HS2

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

i live in south London, with parents in north manchester.

ive never considered HS2 to be in my catchment area.

 

I can be half way up the M40 before I’d reach central London, driving around Birmingham vs Old Oak, navigating Manchester vs Stafford and drinking a cup of tea by the time HS2 arrived in Piccadilly. Connections from here arent much better.

 

Of course driving with 2, or 3 would make the financials a no brainer.

HS2 is pointless without local connections, Old Oak may as well be a desert island for the connections it offers to anyone not on the EL.

 

 

It's also a desert island as far as some of those who live on the Liz Line are cconcerned.  Without delving I reckon teh tipping point might be around the Maidenhead area.  antone living east of there whowants to get to the centre of Birmingham or a connection back from Moor St towards - probably as far as Solihull will get a quicker journey via OOC.  Ant yone living west of Maidenhead and getting on Liz Line trains will have a quicker journey time via Reading and XC  which also gives better connection within the one station at New S and Crewe ply us connections definitely to Warwick and maybe north of there via Leamington.

 

Only drawback with using XC is taht many trains are quite well loaded and I doubt HS2 will make the slightest difference to that.  anyone living anywhere on the GWML Reading and west thereof would simply be making a longer, and more expensive, journey to Birmingham (and onward connections) if they were stupid enough to go via OOC.  A route via London is already a nonsense from. Swindon, or Bristol, or Newport for anyone travelling to Birmingham (or Crewe etc) and that won't change.  And anyone whothinks it will is not living in commonsense land or is unable to read a railway timetable.

 

The LizLine connection at OOC really only works for folk living in (certain parts of) London

[C126]

6 hours ago, APOLLO said:

So it's batten down the hatches time for us all, HS2 or not it seems.

 

Bad reports coming out of USA, China, Europe re money also. Digital identities and CBDC (Central Bank Digital Currencies), Programmable Money etc being actively introduced and planned (Allowing total control of your spending).

Be careful with Digital Currency's also. 

 

I'm no expert on finance but I do know as a retired gas engineer (40+ years) that energy, cost and availability is key to everyone and everything. And we (UK) are NOT self sufficient anymore. Continue to use gas for heating etc for as long as possible (well I would say that !!). Electricity will get eye wateringly expensive, and rationed etc soon (see smart meter thread).

 

Get out of debt as much as possible, spread your savings around several banks etc, look after yourself, family, friends and neighbours.

 

Not time yet to "doom monger" prep, but be aware of events as they unfold, be savvy, have plans (A, B, C & D - (lights out)), and if needed act quick.

 

Brit15

 

Blimey!  better watch 'Threads' again and finish that model Goods Yard, before we are all dressed in rags and eating each other.

 

(A weak attempt to bring a little levity to the proceedings.)

[APOLLO]

in the beginning - The government started creation of HS2 via an Act of Parliament

the first day- blight was created as land was bought

the second day - the TBM's and gantry cranes were assembled

the third day - dry land, seas, plants and trees were dug up

the fourth day - many overpaid managers were rejoicing

the fifth day - creatures that live in the sea and creatures that fly and all Great Crested Newts were relocated

the sixth day - Finally humans living many miles away, were getting fed up and angry

by day seven - Rishy, with his work of creation very much unfinished and in tatters, rested at the proposed works end Mancunium, cancelling most future creation with much pontification making the seventh day one of many, many more great promises, much the same as the first one,

 

Incidentally, Samsara, a fundamental concept in all Indian religions, is linked to the karma theory and refers to the belief that all living beings cyclically go through births and rebirths. Seems to apply to UK Railway building also !!

 

Brit15

[melmerby]

10 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Whilst "Clifton South" is the name of the current P&R site at the end of the existing line, I believe there are/were plans to extend that route into the large housing development now being constructed beyond that point to the east of the A453. Perhaps that is what "Clifton South" is supposed to refer to.

Indeed, a quick Google found the extension was paused in 2021 and there's is now hope money from this so called "pot" could be forthcoming to do it.

[martin_wynne]

I'm a confused traveller. Please help.

 

At present I can get a train from home and arrive at Birmingham Moor Street. I walk across the platform and get a Chiltern service to Marylebone. Which looks like London when I get there.

 

Or I could walk across the road, instead of the platform, to Curzon Street. And get a super fast service to Old Oak Common. Where is that? Is it London?

 

Martin.

[The Stationmaster]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Since 1948 the provision of “premium” has always come with a premium… Gatex, Hex, SEHS…

Peak and offpeak is itself a premium.

 

or put it another way, if some Avanti services still exist from Euston, to other stations served by HS2, how will they compete if price isnt a factor ?

You're starting from the worng premise - having no doubt been  listening to all the garbage promulgated over the years about this ill-named railway.

 

HS2 is actaully the WCML Fast Lines relief route.  It will take the long distance Fast Lines train off the WCML.  They might (or ideally mght not) be things which can travel at stupidly hogh speeds on HS 2 but they will still be London to Birmingham or Manchrester or Gasgow or Liverpool express passenger trains making few if any intermediate stops south of Crewe (or Brmingham for those which go that way or terminate there).

 

 

As a result of amjor clearout on the Fast Lines two things are possible 

1. The udage of theh often over-crowded Slow Lines can be spread more evenly over the four running lines instead of just having to use two.

2. Because of the removal of probably the most critical speed/stopping pattern differentials it becomes simpler to run a two line railway for major engineering work.

 

Add in the fact that WCML track capacity occupation has exploded exponentially over the past 30 years or so there is a greater need for more maintenance work (e.g. tamping)  in any case plus the speed differential makes it very difficult to run a 2 line railway to allow engineering work.  Don't forget the southern end of the WCML is the probably still the busiest main line in Britain and it is still ahead of the GWML as the busiest mixed traffic main line in Britain.

 

Presenting HS2 as some sort of sooper d00per high speed route was a politrical and practical mistake of the sort that only politicos and DafT can make.  Trouble is what is happening now will react on the WCML for  2 -3 decades to come and then again every 2-3 decades after that.  But of course dumbo politicos are too thick to understand that.  So a simple bit of advice. -  if in a few years time your train on the WCML to the north west  is cancelled because of track renewal work don't even blame NR - it is a cancellation resulting from a decision made this year by an idiot politician.

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

You're starting from the worng premise - having no doubt been  listening to all the garbage promulgated over the years about this ill-named railway.

I’m approaching it from a bankrupt country, looking for commercial avenues to exploit to make it attractive perspective.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

I once saw a documentary from the 60’s about nuclear power having the ultimate inention of providing electricity for free.

Edited October 6, 2023 by adb968008

[melmerby]

11 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

Or I could walk across the road, instead of the platform, to Curzon Street. And get a super fast service to Old Oak Common. Where is that? Is it London

You walk along the pedestrian link from Moor Street Station to Curzon Street Station forecourt. (If it doesn't get scrapped with everything else as being too expensive.)

In that case you leave Moor Street Station, turn right, walk a short distance, turn right again and you are at Curzon Street Station.

No road crossing involved.

[Stephen Freeman]

It's a long  time since I travelled to London by train, and when I did, it was always quicker (I think) to not go via Birmingham, I can walk to the local station, change at Crewe and be at  Euston in a relatively short time, HS2 would have been absolutely no use to me but that wasn't the reason it was supposed to be built and that hasn't changed. It is just not politically expedient at least at the moment.

[black and decker boy]

52 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

But Phase 2A is listed as  cancelled Phil - so HS 2 will not be going anywhere beyond Birmingham.

Even the government are stressing that HS2 will still meet the WCML at Delta junction (assume that’s Handsacre) and thence up the Trent Valley.

 

this moves the congestion hot spot onto the Trent Valley rather than relieve it.

 

all those Manchester / Liverpool to Brum services will remain where they are now and distinctly not HS.

 

The approaches to the northern cities will remain as clogged and prone to delays as now. Freight & logistics will still struggle for paths.

 

but it’s ok, Milton Keynes, Watford etc will gain extra stopping services.

[Johann Marsbar]

39 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Indeed, a quick Google found the extension was paused in 2021 and there's is now hope money from this so called "pot" could be forthcoming to do it.

 

The magic word seems to be could - not that it's any surprise.....

 

£1.5 billion for East Midlands City Region Mayor: Transforming transport for 2.2 million people living in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. The new Combined Authority could use the funding to extend the Nottingham Tram system to serve Gedling and Clifton South and connect Derby to East Midlands Parkway with a Bus Rapid Transit System.  

 

The Gedling extension - along the former colliery branch - was another one banded around a few years back along with other such locations as Ripley and Ilkeston.

[The Stationmaster]

34 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Even the government are stressing that HS2 will still meet the WCML at Delta junction (assume that’s Handsacre) and thence up the Trent Valley.

 

this moves the congestion hot spot onto the Trent Valley rather than relieve it.

 

all those Manchester / Liverpool to Brum services will remain where they are now and distinctly not HS.

 

The approaches to the northern cities will remain as clogged and prone to delays as now. Freight & logistics will still struggle for paths.

 

but it’s ok, Milton Keynes, Watford etc will gain extra stopping services.

But that's not what the Govt maps show nor do their words regarding cancellation of HS2 fit with that.  As I understand 'Deta K junction is simply the triangular junction for the HS 2 two norther and southern sections to link with each other and for both to link to Curzon Street - it is a junction. 

 

Handsacre is the name - I now find - of the junction with the Trent Valley Line near Lichfield,  Maps showed that the northern end of 2A was actually supposed to link with the WCNML in the vicinity of Madeley,  So apologies it's not quite as bad as I thought but it isn't much better.

 

 So as it is Pahse 1still joins the WCML south of the  critical double line section through Shugborough Tunnel.  Both that and the junction at Stafford would be avoided by 2A.  The capacity constraint which is avoided is on the quadruple track section south of Hanslope Jcn but that only makes sense if more of the Fast Line trains would use HS2 and obviously Old Oak station hasn'r got the turnround capacity to handle all of them and  it would have to be very route specific in terms of trains to avoid passengers being confused over their train running from either Old Oak or Euston.  So you could logically move all the Birminghams to Old Oak but has it also got thecaopacity to take, say, all the Manchesters as well?

 

Unless the London terminus can handle the turnrounds and turnround servicing it won't do the job HS 2 was meant to do.  And neither will the failure to build section 2A to join the WCML north of Stafford.  What is left will simply n be an unattractive - for many people - route from somewhere in West London to Birmingham.

[corneliuslundie]

I don't understand those who say that Phase 1 will not help services to Crewe, Manchester etc.

If, as has been stated several times above there will be a link to the line to the north at Handsacre, then those services will use HS2 rather than the WCML. This will be more reliable because it will not be clogged up with stopping and freight services. And if/when the Euston link is built it will be a bit faster. As now they will not stop at Birmingham.

Please, this is not a "premium" railway, even if it will be a bit faster than existing lines (which merely reflects modern railway technology). It is purely about extra capacity. And despite what is being suggested, there has been no official suggestion that there will be fares any different from those on the existing fast services - since it will simply replace existing services.

I do, however, despair about whoever created those big posters saying something along the lines of "Live in Birmingham, work in Manchester, play in London", as it selling  exactly the wrong message.

Please don't believe those who are saying that reduced commuting will make HS2 unnecessary. Commuting may be down (though as I understand it is rising again as many organisations want their staff back in the office) but leisure travel is on the increase (or was until recently) and our main lines are very busy. That is actually a good thing as commuter services are very uneconomic. And please read what Stationmaster has written a few posts above.

Jonathan

Edited October 6, 2023 by corneliuslundie

[EddieB]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

"Look on my works, ye mighty and despair" seems increasingly relevant 

I think it was Flaubert who noted that the severed colossal head of Rameses attracted little more than pigeon droppings.

 

How are the mighty fallen.

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

Even the government are stressing that HS2 will still meet the WCML at Delta junction (assume that’s Handsacre) and thence up the Trent Valley.....

 

 

48 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

......As I understand 'Detla junction is simply the triangular junction for the HS 2 two northern and southern sections to link with each other and for both to link to Curzon Street - it is a junction. 

 

Handsacre is the name - I now find - of the junction with the Trent Valley Line near Lichfield,  

 

Phase 1, which is under construction, goes to Handsacre, about 3.5 miles south of Rugeley Station and 3.9 miles north of Lichfield Trent Staton.

So, a fair way north of Birmingham.

 

The "Delta junction, is at Water Orton, to the east of Birmingham, where a branch comes off HS2, leading into the centre of Birmingham at Curzon St.

Looking at maps, you'll see that the main HS2 route, bypasses Birmingham to the east.

The Delta junction consists of a series of grade separated, or flying junctions, allowing access to the Birmingham branch, from both north and south.

There was to be a further grade separated junction just to the north of the Delta junction, serving the now completely cancelled eastern spur.

 

 

.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

I don't understand those who say that Phase 1 will not help services to Crewe, Manchester etc.

If, as has been stated several times above there will be a link to the line to the north at Handsacre, then those services will use HS2 rather than the WCML.

Because OOC cannot take the required level of service (it is designed as an exchange station not a terminus), a good proprotion of WCML fasts will still need to go to Euston via the WCML until ,or if,  Euston HS2 is built.

This negates the whole object of HS2 which is to take all the fasts off the WCML.

 

An incomprehensible decision from an out of touch administration.

 

 

[nick_bastable]

Given HS1 charges extra beyond Ashford I suspect HS2 or what ever they now call it will be similar

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by nick_bastable
pps

[Mark Saunders]

I would hate to be the person in 100 years time who writes the history of HS2 and the associated blame game involved!

[DenysW]

This is still more rumours/assertions, but I've seen several claims that abandoning stages 2A and 2A will require new primary legislation (both houses of Parliament), which may not attract the required voting support in the time available.

 

This probably doesn't make a right-now difference, with maybe the exception of the ability to sell-off assets required to clear the path for the route(s). I'm reminded of the Midland being forced to build Settle-Carlisle even after it had agreed to place nice with the LNWR at Ingleton, removing the need.

[Northmoor]

23 hours ago, mac1960 said:

My point was to free up freight paths and run them overnight rather than during rush hour. I have a colleague who spent the early 90, s recession doing a GC survey for a large main contractor / bank. The freight route was interesting as single track with long loops. Still a lot lot cheaper than any of the money squandered on HS2. 

That scheme was scuppered by the MPs for the same Bucks constituencies who have been so against HS2.

 

As for freight at night, what if the freight customers don't want their goods to depart or arrive in the middle of the night?

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Since 1948 the provision of “premium” has always come with a premium… Gatex, Hex, SEHS…

Peak and offpeak is itself a premium.

 

or put it another way, if some Avanti services still exist from Euston, to other stations served by HS2, how will they compete if price isnt a factor ?

Premium WCML fares already exist.  A colleague commutes from Rugby to Euston.  He can travel on different fares using the slower services (as well as fares varying within/without the rush hours), so would already be paying a premium for the faster Avanti service, which is what will be - or now, some of it will be - diverted onto HS2.

[ruggedpeak]

1 minute ago, Northmoor said:

Premium WCML fares already exist.  A colleague commutes from Rugby to Euston.  He can travel on different fares using the slower services (as well as fares varying within/without the rush hours), so would already be paying a premium for the faster Avanti service, which is what will be - or now, some of it will be - diverted onto HS2.

I have used the cheap route to Crewe from Euston riding a London Midland EMU on various non-WCML stretches of track. Was a while ago going to a DRS open day but was a lot cheaper than the mainline.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said:

I would hate to be the person in 100 years time who writes the history of HS2 and the associated blame game involved!

AI will do it, reading threads like this.

 

 

[adb968008]

42 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

I have used the cheap route to Crewe from Euston riding a London Midland EMU on various non-WCML stretches of track. Was a while ago going to a DRS open day but was a lot cheaper than the mainline.

It was definitely more fun doing it on a class 304, 310 but it took all day to do a round trip, with changes.

Edited October 6, 2023 by adb968008

[m0rris]

1 hour ago, DenysW said:

This is still more rumours/assertions, but I've seen several claims that abandoning stages 2A and 2A will require new primary legislation (both houses of Parliament), which may not attract the required voting support in the time available.

 

This probably doesn't make a right-now difference, with maybe the exception of the ability to sell-off assets required to clear the path for the route(s). I'm reminded of the Midland being forced to build Settle-Carlisle even after it had agreed to place nice with the LNWR at Ingleton, removing the need.

 

The Speaker is likely to blow a lid on parliament's return and I doubt he'll be in any mood for doing them favours. I do wonder how much protection that will offer 2a though. Given the farcical manner in which this has been delivered, I would be entirely unsurprised if they had failed to take this into account.