HS2

[melmerby]

22 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

James Dyson asked the same question. Not just for his Dyson cyclonic vacuum cleaners, but for all the other high-tech projects his business is involved in. The HQ in Malmesbury is now just for design and prototyping work, production is offshore.

Malmesbury is just a sub office, the HQ is in Singapore.

[jamie92208]

Yes,As fa's as know, the Euston TBM's wilstart from OOC where all the spoil disposal and material delivery Infrastructure is in place that will service all good 4 TBM's that start from there. Then the TBM's will be dismantled at Euston. IIRC the Euston tunnels will be smaller than the West Ruislip ones as the speeds will be lower. 

 

Jamie

[Ron Ron Ron]

The Euston tunnels will have to be started before the OOC HS2 station box can be completed and fitted out, as the 2 TBM's will launch from there.

I can't remember offhand, but I've got a feeling they'll be lowered in sections via the Victoria Road box, to the west of the OOC station and assembled within that total OOC workspace, before launching eastwards from the OOC station box.

 

They can't start the tunnelling towards Euston after the station construction work has passed a certain point, meaning OOC can't be completed, never mind opened, unless the tunnelling has started.

Also, work is about to start to bore a logistics tunnel, between OOC and the Atlas Road logistics site, near Willesden.

The TBM being used is being readied for action.

This logistic tunnel is essential for delivering tunnel segments and other materials into the Euston rail tunnels, during construction, as well as being the route through which the excavated spoil will be removed.

It also has to be completed before the HS2 station work can progress.

 

The government are now faced with a dilemma in its attempts to slow down or pause some aspects of the tunnelling.

There are several chicken and egg scenarios, where a pause or slow down will have a knock on effect that could paralyse the project or cause massive cost inflation.

If they proceed with tunnelling and then bring it to a pause, the cost to restart could will be huge.

 

 

.

[jamie92208]

That's what I referred to earlier about just what the contract for section 1 covers. I suspect that it will include the Euston tunnels,track, OHLEI and signalling and probably includes the tracks etc in the station itself. If the Government try to slow that contracted work down the contractors will take them the cleaners, just like the Aircraft Carrier Alliance were going to if HMS Prince of Wales was paused.  That would leave a working railway as far as Euston.  We can only wait and see. 

 

Jamie

[Mark Saunders]

A government that makes the right noises to appease the naysayers and gain a few votes without thinking beyond the next election and if they loose it’s all someone else’s fault or problem!

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Yes,As fa's as know, the Euston TBM's wilstart from OOC where all the spoil disposal and material delivery Infrastructure is in place that will service all good 4 TBM's that start from there. Then the TBM's will be dismantled at Euston. IIRC the Euston tunnels will be smaller than the West Ruislip ones as the speeds will be lower. 

 

Jamie

How exactly will the OOC station be welcoming trains when it is needed as part of building on to Euston?

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

How exactly will the OOC station be welcoming trains when it is needed as part of building on to Euston?

Read my post just above.

 

Once the TBMs have set off, from OOC towards Euston and the new tunnels are built past the point, where they connect with the Atlas logistics tunnel, then there’ll be no need for access from the.OOC Station box end.

All access will be via the logistics tunnel.

Construction of the HS2 station can then progress towards completion.

 

 

 

.

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

How exactly will the OOC station be welcoming trains when it is needed as part of building on to Euston?

The HS2 train that appears to be standing at platform 1 is the tunnel monster to Euston, please stand well back from the platform edge and do not attempt to board this train.

[Northmoor]

10 hours ago, woodenhead said:

The HS2 train that appears to be standing at platform 1 is the tunnel monster to Euston, please stand well back from the platform edge and do not attempt to board this train.

"The train at platform is for London Euston only, arriving in approximately four years time.  Passengers should be aware that there is very limited seating and toilet facilities are not available on this train".

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

"The train at platform is for London Euston only, arriving in approximately four years time.  Passengers should be aware that there is very limited seating and toilet facilities are not available on this train".

There is a catering conveyor service available on this service

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Read my post just above.

 

Once the TBMs have set off, from OOC towards Euston and the new tunnels are built past the point, where they connect with the Atlas logistics tunnel, then there’ll be no need for access from the.OOC Station box end.

All access will be via the logistics tunnel.

Construction of the HS2 station can then progress towards completion.

 

 

 

.

But until the logistics tunnel is operational any spoil out and tunnel segments in will surely only be possible via the OOC station box?   So that cannot be completed and fully fitted until teh tunnelling to Euston is beyond the point where the logistics tunnel is fully operational.   so there is a major potential time constraint on the fitting, and therefore opening, of the OOC station.  However judging by the snail like progress with much of the work further I doubt if that will be a constraint on anything. 

[lmsforever]

I am begining to wonder if Euston will actually happen  considering how the project is under so much censure ,who knows if the cuts will have to continue beyond when the construction work in London is set to commence. With all the demands on money being made HS2 is a ready made project to be further cut back and many people will be pleased to see it happen I can see billions going into the NHS which is a vote winner. So we can look forward to ongoning   cut backs and high speed beyond Birmingham  forget it.

[Ron Ron Ron]

23 hours ago, lmsforever said:

I am begining to wonder if Euston will actually happen  considering how the project is under so much censure ,who knows if the cuts will have to continue beyond when the construction work in London is set to commence. With all the demands on money being made HS2 is a ready made project to be further cut back and many people will be pleased to see it happen I can see billions going into the NHS which is a vote winner. So we can look forward to ongoning   cut backs and high speed beyond Birmingham  forget it.

The problem is, they’ve pushed back the completion and opening dates for various phases of HS2, several times over the last few years.

The phase 2 and new Euston opening dates have been pushed back beyond the next 3 election cycles (assuming 5 years between each GE), so it’s all too easy to now put off the spending in the short term and divert scarce financial resources to other things.

A new government administration, taking control in 2024, can easily sideline HS2 spending with promises of jam tomorrow, taking the view that opening dates beyond 2040 won’t need investment until the 2030’s, in the next election cycle, or the one after that.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, lmsforever said:

I am begining to wonder if Euston will actually happen  considering how the project is under so much censure ,who knows if the cuts will have to continue beyond when the construction work in London is set to commence. With all the demands on money being made HS2 is a ready made project to be further cut back and many people will be pleased to see it happen I can see billions going into the NHS which is a vote winner. So we can look forward to ongoning   cut backs and high speed beyond Birmingham  forget it.

NHS is going to be sold to US companies. Its just a matter of when. Probably linked to that trade deal.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

NHS is going to be sold to US companies. Its just a matter of when. Probably linked to that trade deal.

 

 

Judging by the performance of a  British company currently involved in a 'post-officing' capacity on behalf of the NHS (not that I can understand why they are needed anyway?) the sooner their role is sold off to an Inuit settlement the more likely things are to improve because they couldn't be any worse (probably).

 

Coming back to the spending situation the big problem with our idiot politicians is their inability, aided and abetted by Treasury bureaucrats, to distinguish investment from spending.  Govt is not spending money on HS2 it is borrowing money to build it and the only call on the tax payer for the time being is to pay the interest on that borrowed money.  It could of course be spent on investment elsewhere such as new hospitals or schools or new equipment for such places.  

 

Or it might not be borrowed at all which reduces public sector borrowing and saves money on interest payments - but that is all it will save and it  definitely won't save the taxpayer the cost of of even a bulk load of concrete if it isn't borrowed.  (Not that the average dimwit voter seems to realise that any more than the average politico).  I think it's a more than reasonable bet that if the money isn't borrowed to invest in HS2 it is unlikely to be borrowed to invest in anything else because other money is already being borrowed to invest in whatever the 'something else' might be.

[lmsforever]

All in all the future looks bleak  for the UK new infrastructure will be very limited due to demands for cash from politically more acceptable organizations  such as NHS ,education ,and others . This will cause problems in perhaps forty years when this country  will need major works to enable movement  and growth due to rising population and other factors. Overall we will have problems but who knows its a long way ahead and with our politicians who knows what will happen.

[Dunsignalling]

40 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

All in all the future looks bleak  for the UK new infrastructure will be very limited due to demands for cash from politically more acceptable organizations  such as NHS ,education ,and others . This will cause problems in perhaps forty years when this country  will need major works to enable movement  and growth due to rising population and other factors. Overall we will have problems but who knows its a long way ahead and with our politicians who knows what will happen.

My guess is that, with ever-improving IT, the influence of AI, and the drive toward net-zero, any need for most people to travel about for business purposes is more likely to diminish over the next few decades.

 

By then, heavy expenditure on the "legacy" rail network will have become imperative. The Victorian inheritance will not last forever, and it looks like HS2 won't be long enough for the speed it offers to be relevant for half-a-century yet.

 

In a country as small as ours, far greater and quicker economic benefits per £m spent could be derived from widening electrification and upgrading most of the existing system for line-speeds of 100 or 125mph, rather than further investing in true "high speed". 

John

Edited April 3, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[woodenhead]

Perhaps the Government knows more than it is letting on.

 

By 2040 Scotland will have gained independence as will the North of England, so Birmingham will be a border city with people needing passports to travel onwards.  Makes complete sense to stop HS2 at Birmingham just as HS1 does not go farther than London.

 

The North as Northern England will be known will offer a new service using the Shropshire Canal to allow passengers to get further north, as it will be all we can afford to borrow.

[62613]

8 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Perhaps the Government knows more than it is letting on.

 

By 2040 Scotland will have gained independence as will the North of England, so Birmingham will be a border city with people needing passports to travel onwards.  Makes complete sense to stop HS2 at Birmingham just as HS1 does not go farther than London.

 

The North as Northern England will be known will offer a new service using the Shropshire Canal to allow passengers to get further north, as it will be all we can afford to borrow.

HS2 Phase 1 is finishing in a field somewhere between Lichfield and Stafford. Birmingham is on a branch.

[woodenhead]

11 minutes ago, 62613 said:

HS2 Phase 1 is finishing in a field somewhere between Lichfield and Stafford. Birmingham is on a branch.

But the rest is correct 🤣🤣

[phil-b259]

23 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

My guess is that, with ever-improving IT, the influence of AI, and the drive toward net-zero, any need for most people to travel about for business purposes is more likely to diminish over the next few decades.

 

People don't only travel for business!

 

Indeed, the stats show that on a national level, trips made for leisure have rebounded more quickly than ones for business - and thats in spite of industrial disputes. With those disputes now over their is opportunities for further growth in the leisure market - particularly if the Government stopped obsessing with cuts and realised that to grow any business you have to spend money on it first and promotions like discounted fares (as was done last year) would do wonders to help

 

Furthermore science is continuing to shed light on just how much interactions between people are driven by hidden things - as much as humans might like to pretend otherwise attributes like smell and body language / posture make a huge difference to happiness and productivity.  In short human beings are genetically wired to actually want real person - person interactions!

 

As such predictions of doom and gloom - plus that electronic gizmos will mean we can spends the rest our lives living in a small box in glorious isolation are not going to come to pass.

 

31 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

In a country as small as ours, far greater and quicker economic benefits per £m spent could be derived from widening electrification and upgrading most of the existing system for line-speeds of 100 or 125mph, rather than further investing in true "high speed".

 

 

Groan.... how many times do we have to say it - THE JUSTIFICATION FOR HS2 IS NOT SPEED - ITS CAPACITY!

 

Just because some politicians got over excited and wanted to play at having bigger balls than other nations does not mean HS2 is redundant as a concept! Yes rail usage did plummet during the pandemic but if you take a long term view, what with climate change etc then rail should be being pushed and there will come a time when the WCML becomes full up once again!

 

As has been explained at some depth many times, expansion of the existing WCML would be horrendously disruptive and affect hundreds of thousands more people as you expand existing railway boundaries through urban areas.

 

Even if it was being built as a 125mph railway the route chosen wouldn't vary that much - even on a 'conventional' railway, making it as straight as possible and building it through areas with a low population are still sound. The main savings would come from things like smaller tunnel diameters and the types of railway equipment chosen to use on the route.

 

Yes upgrading and electrification of current routes is needed - but that is NOT a viable alternative to the core problem HS2 is being built to solve and should be pursed in tandem with HS2 - not instead of it!

 

[lmsforever]

You make some very valid points but we live in a society that has access to a media that basically stirs up opinions against projects they do not think should happen  ie rail investment  ,they are even going against other public developments.HS2 is and will continue to be a contentious project it has been around a long time has upset many  villages and towns all building up a wall of opinion against an otherwise important project. I would imagine many people in the corridors of power wish this line had never been planned our local mp is against the line and regularly makes statements as to what should happen without setting out what should happen to the works if abandoned as have many others.  HS2 will be finished and then as it does its job will be used and forgotten by all the protestors as they will be protesting about something else . 

[Dunsignalling]

28 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

People don't only travel for business!

 

Indeed, the stats show that on a national level, trips made for leisure have rebounded more quickly than ones for business - and thats in spite of industrial disputes. With those disputes now over their is opportunities for further growth in the leisure market - particularly if the Government stopped obsessing with cuts and realised that to grow any business you have to spend money on it first and promotions like discounted fares (as was done last year) would do wonders to help

 

Furthermore science is continuing to shed light on just how much interactions between people are driven by hidden things - as much as humans might like to pretend otherwise attributes like smell and body language / posture make a huge difference to happiness and productivity.  In short human beings are genetically wired to actually want real person - person interactions!

 

As such predictions of doom and gloom - plus that electronic gizmos will mean we can spends the rest our lives living in a small box in glorious isolation are not going to come to pass.

 

 

 

Groan.... how many times do we have to say it - THE JUSTIFICATION FOR HS2 IS NOT SPEED - ITS CAPACITY!

 

Just because some politicians got over excited and wanted to play at having bigger balls than other nations does not mean HS2 is redundant as a concept! Yes rail usage did plummet during the pandemic but if you take a long term view, what with climate change etc then rail should be being pushed and there will come a time when the WCML becomes full up once again!

 

As has been explained at some depth many times, expansion of the existing WCML would be horrendously disruptive and affect hundreds of thousands more people as you expand existing railway boundaries through urban areas.

 

Even if it was being built as a 125mph railway the route chosen wouldn't vary that much - even on a 'conventional' railway, making it as straight as possible and building it through areas with a low population are still sound. The main savings would come from things like smaller tunnel diameters and the types of railway equipment chosen to use on the route.

 

Yes upgrading and electrification of current routes is needed - but that is NOT a viable alternative to the core problem HS2 is being built to solve and should be pursed in tandem with HS2 - not instead of it!

 

But if HS2 had been designed as a practical 125mph way of increasing north-south rail capacity rather than a willy-waving prestige exercise, more of it would be built for the money spent, and we'd be likely to see the capacity benefits ten or fifteen years earlier!

 

Yes, it'll get you to Birmingham 15 or so minutes quicker that the WCML currently does (if your train hasn't been cancelled). However, it would still do that at 125mph, simply because when it opens, WCML schedules will be lengthened to accommodate extra stops.   

 

Once shortened back to the Birmingham-London shuttle plus Manchester eventually (but don't hold your breath), the higher speed in no way justifies the extra cost and complication. Maybe HS2 will ultimately reach the real North of England, but the first bit (and all the trains built to run on it) will probably be worn out by then. 

 

John

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Phil Parker]

23 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Furthermore science is continuing to shed light on just how much interactions between people are driven by hidden things - as much as humans might like to pretend otherwise attributes like smell and body language / posture make a huge difference to happiness and productivity.  In short human beings are genetically wired to actually want real person - person interactions!

 

An important point. There are loads of people online parroting the line "People don't need to travel for business, they can do it all by email and Zoom." as a reason not to build HS2. That's fine for them. They can sit at home in their room and never have another human interaction again. Me, I need to meet people. I get more done face-to-face. The conversations flow better and you get to cover side issues rather than just the topic of the meeting.

 

British Airways used to have a commerical comparing sales people who travelled, and ones who did it all by email. Physically turning up at a client's business says a lot more about how much you care about them. In the advert, the travellers got the contract. I think there is a lot of truth in this.

[Phil Parker]

4 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

You make some very valid points but we live in a society that has access to a media that basically stirs up opinions against projects they do not think should happen  ie rail investment  ,they are even going against other public developments.HS2 is and will continue to be a contentious project it has been around a long time has upset many  villages and towns all building up a wall of opinion against an otherwise important project. I would imagine many people in the corridors of power wish this line had never been planned our local mp is against the line and regularly makes statements as to what should happen without setting out what should happen to the works if abandoned as have many others.  HS2 will be finished and then as it does its job will be used and forgotten by all the protestors as they will be protesting about something else . 

 

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

But if HS2 had been designed as a practical 125mph way of increasing north-south rail capacity rather than a willy-waving prestige exercise, more of it would be built for the money spent, and we'd be likely to see the capacity benefits ten or fifteen years earlier!

 

You could design it to be 5mph powered by donkeys and there would be objections. People who don't want their view disturbed, don't care how fast the train goes. We have new cycle paths being built locally, and the paper is full of protest letters showing mug alongside the path as thought it's the end of the world. Ignoring the fact that the mud will soon be grass, but then facts don't matter.