fitter reply: Masking tape applied.

 

And onboard 55 017 "not fit for polar bears..."

Edited February 3, 2020 by number6
forgot image

[45125]

On 02/02/2020 at 01:11, The Johnster said:

A HST with one power car was reckoned to be capable of 90mph, and thus able to equal the loco hauled timings on the WR when they were introduced.  My opinion, not backed by any published fact that I'm aware of, is that the refurbishment and engine replacement of the noughties took the edge off them a bit, and I doubt if the 90mph one power car performance could be equalled in recent years.

121 is the fastest I have seen on a HST on one power car and 2+9 se to boot, regular performance in the high 110s have been seen on the ECML on reengineered power cars on the flat of the ECML. A reengineered car has slightly more HP for traction as the cooler group is not sucking as much power up.

On the Valenta power cars on XC (2+7) with only one engine you would lucky to get to 110 a Northallerton from leaving York, one I rode only just managed 90 going into a headwind.

 

[pH]

38 minutes ago, number6 said:

Sorry: forgot this gem.

47 121 13.1.1981 Canton

Driver: Both cabs very cold.

Fitter reply: Masking tape applied.

 

And onboard 55 017 "not fit for polar bears..."

 

I've read that Southern Pacific diesels could have very draughty cab windows (the railroad did not have a great reputation for maintenance). The 'on the road' remedy, in appropriate areas, was to soak paper towels in water, and jam them into the gaps round the windows so that they froze solid.

[Phil Bullock]

44 minutes ago, number6 said:

Sorry: forgot this gem.

47 121 13.1.1981 Canton

Driver: Both cabs very cold.

Fitter reply: Masking tape applied.

 

And onboard 55 017 "not fit for polar bears..."

 

What on earth was 55017 doing with a Wick crew? Or were the polar bears on strike?

[Rugd1022]

4 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

What on earth was 55017 doing with a Wick crew? Or were the polar bears on strike?

 

Looking at the date in the fault book it may have been a railtour Phil... 

 

Talk of the gradients up thread has just made me realise that my three most recent (and by far most catastrophic) failures all happened while I was on full power climbing up relatively stiff grades! I enjoy working on the Midland partly because of the gradients SM Mike refers too, heading north from London on the Down Slow you can take advantage of the dip at Radlett and if you get two yellows after crossing over the M25 heading up the hill to 'Stall Burns' you just shut off and don't need to touch the brake unless the expected red just south of the station is still on. Nine times out of ten this is the usual fare for us freight chaps when following the stopper which goes into the turn round spur just north of the platforms, of course this being the case you then have to give it the beans to get going again once the unit chummie is tucked away inside, digging in for the up and down Alpine stretch to Harpenden. There's a brief respite through the twisty bit approaching Chiltern Green (the smoothest stretch of mainline on my route card bar none) before having to dig in again for the climb through Luton up to the summit just beyond Leagrave, shutting off there and maybe only giving it a notch or two at Flitwick before the inevitable two yellows for Bedford South Jcn.

[dale159]

Found this on Flickr earlier.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/afc45014/49411396623/in/photolist-2ihjjKr-2ihmCZM-PFt7tv-2ieHBXh-2i9BjuF-2hQ1rT1-2hPSx8u-2hPFTjH-2hPApDo-2hPstXi-2hPgwRB-2hFRkX8-2hvSDid-2ifamVc-2i2mf1c-2i1iF8w-2hZ9sMi-2hNFGS6-2hG1kyW-2hoEdhX-2ho6igW-2hmZioU-2hfJM3J-2hePMRH-2h3RSia-2gukGom-2gRhXgo-2gP59uN-2gzAiQk-2gud41z-2gfunhS-2gcr5dv-2fV62um-THAfwG-2etmqxw-2epM7ML-24U5S8F-2eox7Ud-24KNnRv-24Jbsz6-T9dAfw-24yxQ8K-2dLfRCv-Symf8L-243qLcH-2ex2Bx8-2dnu1dh-ScwEYy-2cMe8mE-MhPnER

 

I correctly identified which was the failure and which was the rescuer before reading the caption!

 

Dale

 

Edit - Fitters attention to RMWeb for quadruple post, I've tidied up after myself now

Edited February 3, 2020 by dale159

[johnb]

This is proving to be a most entertaining thread. Please keep them coming!!!!!

[The Johnster]

Canton in the 70s.

 

’loco not responding correctly to throttle’; ‘loco taught correct manners and has promised to respond correctly in future’. 

 

’No.2 cab will not heat up’; ‘Secondman’s window closed for you’.  
 

‘No power until throttle set to no.4 setting’; ‘Power corrupts, but absolute power is even more fun’. 
 

 

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

'Stall Burns'

Is that anywhere near Snorb'ns?

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Canton in the 70s.

 

’loco not responding correctly to throttle’; ‘loco taught correct manners and has promised to respond correctly in future’. 

 

’No.2 cab will not heat up’; ‘Secondman’s window closed for you’.  
 

‘No power until throttle set to no.4 setting’; ‘Power corrupts, but absolute power is even more fun’. 
 

 

If that was the late 70s I think I know who might have written those replies...

 

(for the avoidance of doubt, it was not I).

Edited February 4, 2020 by St Enodoc

[Brian The Signal Engineer]

In the early seventies I worked for the Plant and Machinary Department at Edge Hill, Liverpool.

I assisted in the recommissioning of the turntable by the signal box.

The reason for this was that when a London bound train received a broken front windscreen from vandals in the London area, the London loco fitters would not change the windscreen but sent it back to Liverpool with the screen trailing. The Liverpool fitters than had to change it. The cost bourn by the Liverpool area, despite the breakage being in London.

In those days there was no push-pull in existence so electric locos (AL1 to 7's) were released from their train when the stock was taken on by another loco.

Liverpool turned the locos and sent them back with the broken screen trailing.

Somewhat petty I know but the London fitters soon got the message!

[The Johnster]

Great Uncle Ted, becoming a more frequent mention on this site and an inveterate teller of tall tales, claimed that when he was in the trenches on the Western Front, towards the end of the War it was known that the Germans were short of food (and pretty much everything else as 4 years of naval blockade and the entry of the yanks overwhelmed them).  So, as a morale destroyer, an empty shell casing was fired over to their side with a photo of Tommies tucking in to a 3 course roast dinner, washed down with beer.  

 

The Germans, fair play to 'em, replied with an empty shell containing a photo of a pile of washing up...

 

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

If that was the late 70s I think I know who might have written those replies...

 

(for the avoidance of doubt, it was not I).

If the guilty party was a running shed electrician who could often be found propping up the bar of the Craddock Hotel, I think you might be right...

 

'Loco behaves badly on left hand curves'; 'loco given a severe talking to about bad behaviour, told to straighten up and fly right'.

 

'Nut holding throttle handle faulty'; 'This book for reporting loco faults; nut holding throttle handle advised to book appointment with psychiatrist', this latter almost leading to a barroom brawl between the parties concerned.

 

To be fair to him, stupid questions deserve stupid answers!

Edited February 4, 2020 by The Johnster

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

If the guilty party was a running shed electrician who could often be found propping up the bar of the Craddock Hotel, I think you might be right...

No, I had someone else in mind.

[The Stationmaster]

Looking through one of my old note books from South Wales days when I did a big investigation into DMU faults and maintenance here's more for  'Repair Book bingo'

 

'Deferred waiting materials'

 

'One Engine Isolated waiting material'

 

In the case of engines isolated waiting material they were undoubtedly genuine answers - for example on 18 December 1971 Canton only had 1 spare Leyland engine against a scheduled stock of 4,  2 AEC A220 engines against a stock level of 4, only 4 gearboxes against a scheduled stock level of 6, and only 13 starter motors against a supposed stock level of 34. (they must really have got through starter motors there!!).  On the same date they had four DMU cars booked UVS (Urgent Vehicle Standing  waiting supply of spare parts)  waiting 1 x speedo generator, 1 x freewheel shaft, and 2 x battery switches.

 

Faults in traffic on Cardiff units at that time were a major problem - which was why I was given a project to look into it.  That resulted in me lifting some rather uncomfortable stones for some people

 

So there were sometimes genuinely two sides to a Repair Book story

[Davexoc]

I failed the 50 that had brought the up Riviera sleeper once. It arrived in the running shed at OC around 9am. and the first thing I noticed was the heat radiating off it while walking alongside. Looking at the condition of the brake blocks revealed they were quite well worn, but also all 12 tyres showed signs of shifting on the tyres. Turned out the straight air brake valve in what was the trailing cab from Penzance was a little sticky, and so the brakes weren't fully releasing.....